Tour de France Tour de France 2023, stage 5: Pau - Laruns, 162.7k

[Jagartrott]

It would have made little difference in regard to winning the Tour, when Vinge goes Pogi can only look at himself to close the move. Of course now Hindley may be difficult to beat for second, but i don't think UAE really care about that.

In any case, UAE set themselves up to a Vignegaard attack. They made themselves vulnerable, for no good reason. Could've been worse if the group would've been ahead 40 seconds or so more, then Benoot could've helped Vignegaard in the last 15 km. Really, a series of bad decisions by UAE DS and road captains.

 

[Rollthedice]

He’s had 2 race days since Liege, he’s not the next Pinot. Pog has won 2 Tours and Pinot has won ummm none. Also the competition isn’t bad here it’s just we have a stand out rider.

Of course he is not Pinot. He is Pino in this Tour. The competition is bad. Apart from Hindley there is no-one who could remotely challenge for anything GC.

 

[movingtarget]

A Roglic who barely eked out a Giro win over an ancient Thomas who lost horribly to Pogacar at last year’s Tour, is suddenly a better GT rider than Pogacar again because he’s below his best in a GT he couldn’t prepare for the way he wanted? Please.

TGH would have pushed Roglic all the way in the Giro. Roglic was good enough to beat Thomas late in the race. But that Thomas is obviously not Thomas the Tour winner.

 

[EddyMazzoleni]

The reality is, in GTs, the only times Tadej has crushed the competition on a stage were the final ITT of stage 20 and Romme in 2021. Roglic was a better climber in the 2019 Vuelta and 2020 Tour. Vingegaard dropped him on Ventoux in 2021 and was miles better last year. > 4 minutes gained in mountains.

He’s the best all-around rider, but I’m not convinced he would have beaten Roglic in 2021, or even Vingegaard if he hadn’t crashed on the Romme stage. And Roglic really screwed up 2020.

I think that if all the riders get perfect prep and line up for a GT and don’t have crashed, the hierarchy would be:

1. Vingegaard
2. Roglic
3. Pogacar
4. Remco
5. Ayuso

Of course, Vingegaard could fade or Pogacar suddenly improve significantly, but at this point it seems like, for a good race next year, we need:

• Ayuso to race the Tour with Tadej as co-leaders.
• Roglic to transfer to Ineos and go after the Tour with full support.
• Remco to race the Tour.

He crushed the competition not named Vingegaard in every climb of the last Tour bar the Granon. Pogi has only one problem and it's from denmark.

 

[GroupDK]

Any interview yet with Cicconi an explanation for the fury.?

Top 3 Grand Tour riders atm..
Vingegaard
Pogacar
and then quite a step behind these two' Roglic & co..

Pogacar got a big heart, I reckon he will bounce back, it's god dang Pogacar.. and its a long tour.

 

[memyselfandI]

This Tour can change and be quite dramatic in the second half because of early stages profile and early high energy spending right from the beginning.

 

[Martinstranger]

Vingegaard interview: Surprised he only needed one attack to launch

 

[VayaVayaVaya]

Why would you have Ayuso ahead of Geraint Thomas or Jai Hindley?

A Roglic who barely eked out a Giro win over an ancient Thomas who lost horribly to Pogacar at last year’s Tour, is suddenly a better GT rider than Pogacar again because he’s below his best in a GT he couldn’t prepare for the way he wanted? Please.

Nah, its just that Vingegaard is so strong. Still Pogacar is better than Roglic. Also why is there no Thomas? Surely has shown more than Remco or Ayuso. And was super evenly matched with Roglic in the Giro. But to have the Pogacar connection again - he gave the same Thomas 5 minutes last year in the Tour (and the rest of the field over 10min), 2021 he gave Carapaz 7 min (and the rest of the field over 10min). Where has Roglic ever done this? Not even close.

Vingegaard > Pogacar >> Roglic/Thomas > Others

My reasoning:

• Agreed there is no logical argument possible that Vingegaard isn’t clearly the best GT rider based on existing evidence.
• Roglic had injuries impact him all 2022 and ultimately had surgery in the offseason and missed a lot of time
• Roglic was not far off of Remco when he crashed out late in the Vuelta despite having fractured vertebrae and dislocated his shoulder during the Tour
• Roglic had sun-optimal prep and suffered a bad crash on stage 13 of the Giro, requiring multiple stitches in his hip but still won with a beautiful final ITT (and lost 20 seconds due to a dropped chain during that ITT)
• G is good but I think at this point his ceiling is podium unless there are crashes / illnesses, as there were in the Giro
• Ayuso was third at 19 and just has “it.” If you’ve watched him race, you know it. He is also more well-rounded than Hindley.
• Hindley might prove me wrong. I would put him with Thomas just below Ayuso because he is less well-rounded, but if he finishes second (or first) in the Tour, that changes things.
• Pogacar has never ridden head-to-head against Roglic in a stage race and been clearly the better rider. He had one shocking stage where he stole the show in one stage race.

 

[Mayomaniac]

Any interview yet with Cicconi an explanation for the fury.?

Top 3 Grand Tour riders atm..
Vingegaard
Pogacar
and then quite a step behind these two' Roglic & co..

Pogacar got a big heart, I reckon he will bounce back, it's god dang Pogacar.. and its a long tour.

Apparently the team ordered him not to pull in the group because they had freaking Shellmose behind, Italian commentators were really salty after the race...

