Tour de France Tour de France 2023, stage 5: Pau - Laruns, 162.7k

[Andy schleck]

2023 | 20'58min | J.Vingegaard - RECORD
2020 | 22'27min | T.Pogacar, P.Roglic

What a monster.

 

[Devil's Elbow]

True, and you might be right. I am possibly grasping at straws for something other than certainty that Vingegaard is the next Lance Armstrong. My other piece of evidence that I forgot is:

• Vingegaard produced similar numbers to his absolute peak to date at last years Dauphine and Roglic held on. Vingegaard could have dropped him I think we all agree, but I’m not sure he could have put a minute into him unless you’re prepared to believe that he could have put in what I think would have been a record performance.
• TJV thought Roglic was close enough to send him to the Tour as co-leader despite his nagging injuries.
• Roglic knows the numbers and still wanted to race the Tour after the Giro. Maybe he wanted to dom for Vingegaard but he consistently talks about still winning the Tour. If he is so far off that he’d lose a minute on Vingegaard in the first climb, he’s foolish to do so.

Roglic is undisputedly better in one-week races than GTs, especially relative to Vingegaard, so the fact that he stayed with a Vingegaard who wasn't even trying at the Dauphiné isn't exactly an argument in favour of him. Yes, he probably stays closer to Vingegaard today than Pogacar did, but that argument only works if you think that Pogacar was at his usual level today. Given that he was with Kuss and only about 20 seconds ahead of Rodriguez, Yates x2 and Gaudu atop Marie-Blanque, he definitely wasn't.

 

[Volderke]

A tactical masterclass from WvA. For those still wondering what his value is:

1. He forced the break of the day;
2. He had some decent GC guys / climbers in the group, so by pushing very hard, he single-handedly forced UAE, who had no one in the break, to decimate half of their team;
3. When his own bid for glory was gone, he forced the pace in the front group, helping his team to drop all UAE riders, so the moment pogacar was dropped, he didn’t have any team mates.

So again, while people’s memory is still fresh, WvA was the key rider that contributed significantly to Vingegaard’s successful attack and the amount of time that was ultimately gained.

 

[SHAD0W93]

Pogacar cracked because he's not an elite level climber,

They went pretty fast in 2020 too, not exactly full beans but it's an absurd performance

So is Roglic not an elite climber either?

 

[RobertCrawley]

A tactical masterclass from WvA. For those still wondering what his value is:

1. He forced the break of the day;
2. He had some decent GC guys / climbers in the group, so by pushing very hard, he single-handedly forced UAE, who had no one in the break, to decimate half of their team;
3. When his own bid for glory was gone, he forced the pace in the front group, helping his team to drop all UAE riders, so the moment pogacar was dropped, he didn’t have any team mates.

So again, while people’s memory is still fresh, WvA was the key rider that contributed significantly to Vingegaard’s successful attack and the amount of time that was ultimately gained.

I imagine they also wanted WVA to get over Marie Blanque and help on the run out to Laruns, but he couldn't do it. Great effort, nonetheless!

But selfish.

 

[Skalman]

Was stating this after the first stage, many laughed then. Its over for Pogacar its only going to get worse.
Unless he crashes Vinge has won.

 

[VayaVayaVaya]

2023 | 20'58min | J.Vingegaard - RECORD
2020 | 22'27min | T.Pogacar, P.Roglic

That is a big difference for sure. Also, this Cyclingnews write up of the 2020 stage is fascinating as it shows real-time evidence that Pogacar completely played Primoz.

“Pogacar is the second Slovenian rider to win in Laruns after Roglic won in 2018. The two are rivals but seem to have struck a pact to work together, despite almost crashing when they touched wheels at the summit of the Col de Marie Blanque.

"Primoz is really good - he's won before, he'll win more. I hope we can do together great things," Pogacar said.

Tour de France: Pogacar wins stage 9

Roglic takes control as Yates loses yellow jersey

www.cyclingnews.com

 

[Tim Cahill]

So is Roglic not an elite climber either?

Nah Rogla is merely a top top one week stage racer judging by his record in the early season races and the longest one week stage race on the calendar aka La Vuelta.

Froome and Contador would've beaten Pog/Rog if they had 2023 tech.

 

[Escarabajo]

2023 | 20'58min | J.Vingegaard - RECORD
2020 | 22'27min | T.Pogacar, P.Roglic

So I have the answer to all my questions. Vingegaard performance is completely out of this world.

 

[VayaVayaVaya]

Roglic is undisputedly better in one-week races than GTs, especially relative to Vingegaard, so the fact that he stayed with a Vingegaard who wasn't even trying at the Dauphiné isn't exactly an argument in favour of him. Yes, he probably stays closer to Vingegaard today than Pogacar did, but that argument only works if you think that Pogacar was at his usual level today. Given that he was with Kuss and only about 20 seconds ahead of Rodriguez, Yates x2 and Gaudu atop Marie-Blanque, he definitely wasn't.

