Tour de France Tour de France 2023, stage 2: Vitoria-Gasteiz - Donostia/San Sebastián, 208.9k

[Baldinger]

Because it was the obvious thing to do when Kelderman clearly didn't have enough left to close that gap. And it was also pretty clear Benoot didn't have anything left either, he looked like he could drop dead at any moment.

Of course you could just watch your team mate lose but it's kind of a *** move if you ask me.

Yes, Vingegaard could have done something for WvA, and perhaps it would have been for the best, but come on. Vingegaard did what all other GC contenders have done since forever. Other teams would't even have let Kelderman and Benoot work.

 

[titan31]

If Vingegaard takes the wheel of Kelderman, he can respond to Lafay's attack and leave Wout at the front at 200 metres to go. How does Wout lose in that scenario?? Yes, he could puncture or kick his foot out of a pedal but is such a hypothetical a reason for Vingegaard not to chase?

Tbf Wout winning means Pogacar gets 2nd and Vingegaard loses more time to him. Why should Vingegaard work to lose time?

 

[frisenfruitig]

Does it matter much to you?
JV needs to keep his focus on the GC. If the *rest* of the team, can help WvA secure a stage win - all cool.
JV shouldn't spend ANY energy doing anything which is NOT GC related.

They are also here to win some stages, otherwise they might as well have kept Wva at home. GC isn't the only thing that matters and again, por que no los dos? It's not like it would have been a big effort to do literally one pull.

 

[tobydawq]

Tbf Wout winning means Pogacar gets 2nd and Vingegaard loses more time to him. Why should Vingegaard work to lose time?

You can say that but if the team tactic is to go for the stage for Wout, it's pretty lame that Vingegaard doesn't work because it's then too risky to give Pogi two extra seconds.

 

[Netserk]

Both today and yesterday Vingegaard marked Pogi and allowed Van Aert to return, sacrificing his own opportunity to win the stages. But it’s clearly not enough. Everyone in the team must only ride for Van Aert.

 

[Armchair Cyclist]

I know, what the hell is that?

You're aware these aren't photo's of them actually on the podium? It's a stock photo with the jersey superimposed: he was probably going for a bit of Gallic insouciance.

 

[Rackham]

Tbf Wout winning means Pogacar gets 2nd and Vingegaard loses more time to him. Why should Vingegaard work to lose time?

But Jumbo (aka the team) were working for that exact scenario. That's the thing here, i.e. Kelderman was flogging himself on the front chasing Lafay precisely for that outcome (WvA stage win, Pog probably second).

So Jumbo "together" didn't commit fully to either strategy (i.e. all for GC & sit up as a team, whilst perhaps Van Aert attempts to go solo or something, or go for the stage with WvA via a team effort & risk losing bonus seconds).

 

[jono]

Skjelmose listed 23rd on the stage (Bettiol 24th, then the next group way down), despite finishing 6th. Haven't seen anything yet about him being relegated.

 

[titan31]

But Jumbo (aka the team) were working for that exact scenario. That's the thing here, i.e. Kelderman was flogging himself on the front chasing Lafay precisely for that outcome (WvA stage win, Pog probably second).

So Jumbo "together" didn't commit fully to either strategy (i.e. all for GC & sit up as a team, whilst perhaps Van Aert attempts to go solo or something, or go for the stage with WvA via a team effort & risk losing bonus seconds).

I agree though, two different objectives means you're likely to mess up both, and overall for the Tour is far more important than a stage win. It should be all for Vingegaard, not this split objective crap

 

[Nick2413]

This all happened in the span of about 20 seconds, it was chaos. Standing orders after the descent were probably for Vingegaard not to pull. Would only allow Pog the chance for a bigger bonus point split. They had 3 guys not named Vingegaard and couldn’t do it. Maybe next time they can have Wout be the one to attack since nobody can catch him if he gets a gap.

But all in all it was a chaotic situation, I don’t really see putting blame on anyone including Wout. The whole mindset at this point in the Tour is to play the long game, sure they won’t lose the Tour by Vingegaard pulling 500m but when decisions are made in split seconds this was probably the most instinctive decision. It’s not a guarantee he would’ve caught Lafay either, these are 800W surges on the flat.

 

[Riek s]

JV was clearly going for the stage win. If boni seconds mattered, they wouldn't have ridden behind Bilbao/skjelmose/ others.

They didn't care about boni seconds. So saying Ving should't ride with pog because of boni seconds is ***. If they cared about boni seconds, ving shouldn't have ridden, but neither should JV for WVA.

Can't blame people saying Ving could have taken a turn when they went for the win. If that 200meter pull in the final km would cost him the tour, he isn't qualified to win the tour imo. At some level WVA is a big componetn of the team, but also a cost. If WVA leavers earlier, that isn't a good scenario for Ving. But they will need to give him something... and today wasn't a gift.

 

[Dekker_Tifosi]

BTW, on WvA and MvdP, that many expected to dominate the first 4 days of the race.

I think we are seeing both start the Tour below their peak condition, in order to peak from the 2nd rest day and until Worlds is over.

Nah

WvA is pretty much where he always is in these stages.
MvdP, if he had tried today he'd been in the Alaphippe group, like yesterday. Which is also pretty accurate to his physical capabilities. I always said before the Tour that if they go full beans VdP has no chance. If they race a bit more calmly he does have a good shot.

It turned out exactly that way. I think today he realized pretty soon they were gonna go full again so he decided not even to contest (MvdP). It's fine. I think people underestimate either the Basque country roads or overestimate, once again, VDP's climbing capabilities if they expect him to be top favorite on such a course.

Van Aert pretty much was the only classics rider in the 1st group yesterday and today again one of the only ones..

