Tour de France Tour de France 2023, stage 6: Tarbes - Cauterets-Cambasque, 144.9k

[Pinot's goat]

There was nothing wrong with Vingegaard and JV tactics with the exception of Vingegaard riding on the front after he knew he wouldn't be able to drop Pogacar on the final climb. Vingegaard is stronger than Pogacar on long climbs like the Tourmalet and it appeared yesterday that Pogacar was not on top form so it would make sense to try to take advantage because Pogacar will only get stronger.

 

[Valv.Piti]

In fairness, I don't think Vingegaard launching it on the Tourmalet is what most observers had in mind after yesterday. Even the Eurosport commentators didn't believe this scenario would happen (i.e. a Vingegaard long ranger).

The more commonly accepted theory was Vingegaard would drop Pog on Cauterets, or on Sunday on Puy de Dôme.

From the first minute of the stage I knew that was the plan. I think it was obvious today due to Pog's somewhat shady form (turned out to be an off day) and the best rouleur out front and a pretty long valley/shallow climb after Tourmalet. It was the perfect scenario, and on paper you had the best climber + best climbing domestique (Kuss) and best domestique period (Van Aert) out front to pull it off.

If youre not going to swing here, when are you?

The small mistake was Vingegaard continuing his attack after it was pretty obvious to us (but maybe not him) that he couldn't drop Pog when going all out. It's pretty easy to tell when Vingegaard is on the limit, and so I thought that was the only real mistake since Pogacar looked really incredibly easy on the wheel. But that's that.

 

[proffate]

Did Vinge work harder on stage 5 after the Marie Blanque summit, leaving Pog with more in the tank for today's finale? The way the gap stretched out on the descent and run in yesterday suggests Vinge was either way better or trying way harder; his gurning suggests the latter.

 

[Trofonios]

Vaughters giving TJV some s**t:

"I wouldn't say they played it perfectly," Vaughters said on The Breakaway.

"They are so strong, and they have such an abundance of talent on that team, that sometimes they overplay it. They've got so much horsepower, they think 'we can just stonk this race out'.

"Vingegaard blew out a tremendous amount of energy today, while Pogacar was always on the wheel, playing the lame duck like 'gosh, you were so much better than I was yesterday, I'm just a little humble Tadej'. And then he took advantage of all that saved energy to spend it right at the end and win."

Jumbo-Visma tried to 'kill' the Tour and failed – Vaughters on stunning Pogacar win

Jumbo-Visma got it wrong on Stage 6 at the Tour de France – despite taking the yellow jersey – according to Jonathan Vaughters.

www.eurosport.com

 

[Rackham]

From the first minute of the stage I knew that was the plan. I think it was obvious today due to Pog's somewhat shady form (turned out to be an off day) and the best rouleur out front and a pretty long valley/shallow climb after Tourmalet. It was the perfect scenario, and on paper you had the best climber + best climbing domestique (Kuss) and best domestique period (Van Aert) out front to pull it off.

If youre not going to swing here, when are you?

The small mistake was Vingegaard continuing his attack after it was pretty obvious to us (but maybe not him) that he couldn't drop Pog when going all out. It's pretty easy to tell when Vingegaard is on the limit, and so I thought that was the only real mistake since Pogacar looked really incredibly easy on the wheel. But that's that.

These are valid point but nevertheless, there was no reason for Vingegaard to expose himself like that & it was patently obvious he'd have to lead out Pog on Cauterets once WvA had finished his pull.

It might have been hilarious entertainment (I really did enjoy that, so thanks Jumbo) but the hyper aggressive nature of their tactics today was just straight-up arrogance. I mean just tell Grischa Niermann to relax a little, i.e. the way Vingegaard was taking risks on the descent of the Tourmalet to drop Pog before linking up with Van Aert was also evidence of their chaotic 'smash the Pog' ambitions (like last year on Granon).

It's like Jumbo have real trouble balancing their tactics in the Tour between overly aggressive way too risky versus overly conservative (like in 2020). Just take the win yesterday & breathe a little. It's a long Tour. But they threw all their chips onto the poker table when they absolutely did not have to.

 

[RobertCrawley]

Vaughters giving TJV some s**t:

"I wouldn't say they played it perfectly," Vaughters said on The Breakaway.

"They are so strong, and they have such an abundance of talent on that team, that sometimes they overplay it. They've got so much horsepower, they think 'we can just stonk this race out'.

"Vingegaard blew out a tremendous amount of energy today, while Pogacar was always on the wheel, playing the lame duck like 'gosh, you were so much better than I was yesterday, I'm just a little humble Tadej'. And then he took advantage of all that saved energy to spend it right at the end and win."

Jumbo-Visma tried to 'kill' the Tour and failed – Vaughters on stunning Pogacar win

Jumbo-Visma got it wrong on Stage 6 at the Tour de France – despite taking the yellow jersey – according to Jonathan Vaughters.

www.eurosport.com

Vaughters.

Sure Jumbo used up energy today, but today was the day to do it. Tomorrow it's flat and it will be essentially cruise control and recovery.

 

[JosefK]

The stage profile could almost be for a queen stage in another TDF. Throw in some cold and rain, and the chances for chaos go way up. How epic would it be for Pog to come out swinging and take back 20 seconds or so on Jonas? It's okay to dream. ... Also, I love that Hindley has thrown a small spanner in the works. What if, instead of fading, he keeps getting stronger? ... It's okay to dream. I'm not putting the (figurative) pipe down, just yet.

