Tour de France Tour de France 2023, stage 2: Vitoria-Gasteiz - Donostia/San Sebastián, 208.9k

[DNP-Old]

Yeah he was only leading by 4 minutes at the time with the strongest team in the race behind him and only a TT to go he was certain to win anyway

Cool story bro. I'm merely answering the question.

 

[titan31]

It would be one thing if this was Vingegaard against Hindley, Gaudu, Yates brothers etc, just he's up against Pogacar, he can't afford be wasting effort working for a teammate here. He can do that in the other stage or one day races but not here, and honestly Jumbo shouldn't be selecting someone who's got higher priorities than helping Vingegaard win GC.

 

[Pippo_San]

Every time WVA comes in 2nd the cycling world becomes a better place.

 

[HelloDolly]

Never forget Contadors failed sprint leadout for Bennati in Paris.

Wiggins did for Cavendish, and not just on the Champs.

you will notice I said at the beginning of the Tour ????

not in Paris when the Tour is won (or lost)

 

[KZD]

Okay couple of serious thoughts

- If you say Vingegaard should have ridden with Pog, you can't also say he should've worked for Van Aert because evidently the stage doesn't matter
- Just because Van Aert was the favorite to win this stage, doesn't mean Jumbo should've won this 100% of the time. Cycling doesn't work like that.
- Kelderman not responding to Lafay is just because he's already worked a lot and his legs are fried.
- Vingegaard not pulling after he stops being boxed in is 100% something DS' should have made up their mind about 5km from the finish.
- Vingegaard gets criticized more for not pulling than Roglic did in Catalunya. Must be solely because Pogacar is popular.
- Moto drafting was insane on the Jaizkibel and probably half the reason it was as selective as it was.
- Pogacar didn't look that easy on Jaizkibel, you'd expect him to win that sprint way more easily than he did.
- Van Aert did way too much work himself on the descent. That *** made no sense whatsoever.

Not just Pogacar is more popular than Vingegaard, Roglic is also more popular than Vingegaard, I would say.

 

[frisenfruitig]

Yeah he was only leading by 4 minutes at the time with the strongest team in the race behind him and only a TT to go he was certain to win anyway

Let's say Vingegaard does one pull and Wout wins the stage. You think he is suddenly going to lose the TDF against Pogacar because he hit the front one time?

 

[dobrien]

The NBC commentators are doing fine. Sam Bewley and Brent Bookwalter are nice additions to the team. I wish Christian VdV saw more screen time, however.

Maybe it's just my natural antipathy to guys in suits... just can't watch it. I'd prefer commentary in Dutch (which I don't speak... )

 

[Ricco']

This Tour had already more drama and entertainment in 2 days than the whole Giro in 21, how the tables have turned

 

[Andy schleck]

Every time WVA comes in 2nd the cycling world becomes a better place.

It's a problem when the two belgians WVA or remco don't get the first place. His fans point the finger at everyone.

 

[RobertCrawley]

It would be one thing if this was Vingegaard against Hindley, Gaudu, Yates brothers etc, just he's up against Pogacar, he can't afford be wasting effort working for a teammate here. He can do that in the other stage or one day races but not here, and honestly Jumbo shouldn't be selecting someone who's got higher priorities than helping Vingegaard win GC.

It's a balancing act.

Do you want Wout van Aert on your team when all chips are in and the entire race is on the line? Yes.

Do you need to allow him to achieve some of his own goals? Yes.

A good DS will figure it out, as they did last year, to win the race.

 

[Netserk]

I wonder when people will begin calling Vingegaard "selfish Vingegaard". His angst for hitting the front is getting ridiculous.

Did selfish Pogi ever do a leadout for Kristoff in the Tour?

 

[dobrien]

This Tour had already more drama and entertainment in 2 days than the whole Giro in 21, how the tables have turned.

As far as potential polemica is concerned, this Tour could rival the greatest Giro; looking forward to it!

 

[Baldinger]

Why are people so obsessed about Vingegaard not leading out WvA? It makes no sense. Jumbo let Kelderman and Bennot do a ton of work to get a stage win for WvA and that should be more than enough.

 

[jono]

Why are people so obsessed about Vingegaard not leading out WvA? It makes no sense. Jumbo let Kelderman and Bennot do a ton of work to get a stage win for WvA and that should be more than enough.

