Tour de France Tour de France 2023, stage 20: Belfort - Le Markstein, 133.5k

[Volderke]

First of all, congrats! That's a heck of a bike ride.

"Who has the ambition?" I know one who does and he knows every inch of the Petit Ballon. He lives nearby and it's his last shot in his last Tour.

Now I’m curious as i don’t have a clue who you are referring to…
Edit: I guess it’s Thibault Pinot…!

 

[RedheadDane]

The time of “Free Landa” is but a memory of a distant past. Age catching up?

"Free Landa... from being on tv."

Now I’m curious as i don’t have a clue who you are referring to…

French guy. Used to be considered the best bet for a French TdF win. Has a bunch of goats.

 

[Netserk]

Now I’m curious as i don’t have a clue who you are referring to…

The GOAT. The w(h)ine.

The one and only:

Spoiler

 

[Netserk]

I think Pogacar will want to win this really really badly but I don't know if he actually wants to go on an attack. Wouldn't be surprised if UAE tries to hold everything together to set up a Pogacar sprint.

I would love Gall in polka dots but wouldn't be mad about Ciccone either. Just not Vingegaard please.

Yeah, this won't end in a sprint.

Vingegaard by a minute. He is still lacking a road stage, so Jumbo better chase all day.

 

[Volderke]

133 km, what is that for a final stage? Pathetic. If this was a juniors race, ok, but the Tour? Fits in nicely in the TV spot I suppose and time for everyone to jet off to Paris.
Shame on you Prudhomme!

This was a very, very hard Tour that has brought all the possible entertainment. Most riders in the peloton are completely done.
Besides that, the stage is far from easy. It’s probably in the top 5 of hardest this Tour, not even accounting for it being late in the 3rd week.

 

[Izzyeviel]

Adam Yates to get in the breakaway and do an Oscar Pereiro.

 

[Rob5091]

This was a very, very hard Tour that has brought all the possible entertainment. Most riders in the peloton are completely done.
Besides that, the stage is far from easy. It’s probably in the top 5 of hardest this Tour, not even accounting for it being late in the 3rd week.

Well, if they ride the 5th fastest (non-TT) stage EVER yesterday, then being "completely done" takes on a whole new meaning!

 

[Volderke]

Well, if they ride the 5th fastest (non-TT) stage EVER yesterday, then being "completely done" takes on a whole new meaning!

So you had a Tour with short stages and action in almost every single stage from the gun.
The Tour was ridden incredibly hard, and ofcourse, some riders save themselves for certain stages to go all out (while others are just surviving).

You've got nothing to wish for. Still you complain about the length of this stage. Why? Do you want a lame waiting game? Aren't you enough entertained? Or are you just old-fashioned for no good reason at all?

 

[VayaVayaVaya]

I just realized that Vingegaard’s gap to Pogacar in second is larger than Froome’s final gap to the fifth place Kreuziger (behind Contador, who got destroyed). Wow.

 

[Netserk]

This was a very, very hard Tour that has brought all the possible entertainment. Most riders in the peloton are completely done.
Besides that, the stage is far from easy. It’s probably in the top 5 of hardest this Tour, not even accounting for it being late in the 3rd week.

Really? Harder than Laruns or Saint-Gervais?

Stage 20 of the 2019 Vuelta is the kind of hardness that we are some who would prefer:

No, it was not a boring waiting game.

 

[Volderke]

Really? Harder than Laruns or Saint-Gervais?

Top 5.
Harder than 1, 2, 3, 4, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 16, 18, 19, 21

on par with 5, but with a much harder finale.
Easier than 6, 14, 15, 17

 

[jaylew]

A Froome 18-19 would be fun.

 

[Netserk]

Top 5.
Harder than 1, 2, 3, 4, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 16, 18, 19, 21

on par with 5, but with a much harder finale.
Easier than 6, 14, 15, 17

It has 200 m less vertical gain, no HC climbs, and the last climb is easier than the last climb to Laruns. So you can only find one metric (where you include two climbs today but exclude the HC climb back then) where it comes out on top.

Of the 8 mountain stages of the race, it's the 6th hardest. Or 3rd easiest (only in front of two de facto uno-puerto stages).

 

[Rob5091]

So you had a Tour with short stages and action in almost every single stage from the gun.

Thank you for confirming what I wrote - short stages.

 

[Volderke]

Thank you for confirming what I wrote - short stages.

happily ignoring what I wrote, I see...

