Tour de France Tour de France 2023, stage 14: Annemasse - Morzine, 151.8k

[Danskebjerge]

I'ts not the blame people take issue with, it's you saying Pogacar "alledgedly" got blocked, when it was clear for all to see it happened.

They don't block you when they can't move, god dammit. I'm not blocking anyone behind me when I'm standing in a queue and have no chance of moving out of their way.

If there is any blame to place, it should be regarding the way the situation is organized - not me, nor the motorbikes!

 

[SHAD0W93]

They don't block you when they can't move, god dammit. I'm not blocking anyone behind me when I'm standing in a queue and have no chance of moving out of your way.

If there is any blame to place, it should be regarding the way the situation is organized - not me, nor the motorbikes!

While not at fault for being blocked, the motorbikes of their own volition or order to, could have moved to the side considering how close both were to the bikes and how important the bonus seconds are.

 

[Boehmand]

They don't block you when they can't move, god dammit. I'm not blocking anyone behind me when I'm standing in a queue and have no chance of moving out of your way.

If there is any blame to place, it should be regarding the way the situation is organized - not me, nor the motorbikes!

Yes they do.

When there is a carcrash on the road, it blocks traffic - the people crashing didn't mean to block traffic, but they are blocking it nonetheless.

Again - it's not about assigning blame, it's about you denying there was a block at all.

 

[topt]

If Pogacar had something extra, he could have just gone again when the motos were clear, instead Vingegaard pulled the rope-a-dope on him, so I don't really see it as significant.

But as with all "alternative history" debates, it is entirely impossible to prove one way or the other.

yeah, you just push a button, dont know what is so hard

 

[Andy262]

Playing catch up but stage utterly wrecked by motos.

 

[Boehmand]

yeah, you just push a button, dont know what is so hard

Dude, it was an accelleration of 10 metres, and not even a big one.

Also Pogacar has eyes in his head, so he should be wise to the motos not being able to speed up rapidly at that point.

I agree it should not have happened, predominantly because ASO should have fenced off the road, but the notion that it had a big impact on the race I simply don't buy.

 

[ChewbaccaDefense]

While not at fault for being blocked, the motorbikes of their own volition or order to, could have moved to the side considering how close both were to the bikes and how important the bonus seconds are.

Yeah, but lets be honesty, Teddy loves motorbikes to be close on most days...

 

[skippo12]

Dude, it was an accelleration of 10 metres, and not even a big one.

Also Pogacar has eyes in his head, so he should be wise to the motos not being able to speed up rapidly at that point.

I agree it should not have happened, predominantly because ASO should have fenced off the road, but the notion that it had a big impact on the race I simply don't buy.

Probably decided the sprint for bonus seconds. Pog did not play it smart but once he was in front he was at a disadvantage.

 

[ChewbaccaDefense]

Playing catch up but stage utterly wrecked by motos.

...no, it wasn't...jebus...Jonas almost certainly would have covered Teddy's attack that was muted by the motos...as evidenced by the fact that Jonas won the sprint for the KOM, and was 3mm behind Teddy at the finish. It was a great stage.

 

[Cookster15]

Well, I say advantage Pogacar. Today was supposed to be a Vingegaard day. Yet we saw Pog attacking Vingegaard. The fact Pogacar was attacking Vingegaard at all on Joux Plane on a hottish day speaks volumes. But we still have tomorrow, stage 17 to 2,400 metres and the TT.

Don't forget with his delayed prep due to his LBL crash, Pog should be getting ever stronger. This is likely why Vingo couldn't crack him today. Pog seemed to follow on Joux Plane with ease. This bodes well for tomorrow and Vingegaard can't assume he won't lose time on the TT if Pog keeps improving like this.

 

[Danskebjerge]

While not at fault for being blocked, the motorbikes of their own volition or order to, could have moved to the side considering how close both were to the bikes and how important the bonus seconds are.

The motorbikes were there, they were sometimes right up the noses of the riders, and the crowd was there, the crowd was very close to the riders, too. There was very little space for overtaking. That was the circumstances (which may be citicized). But the riders were - of course - aware of all this and knew that both the motorbikes and the crowd had to be taken into account on the way up the climb. This included the motorbikes not being able to accelerate freely because of people on the road in front of them.

 

[Boehmand]

Probably decided the sprint for bonus seconds. Pog did not play it smart but once he was in front he was at a disadvantage.

He could have dropped back behing Vingegaard instantly, or he could have kicked from the front when the motos cleared, to stay ahead to the line.

He lost the bonus because he was inattentive for a moment, when Vingegaard went.

 

[Boehmand]

The motorbikes were there, they were sometimes right up the noses of the riders, and the crowd was there, the crowd was very close to the riders, too. There was very little space for overtaking. That was the circumstances (which may be citicized). But the riders were - of course - aware of all this and knew that both the motorbikes and the crowd had to be taken into account on the way up the climb. This included the motorbikes not being able to accelerate freely because of people on the road in front of them.

Glad you now - at long last - agree the riders were blocked from riding freely by the motos

 

[ChewbaccaDefense]

Jumbo spent energy for Vinge to drop Pog, just like on stage 5 and 6.