Why was Kelderman the last man for Wout? He does not strike me as the type that possesses a snappy leadout.

 

[tobydawq]

Did selfish Pogi ever do a leadout for Kristoff in the Tour?

I don't think there were very many situations where they would be in a situation where Kristoff would certainly win if he did

 

[Rob5091]

Chapeau Victor Layfay! Nicely done. Did Jumbo & UAE miss out? WvA is supposed to be not going for the Green Jersey so missing out on a sprint should n't matter. Pogacar picked up some more bonus seconds so he should be happy.
I can not decide if UAE will be so dominant they'll be like USPS or Sky, or if there'll be a big implosion and lots of finger pointing and wagging. Therein lies the entertainment!

 

[tobydawq]

Okay couple of serious thoughts


- Just because Van Aert was the favorite to win this stage, doesn't mean Jumbo should've won this 100% of the time. Cycling doesn't work like that.

Yeah, right. Of course he would have won...

 

[Baldinger]

Why was Kelderman the last man for Wout? He does not strike me as the type that possesses a snappy leadout.

More snappy than Benoot, that's for sure. But WvA should be perfectly able to do a final like this on his own.

 

[titan31]

It's a balancing act.

Do you want Wout van Aert on your team when all chips are in and the entire race is on the line? Yes.

Do you need to allow him to achieve some of his own goals? Yes.

A good DS will figure it out, as they did last year, to win the race.

When his goals clash with winning the Tour, the way to figure it out is not including him imo. He's here for stage wins, building to worlds and has said he'll leave if his wife has the baby early, and it's only after all that, that he's here to help Vingegaard. Jumbo have enough talent in their team that he should not have been selected tbh. Winning the Tour against Pogacar and UAE is too much of an ask already without someone there making it more difficult.

 

[frisenfruitig]

Why are people so obsessed about Vingegaard not leading out WvA? It makes no sense. Jumbo let Kelderman and Bennot do a ton of work to get a stage win for WvA and that should be more than enough.

Because it was the obvious thing to do when Kelderman clearly didn't have enough left to close that gap. And it was also pretty clear Benoot didn't have anything left either, he looked like he could drop dead at any moment.

Of course you could just watch your team mate lose but it's kind of a *** move if you ask me.

 

[Red Rick]

Yeah, right. Of course he would have won...

I guess there's absolutely 0 scenarios for them to lose then with about 17 riders from other teams there.

Reality is from like 2km onwards 3 different attacks might happen and Vingegaard can't close all 3 either.

 

[Grayguard]

Let's say Vingegaard does one pull and Wout wins the stage. You think he is suddenly going to lose the TDF against Pogacar because he hit the front one time?

Does it matter much to you?
JV needs to keep his focus on the GC. If the *rest* of the team, can help WvA secure a stage win - all cool.
JV shouldn't spend ANY energy doing anything which is NOT GC related.

 

[RobertCrawley]

When his goals clash with winning the Tour, the way to figure it out is not including him imo. He's here for stage wins, building to worlds and has said he'll leave if his wife has the baby early, and it's only after all that, that he's here to help Vingegaard. Jumbo have enough talent in their team that he should not have been selected tbh. Winning the Tour against Pogacar and UAE is too much of an ask already without someone there making it more difficult.

We'll have to agree to disagree. If I have a team in the Tour, I want Wout van Aert on my squad every time. I can see the value of an Postal Armstrong-type team where every single decision and move is laser-focused on the GC victory, but teams have won using other methods, like last year.

 

[tobydawq]

I guess there's absolutely 0 scenarios for them to lose then with about 17 riders from other teams there.

Reality is from like 2km onwards 3 different attacks might happen and Vingegaard can't close all 3 either.

If Vingegaard takes the wheel of Kelderman, he can respond to Lafay's attack and leave Wout at the front at 200 metres to go. How does Wout lose in that scenario?? Yes, he could puncture or kick his foot out of a pedal but is such a hypothetical a reason for Vingegaard not to chase?

 

[Red Rick]

If Vingegaard takes the wheel of Kelderman, he can respond to Lafay's attack and leave Wout at the front at 200 metres to go. How does Wout lose in that scenario??

To be fair, I would never tell my team leader to take Keldermans wheel