"You've got nothing to wish for. Still you complain about the length of this stage. Why? Do you want a lame waiting game? Aren't you enough entertained? Or are you just old-fashioned for no good reason at all?"

comments?

 

[staubsauger]

Alsace's history is much more complicated than described, good contributions nonetheless. It started with the treaty of Verdun in 843, a middle kingdom fought over until 1945. It could have been united under Charles the Bold/Rash had Emperor Frederick III not fled in the middle of the night before Charles planned coronation. To make things more complicated, many of these areas were the subject of Hapsburgs who were Kings of Spain. Until 1678 for my homeland.

There will be a Pinot gathering mixing fanatics and locals, his people, what an ending it would be. Allez Thibaut!

Fun Fact:

Straßburg actually is the most beautiful German old town / historic center because it's French!

In Germany it would have been ruined with concrete block buildings in the 70s. But to the French these pittoresque architecture is very meaningful and gets preserved.

 

[RedheadDane]

Thank you for confirming what I wrote - short stages.

Yes. Short stages. Luckily, short stages aren't a problem.

 

[gregrowlerson]

You and Red Rick actually disagreeing on something? I'll mark my calendar.

Clinic material?

 

[Volderke]

It has 200 m less vertical gain, no HC climbs, and the last climb is easier than the last climb to Laruns. So you can only find one metric (where you include two climbs today but exclude the HC climb back then) where it comes out on top.

Of the 8 mountain stages of the race, it's the 6th hardest. Or 3rd easiest (only in front of two de facto uno-puerto stages).

I have done the Soudet, Petit Ballon and Platzerwasel so I reckon I'm in some kind of a position to give my opinion.

1. the Laruns stage has the Soudet, which is essentially a 10.3K - 8% affair = 32-33 minutes of climbing. The 10K before the actual climb are 3.5%, and that's the only reason they put the HC sticker on. After the descent there is some flat parts, a 4K 6.5% cat. 3 climb, and Cambasque is 8.5K at 8% with the steepest parts in the end (another 30 minute slog) before there is 18K of downhill / flat to the finish.
2. Today's stage has Petit Ballon, which is essentially a 9.5K 8% affair (notice the similarities with Soudet). While the Soudet has 10K before at 3.5%, if we compare those relatively easy kms of Soudet with what is before Petit Ballon (3 Cat 2 climbs), today's stage has a much harder start (or if we compare Soudet / Cambasque with Petit Ballon / Platzerwasel, all the Laruns stage had was a Cat. 3 climb while this stage has 3 more Cat. 2 climbs). After the descent of Petit Ballon (bad asphalt, many holes), it is immediately up Platzerwasel (so only 10 minutes of 'rest'), which is 7K at 8.2%. After the official col, there are 2.5K at 4% with 1K at 8%, a flat bit in between and another K at 6% (this part = Breitfirst = a cat 4 on it's own, but uncategorized this Tour). So albeit the Platzerwasel seems to be a bit easier than Cambasque, there are still some hard sections after the official climb (similar to the Cambasque, it's a approx. 30 minute climb to the Breitfirst), and there is no recuperation whatsoever with only 6K to go to the finish (slight downhill, but some rolling terrain).

So yes, this stage is harder as it's having 2 30 minute climbs back-to-back before the finish, while the Laruns stage had time in between the 2 hardest climbs which were also 30 minute affairs (e.g. 30-35 minutes between the top of the Soudet and the base of the Cat. 3 clim) + 3x longer descent / flat to the finish.

But you know what? Don't take my word for it: Ride both stages and come back to me with your experiences.
And if you're still not convinved, ask any rider in this Tour after the finish and I'll happily place bets on what they would answer.
I know some of those riders, I hope you do as well.

 

[topcat]

Yeah, this won't end in a sprint.

Vingegaard by a minute. He is still lacking a road stage, so Jumbo better chase all day.

Yates will secure 3rd. Pog will have recovered (he’s had a breather doing 2 stages at less than 50 kmph). Pog will attack long range. Vinnie will go after him bald headed and try to shoulder him off the road. Pog will chuckle and the two of them will fight it out for the stage win, finishing 10 mins ahead of the rest of the field. This one’s too close to call.

 

[ashhutch1997]

Wouldn't suprise me if Inoes went all in for the podium. Something like stage 20 of the 2021 Vuelta.