That’s what we all said last year when Pogi was beaten by Quintana, Gaudu, and Yates on Granon. I think he holds on too long and pops. Also, Kuss is supremely good when he is on his day like today.

 

[memyselfandI]

Anyone else kinda think Hindley could have got more time. Buchmann hardly spent anytime on the front, they should have paced the break more and harder. Was noticeable there was almost always a group ahead of the main break and had Buchmann or even Hindley earlier done more work then they could maybe have got another 30 seconds. But great ride by them none the less

Looked like controlled drilling when he went solo, he was not doing all out that is totally acceptable and reasonable. It would be crazy to empty the tank completely at this point of race, plus two weeks to go. His and Boras timing for this moment was perfect I think.

 

[Ulle97]

I'm with you. I didn't think Marie Blanque was hard enough to create havoc in the GC.

And even if it did, the long run out to Laruns would bring everyone back together.

The last 4km of the climb are around 10% which is severe enough to do big damage.
I understand that the descent and flat afterwards could have seen any advantage wiped out.

It just goes to show when the racing is super aggressive, the profile doesn't need to be perfect.

 

[Escarabajo]

The race is missing Froome

The only one missing Froome is the Broom Wagon driver!

 

[Devil's Elbow]

That’s what we all said last year when Pogi was beaten by Quintana, Gaudu, and Yates on Granon. I think he holds on too long and pops. Also, Kuss is supremely good when he is on his day like today.

...and Granon wasn't Pogacar's normal level either, but simply a rare bad day, otherwise he wouldn't have incinerated those three over and over after that.

 

[Mayomaniac]

The only one missing Froome is the Broom Wagon driver!

And the Froometto.

 

[EddyMazzoleni]

2023 | 20'58min | J.Vingegaard - RECORD
2020 | 22'27min | T.Pogacar, P.Roglic

I clocked Pogi 36 sec behind at the top, so he still went 1:50+ faster than the record, so while he may not be at his best it can't be too far off.
For context the Yates' group was 1:01-1:02 behind Vinge at the top

 

[Mayomaniac]

Pogacar cracked because he's not an elite level climber,

They went pretty fast in 2020 too, not exactly full beans but it's an absurd performance

Today even Pidcock was faster than the 2020 time...

 

[VayaVayaVaya]

...and Granon wasn't Pogacar's normal level either, but simply a rare bad day, otherwise he wouldn't have incinerated those three over and over after that.

…because he held on too long and popped

I clocked Pogi 36 sec behind at the top, so he still went 1:50+ faster than the record, so while he may not be at his best it can't be too far off.
For context the Yates' group was 1:01-1:02 behind Vinge at the top

That math works out to :52. I don’t think they were basically flat out at 100% that year but I can’t really remember. Either way, 2023 Vingegaard would have crushed them in 2020 I’m sure.

 

[ChewbaccaDefense]

A tactical masterclass from WvA. For those still wondering what his value is:

1. He forced the break of the day;
2. He had some decent GC guys / climbers in the group, so by pushing very hard, he single-handedly forced UAE, who had no one in the break, to decimate half of their team;
3. When his own bid for glory was gone, he forced the pace in the front group, helping his team to drop all UAE riders, so the moment pogacar was dropped, he didn’t have any team mates.

So again, while people’s memory is still fresh, WvA was the key rider that contributed significantly to Vingegaard’s successful attack and the amount of time that was ultimately gained.

This is a better assessment than mine. Intelligent read.

 

[Big Doopie]

With Bernal at 4 minutes and Pidders at 2:36, I wonder if Ineos has found a new GC contender to support.

One can only hope. Speaking of “nice”, Carlos is the man!

Last year’s Vuelta top ten not looking too shabby these days…

 

[EddyMazzoleni]

…because he held on too long and popped

That math works out to :52. I don’t think they were basically flat out at 100% that year but I can’t really remember. Either way, 2023 Vingegaard would have crushed them in 2020 I’m sure.

Oh yeah, my bad

 

[Nick2413]

A tactical masterclass from WvA. For those still wondering what his value is:

1. He forced the break of the day;
2. He had some decent GC guys / climbers in the group, so by pushing very hard, he single-handedly forced UAE, who had no one in the break, to decimate half of their team;
3. When his own bid for glory was gone, he forced the pace in the front group, helping his team to drop all UAE riders, so the moment pogacar was dropped, he didn’t have any team mates.

So again, while people’s memory is still fresh, WvA was the key rider that contributed significantly to Vingegaard’s successful attack and the amount of time that was ultimately gained.

It was UAE’s fault for chasing, Vingegaard would have taken a minute anyway, and from the shots I saw Wout bridged to the break after it already had 10+ guys in it and multiple JV. Maybe he rode more than others but I think this is a bit of an exaggeration.

 

[JosefK]

Jonas was great last year, but I don't think his 2022 self could have done what he did today.

 

[KOM]

Dont think even @Libertine Seguros can have a bad word towards Kuss today, I dont like him much either, but credit where its due. Hell of a performance

 

[Riek s]

Now that the tour is over, what will happen in the Vuelta?