 

[Oldermanish]

Nah, its just that Vingegaard is so strong. Still Pogacar is better than Roglic. Also why is there no Thomas? Surely has shown more than Remco or Ayuso. And was super evenly matched with Roglic in the Giro. But to have the Pogacar connection again - he gave the same Thomas 5 minutes last year in the Tour (and the rest of the field over 10min), 2021 he gave Carapaz 7 min (and the rest of the field over 10min). Where has Roglic ever done this? Not even close.

Vingegaard > Pogacar >> Roglic/Thomas > Others

Thomas was probably tired after the Giro but the rest of the team looked like a bad Week 3 today.

 

[Devil's Elbow]

Pogacar, as I’ve said, had never ridden head-to-head against Roglic in a stage race and been clearly the better rider. He had one shocking stage where he stole the show in one stage race.

Counterpoint: Roglic has only ridden head-to-head against Pogacar once in a GT and been the better rider. Which was when Pogacar was 20. It's a moot point.

 

[Oldermanish]

Apparently the team ordered him not to pull in the group because they had freaking Shellmose behind, Italian commentators were really salty after the race...

Watching him tax himself to get back on the line after that one feeble pull I'm not sure he'd have done much but provide a short rest. Buchmann would've negated any help just be messing with the rotation in a group that small.

 

[Gigs_98]

Pdbf and multiple (admittedly light) attacks on the run in to Granon. Based on Pdbf last year, you would think that 2022 Pogacar could have followed Vingegaard here. And Vingegaard only dropped him once after Granon - in the final kilometers of the final climb on the final mountain stage, after Pogacar attacked him non - stop for days.

PdbF was basically a mountain sprint, a discipline where Pog is simply superior.
And I give you that Pog followed Vingegaards early attacks on the Galibier. But do you really think that's the stage that will convince me Pog was much better last year.

 

[sam6]

Anyone else kinda think Hindley could have got more time. Buchmann hardly spent anytime on the front, they should have paced the break more and harder. Was noticeable there was almost always a group ahead of the main break and had Buchmann or even Hindley earlier done more work then they could maybe have got another 30 seconds. But great ride by them none the less

 

[Bolder]

Vingegaard was so good today. Tomorrow's an arguably harder stage with the Toumalet so question is who recovers best. There's still a chance for about 15 riders to keep themselves in contention but after tomorrow a lot of them will probably be found out...

 

[tobydawq]

In the Way too Early to Speculate category, there is still a mathematical chance that Jumbo could win all three grand tours, this year.

What does math have to do with that?

 

[Salvarani]

Vingegaard interview: Surprised he only needed one attack to launch

He is always surprised or confused

 

[SHAD0W93]

Any interview yet with Cicconi an explanation for the fury.?

Cicconi didn’t look upset when he told Vinge to buzz off.

 

[DNP-Old]

2023 | 20'58min | J.Vingegaard - RECORD
2020 | 22'27min | T.Pogacar, P.Roglic

 

[VayaVayaVaya]

Counterpoint: Roglic has only ridden head-to-head against Pogacar once in a GT and been the better rider. Which was when Pogacar was 20. It's a moot point.

True, and you might be right. I am possibly grasping at straws for something other than certainty that Vingegaard is the next Lance Armstrong. My other piece of evidence that I forgot is:

• Vingegaard produced similar numbers to his absolute peak to date at last years Dauphine and Roglic held on. Vingegaard could have dropped him I think we all agree, but I’m not sure he could have put a minute into him unless you’re prepared to believe that he could have put in what I think would have been a record performance.
• TJV thought Roglic was close enough to send him to the Tour as co-leader despite his nagging injuries.
• Roglic knows the numbers and still wanted to race the Tour after the Giro. Maybe he wanted to dom for Vingegaard but he consistently talks about still winning the Tour. If he is so far off that he’d lose a minute on Vingegaard in the first climb, he’s foolish to do so.

 

[RobertCrawley]

With Bernal at 4 minutes and Pidders at 2:36, I wonder if Ineos has found a new GC contender to support.

 

[Faserr]

Anyone else kinda think Hindley could have got more time. Buchmann hardly spent anytime on the front, they should have paced the break more and harder. Was noticeable there was almost always a group ahead of the main break and had Buchmann or even Hindley earlier done more work then they could maybe have got another 30 seconds. But great ride by them none the less

If they put Emu Buchmann at the front every team is watching them. They played it tactically perfect and were lucky that Ag2R and Ineos had numbers.
I think at the end they would have paced with him but AG2R and Ineos went allout, faster then Buchmann could have done.

 

[Andy schleck]

I dont wanna say I told you so

Even me, a fan of Vingegaard didn't believe in you. I'm sorry. I thought Vingegaard was going to attack tomorrow.

 

[RobertCrawley]

Even me, a fan of Vingegaard didn't believe in you. I'm sorry. I thought Vingegaard was going to attack tomorrow.

I'm with you. I didn't think Marie Blanque was hard enough to create havoc in the GC.

And even if it did, the long run out to Laruns would bring everyone back together.

 

[Tim Cahill]

Pogacar cracked because he's not an elite level climber,

2023 | 20'58min | J.Vingegaard - RECORD
2020 | 22'27min | T.Pogacar, P.Roglic

They went pretty fast in 2020 too, not exactly full beans but it's an absurd performance