 

[Netserk]

I have done the Soudet, Petit Ballon and Platzerwasel so I reckon I'm in some kind of a position to give my opinion.

1. the Laruns stage has the Soudet, which is essentially a 10.3K - 8% affair = 32-33 minutes of climbing. The 10K before the actual climb are 3.5%, and that's the only reason they put the HC sticker on. After the descent there is some flat parts, a 4K 6.5% cat. 3 climb, and Cambasque is 8.5K at 8% with the steepest parts in the end (another 30 minute slog) before there is 18K of downhill / flat to the finish.
2. Today's stage has Petit Ballon, which is essentially a 9.5K 8% affair (notice the similarities with Soudet). While the Soudet has 10K before at 3.5%, if we compare those relatively easy kms of Soudet with what is before Petit Ballon (3 Cat 2 climbs), today's stage has a much harder start (or if we compare Soudet / Cambasque with Petit Ballon / Platzerwasel, all the Laruns stage had was a Cat. 3 climb while this stage has 3 more Cat. 2 climbs). After the descent of Petit Ballon (bad asphalt, many holes), it is immediately up Platzerwasel (so only 10 minutes of 'rest'), which is 7K at 8.2%. After the official col, there are 2.5K at 4% with 1K at 8%, a flat bit in between and another K at 6% (this part = Breitfirst = a cat 4 on it's own, but uncategorized this Tour). So albeit the Platzerwasel seems to be a bit easier than Cambasque, there are still some hard sections after the official climb (similar to the Cambasque, it's a approx. 30 minute climb to the Breitfirst), and there is no recuperation whatsoever with only 6K to go to the finish (slight downhill, but some rolling terrain).

So yes, this stage is harder as it's having 2 30 minute climbs back-to-back before the finish, while the Laruns stage had time in between the 2 hardest climbs which were also 30 minute affairs (e.g. 30-35 minutes between the top of the Soudet and the base of the Cat. 3 clim) + 3x longer descent / flat to the finish.

But you know what? Don't take my word for it: Ride both stages and come back to me with your experiences.
And if you're still not convinved, ask any rider in this Tour after the finish and I'll happily place bets on what they would answer.
I know some of those riders, I hope you do as well.

Platzerwasel was done in less than 22 minutes back in 2014 while in the middle of the stage (and can be done in less than 20 minutes today). If they go full gas today, the two climbs together can be done in 45 minutes by Vingegaard.

If the two main climbs really are so similar, and the rest of the stage is so much harder today, how come stage 5 had 200 m of vertical gain more than today? And it's not like the vertical gain today is steeper or more concentrated, so I doubt you could compute a metric by which it would score higher. Unless of course you think adding flat to the start of a stage makes it easier.

 

[Volderke]

Platzerwasel was done in less than 22 minutes back in 2014 while in the middle of the stage (and can be done in less than 20 minutes today). If they go full gas today, the two climbs together can be done in 45 minutes by Vingegaard.

If the two main climbs really are so similar, and the rest of the stage is so much harder today, how come stage 5 had 200 m of vertical gain more than today? And it's not like the vertical gain today is steeper or more concentrated, so I doubt you could compute a metric by which it would score higher. Unless of course you think adding flat to the start of a stage makes it easier.

In my very humble opinion, today's stage is, like I wrote earlier, at least on par, and most likely harder.
That's my (very humble) opinion, and that's the opinion from pros I know.

You have to deal with that, I fear.

And I'll have a good laugh with your "45 minutes by Vingegaard" (or any other rider), which again shows you have no clue and haven't even read what I wrote about Platzerwasel (which ends at Breitfirst).

When I write something along the lines of 'this stage is in the top 5 of hardest stages in this Tour' in the context of someone lamenting this stage being short and I arguing this stage is hard and that's what matters, it's quite baffling that you pick this out to try and convince me that this shouldn't be in the top 5 but should rather be the 6th hardest stage, just because you found one statistic, that is pretty meningless on its own, that backs up your gut feeling.
You seem to like discussion just because.

 

[ice&fire]

Adam Yates to get in the breakaway and do an Oscar Pereiro.

On the last Saturday that'd be a Delgado Vuelta '85

 

[Netserk]

And I'll have a good laugh with your "45 minutes by Vingegaard" (or any other rider), which again shows you have no clue and haven't even read what I wrote about Platzerwasel.

So you think he'll be slower today than on Joux-Plane?!