 

[Jagartrott]

Both today and yesterday Vingegaard marked Pogi and allowed Van Aert to return, sacrificing his own opportunity to win the stages. But it’s clearly not enough. Everyone in the team must only ride for Van Aert.

Eh, what? So he first 'sacrifices' his own chances for Van Aert, then cannot take one pull to help Van Aert to stage victory? Does not compute. There's a much more simple reason for Vignegaard not working with Pogacar, and Van Aert has nothing to do with that.

 

[HelloDolly]

Pog doesn't need to drop Vingegaard in the mountains in order to win the Tour.

Yes he needs to stay (bonus seconds minus 1) within Vinge's time

 

[Valv.Piti]

Both today and yesterday Vingegaard marked Pogi and allowed Van Aert to return, sacrificing his own opportunity to win the stages. But it’s clearly not enough. Everyone in the team must only ride for Van Aert.

Yes, Vingegaard rode these stages to let Van Aert back into the race. Otherwise he would obviously have pushed towards the finish with Pogacar because thats just what he does, innit?

 

[HelloDolly]

Why was Kelderman the last man for Wout? He does not strike me as the type that possesses a snappy leadout.

nor a safe lead out either

 

[HelloDolly]

We'll have to agree to disagree. If I have a team in the Tour, I want Wout van Aert on my squad every time. I can see the value of an Postal Armstrong-type team where every single decision and move is laser-focused on the GC victory, but teams have won using other methods, like last year.

Last year UAE were not as strong imo

 

[Armchair Cyclist]

Why are people so obsessed about Vingegaard not leading out WvA? It makes no sense. Jumbo let Kelderman and Bennot do a ton of work to get a stage win for WvA and that should be more than enough.

No-one was surprised that Pogacar was 2nd to Van Aert in the main part of the sprint. That being predictable, then Vingegaard helping close the gap would have had
*potential benefit of stage victory for team, but they will expect plenty of others, WvA already has 9 so not a great bonus for his palmares
*potential cost of extra fatigue for himself (probably marginal), 2 extra bonus seconds to Pogacar (6 for 2nd rather than 4 for 3rd).

Now those 2 seconds might not be crucial in three weeks time (it will have been a hell of an exciting Tour if they are), but why expend energy to give them away?

 

[HelloDolly]

They are also here to win some stages, otherwise they might as well have kept Wva at home. GC isn't the only thing that matters and again, por que no los dos? It's not like it would have been a big effort to do literally one pull.

Ask Jumbo Visma team principles and I am pretty sure it is all abouit wining yellow and stage wins are not important

 

[Valv.Piti]

You are danish and you still prefer Pogi? Tough call

Nationality means very little in a sport such as cycling that Im very passionate about, and yes, I find Pogacar a lot more interesting as a cyclist, so I'll root for him. Last year, I rooted for Vingegaard because I wanted someone to upset Pogi and nationality certainly also played a role.

A sport like football is obviously much different to me.

 

[Red Rick]

Nah

WvA is pretty much where he always is in these stages.
MvdP, if he had tried today he'd been in the Alaphippe group, like yesterday. Which is also pretty accurate to his physical capabilities. I always said before the Tour that if they go full beans VdP has no chance. If they race a bit more calmly he does have a good shot.

It turned out exactly that way. I think today he realized pretty soon they were gonna go full again so he decided not even to contest (MvdP). It's fine. I think people underestimate either the Basque country roads or overestimate, once again, VDP's climbing capabilities if they expect him to be top favorite on such a course.

Van Aert pretty much was the only classics rider in the 1st group yesterday and today again one of the only ones..

I think it's fair to be disappointed he didn't even try. It's not like he has any chances in the next 4 stages.

 

[DaveJones2]

I think Vingegaard has made a significant mistake here in not taking a pull in the last 1km.

I think people are underestimating the importance of harmony within any team environment, cycling included. At some point in this tour Jonas is going to need Wout to go to his absolute physiological limit to help him compete (as very well demonstrated last year).

These small factors inevitably make a difference in how far teammates are prepared to go in putting themselves in a physically punishing & painful position. Going that final 1% is always going to be more than a case of simple "team orders". Taking a 200m pull would have been very notable in going "above and beyond" his expected GC leadership role and would have been a big, emotive story from this stage. Instead, at least 3 of his teammates have absolutely buried themselves today and the whole team have come away with nothing.

 

[frisenfruitig]

Ask Jumbo Visma team principles and I am pretty sure it is all abouit wining yellow and stage wins are not important

That's not at all what they say or have said in the past but perhaps you have missed the past 3 editions.

 

[Rackham]

Yes, Vingegaard rode these stages to let Van Aert back into the race. Otherwise he would obviously have pushed towards the finish with Pogacar because thats just what he does, innit?

Everyone is throwing their hat into the ring in terms of opinion about the stage, so here's mine:

If Vingegaard had worked with Pog after Jaizkibel, Adam Yates could have lost a minute. Who would have done the chasing in the group behind? And here's the funny part: Vinge (at worst) would have lost... 4 seconds against Pog. Which he did anyway.

I don't know, i.e. everyone is ripping each other to pieces on social media right now (a very hilarious bit of cycling drama tbh) over the help versus no help scenario which played out between Vingegaard & Van Aert but there's that third scenario which occurred a little earlier which might have produced a pretty good result for Jumbo, if they could 'accept' a Pog stage win as a lesser of evils.

Vinge could have distanced everyone who isn't Pogačar, namely Adam Yates.

 

[jono]

I think it's fair to be disappointed he didn't even try. It's not like he has any chances in the next 4 stages.

MVDP will be on super-leadout duty for the next two at least. Logical for him not to waste energy in a doomed effort.