I cede the point. Jumbo indicated that they did want to drop Pog today:
"We are happy with how we did, we are happy with how the team and I performed," Vingegaard said, however. "Once again I wanted to say thanks to all my teammates, they really hard today and they did amazing once again."

"It was not what we wanted, but Jonas fought for that really well," Maassen said.

 

[Gratemans]

I only watched the race.
Now I'm just catching up on this thread. It's mostly people trying to convince themselves that their hero will win, while pretending to actually interact with others on a forum

 

[ChewbaccaDefense]

I only watched the race.
Now I'm just catching up on this thread. It's mostly people trying to convince themselves that their hero will win, while pretending to actually interact with others on a forum

...well, yeah...but you have to retain hope, until they rip the hope from your fingers...and as much as I want Jonas to win, I still stick with my assessment of the prior days, and say that Pog is the strongest, and will win.

 

[KZD]

Disappointing stage for Pogačar. He was unlucky with the motos on Jeux Plane but couldn't have lost the bonus seconds anyway. Its becoming more clear that he isn't a top descender and sadly for him neither is Adam Yates who did a surprisingly good performance anyway. Still for all the work Jumbo did, they only gained one second on him so not bad, I guess.

Rodriguez with the biggest win of his career, I keep my believe that Ayuso is a bigger talent overall but Rodriguez is GT winning material if Movistar doesn't waste him.

Great stage for Felix Gall too, he may be a terrible TTer, bad descender but he is an awesome climber and even with the TT ahead top10 should be within his reach. Also GC Kuss is a real thing at this Tour. If he keeps like that I am starting to believe in top5 especially given that Simon Yates had a bad day and Hindley was not great either (possibly the crash played a role for him).

 

[RobertCrawley]

@UAE-TeamEmirates

 

[D. Pecher]

Der Spiegel (Germany) just reported that the two moto crews who blocked Pogacars attack 500m from the summit have been banned from the 15th stage and been whacked with a 500 Swiss Francs fine each.

 

[Big Doopie]

I have no idea why he thought Vinge wouldn’t try and take time on him but he was still surprised by it. Leading up to the jump it had looked like they were fine to ride together because of the motos, which is ludicrous when the race is between seconds for them. Maybe Pog forgot about the seconds in his frustration and tiredness. The point being argued is Pog would have won the bonus seconds like he’s done everytime in the past. Not that he’d drop Vinge.

i hope we can agree to disagree. the moto hindrance stalled Pog but still quite a ways from the line. if he could, he would have sprinted and beat Vingo as he has always done. however, to me, he seemed slow to recover. just how i observed it.

(I’ve never said that to be fair.)

oh i was not in anyway intimating that you have. i was just joking about something that is now a forum meme (had nothing to do with you personally - I was trying to indicate that by using the parentheses).

 

[DNP-Old]

Anyone with half a brain could see that Dani Martinez didn't look so good and was likely suffering from a concussion. In not so surprising news.... he was. This is an absolute joke. Riders will complain about the slightest inconvenience, Adam Hansen will run to Twitter for the smallest disturbance, but when push comes to shove they'll look the other way when there is actual reason to.

 

[Big Doopie]

Just like that he didnt let Yates ride for 2nd place. (he could have gotten more boni seconds compared to ving that way and/or let ving drive him to line if Ving understood maths).

i don't think that was ever in the cards.

yates was more tired than either of them having just come back.

Vingo was likely resigned to finish behind Pog in a flat sprint (or most any sprint), so there was absolutely no way he was going to let Yates fly away (even if Pog did). He would just have chased Yates down and beaten him in the sprint fairly easily I imagine. Pog would have come around both of them no doubt, thus finishing in the same result.

Once Rodriguez had flown the coop (to Vingo's benefit), there is no doubt in my mind that Vingo knew he was limiting bonus gain by Pog and no matter what Pog tried to let Yates do, that was never ever happening.

 

[D. Pecher]

The German commentators of ARD were convinced that Yates came back late to actually lead out the final sprint for Pogacar against Vingegaard

 

[Gratemans]

...well, yeah...but you have to retain hope, until they rip the hope from your fingers...and as much as I want Jonas to win, I still stick with my assessment of the prior days, and say that Pog is the strongest, and will win.

Personally, I'm still not sure who's stronger. I just see a lot of people theorycrafting here. They try to keep a facade of objectivity but all I see is wishful thinking.

Imo it's still completely open. Maybe it's easy for me as I don't have a clear favourite between the two, but I just enjoy the battle. I don't know, I don't mean to nag, but why can't some people just enjoy the battle without talking up their own hero or putting down the other guy.

 

[D. Pecher]

Personally, I'm still not sure who's stronger. I just see a lot of people theorycrafting here. They try to keep a facade of objectivity but all I see is wishful thinking.

Imo it's still completely open. Maybe it's easy for me as I don't have a clear favourite between the two, but I just enjoy the battle. I don't know, I don't mean to nag, but why can't some people just enjoy the battle without talking up their own hero or putting down the other guy.

From what it looked like, especially with pogacar only taking micro-bites out of V's time, they seem to be almost equal with the difference being that Pogacar is a tad more explosive. All of the small gains he made were basically just him getting a small gap and then vingegaard matching him but not quite able to come back, like on the Puy de Dome.