My pipe still works! I was caught up with a lawn maintenance project earlier and had to watch the stage on replay. With some angst I watched the Jumbo machine enact what would surely be the Tour-crushing stomp of all stomps beginning on the Tourmalet. And everything seemed to be going according to the master plan. Kelderman moved to the front and strangled the peloton, reducing the yellow-jersey group to just a handful of riders. Then the diabolical Kuss took over, turning the screws till even Hindley had to fall away. The Fish Market King then launched, and I cried out to protect the women and children. But when the smoke cleared I could see that Pog was still there. Amazing! How had he managed this??? Turns out he stayed up all night working by candlelight to reverse-engineer the Vingegaardian Wheel Sucking device, and presto, he applied it with incredible effectivness. He had also brushed up on his hypnosis skills and, through telepathic suggestion, kept whispering to Vingo to "just keep pulling, just keep pulling. ... You can do it, Jonas. You can do it. Just keep pulling." ... When they reached Wout on the descent, Jonas was fully imprisoned by Pog's mind control. Jonas wasn't able to snap out of it till after he saw Pog rocket past him in the final 2 kilometers. By then, it was too late. ... Funny thing is, the plan would have worked on literally any other rider in the world, today. Just not on Pog, still the best rider in the world. ... In the end, fans win. Another epic stage, and the Tour is very alive. ... Jonas can still win, of course. So can Pog. And if things get strange, Hindley may not be out of it, either.

 

[Peyroteo94]

Jumbo rode the perfect race specially after what happened yesterday, how could they expect Pogi to be back to his normal self today? Now, they should test Pogi on stage 9, if Vinge can't drop Pogacar, they must ride a conservative race in week 2. Pogi is too close specially if Jumbo deliver him bonus seconds.

 

[StryderHells]

Did Vinge work harder on stage 5 after the Marie Blanque summit, leaving Pog with more in the tank for today's finale? The way the gap stretched out on the descent and run in yesterday suggests Vinge was either way better or trying way harder; his gurning suggests the latter.

No, overthinking it.
one was better yesterday and the other hit back today

 

[Valv.Piti]

These are valid point but nevertheless, there was no reason for Vingegaard to expose himself like that & it was patently obvious he'd have to lead out Pog on Cauterets once WvA had finished his pull.

It might have been hilarious entertainment (I really did enjoy that, so thanks Jumbo) but the hyper aggressive nature of their tactics today was just straight-up arrogance. I mean just tell Grischa Niermann to relax a little, i.e. the way Vingegaard was taking risks on the descent of the Tourmalet to drop Pog before linking up with Van Aert was also evidence of their chaotic 'smash the Pog' ambitions (like last year on Granon).

It's like Jumbo have real trouble balancing their tactics in the Tour between overly aggressive way too risky versus overly conservative (like in 2020). Just take the win yesterday & breathe a little. It's a long Tour. But they threw all their chips onto the poker table when they absolutely did not have to.

I fundamentally disagree. I do think it was a smart move that made all the sense in the world, but it just didn't work out due to Pogacar being an extraterrestrial athlete and somehow found his super legs again. They tried and I think everyone only can applaud that, even though yes, Vingegaard made the mistake of trying to push it soo far today on Cauterets.

 

[perico]

Looking at the times on the final climb, it seems that mostly it was Vignegaard being poor, rather than Pogacar being strong. Hindley climbed about as fast as Pogacar there.

Apparently Jonas and Teddy set the fastest time up the Tourmalet in history by well over two minutes while Hindley lost literally that much by the ascent. It's safe to say that those two went pretty much full gas on the second to last climb and Jonas paid for it. I don't think anyone is disputing that. It's easier to set a better time on Cauterets (which isn't a difficult climb at all) when you were puttering along up the Tourmalet slightly quicker than Cavendish (sarcasm implied if not detected).

 

[ChewbaccaDefense]

I'm completely stoked about todays result, but I have to repeat myself. This was utter tactical ineptitude by Jumbo. In a race where they should clearly focus on Pogacar and Pogacar alone, they drag him over the Tourmalet, drag him to the final climb and drag him to the final 3 kms, while completely exposing their leader. Even if Pog couldn't have dropped Vingegaard today, what would have been the point? Their entire focus should be on dropping Pog and today they seemed to focus on literally anything except that.

...so, your assessment is that- JV: We know Pog is too strong, because he got dropped yesterday, so we should just follow his wheel!" You're clueless or just a JV hater...Uh, they rode to drop him today, but he was too strong to drop...but, how were they supposed to know that, after yesterday. Ridiculous post.

 

[RobertCrawley]

Great sportsmen.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1676977860857176064

View: https://twitter.com/LeTour/status/1676977860857176064?s=20

 

[Vino attacks everyone]

An amazing day of cycling. Chapeau to everyone involved! Pog has grown on me a lot over the last couple of years but Vingegaard and Jumbo show a willingness to attack that's rare in the tour.

 

[KZD]

First of all, after a great stage yesterday, today it was an awesome stage, we are truly privileged to witness these kind of battles between generational talents.

It looked to me like Jumbo wanted to explore some weakness on Hindley and Pogačar and while the former suffered today (still my favouritefor third), the latter didn't and mnage to win the stage and claw back some time. Jumbo played it well overall but on the last climb they were one domestique too shorter and Vingegård made the mistake of keep pacing when his first attack didn't work out. I was think Pogačar could have attack earlier but I don't think that it made too much of a difference to be honest.

I am starting to realise that the vulnerability of Pogačar is not the duration of the climb (he set a new record on Galibier last year and today manage to stay with Vingegård) but the steepness, at least in climbs that have portions of at least 3km constantly above 10%. This could mean he is going to suffer on Puy de Dôme but I hope that he has a good day there.

Looking to other riders, Van Aert was incredible today, his recovery ability truly brings out the best of him in the Tour, Johanessen with a great third place, the best of the 'mere mortals' and looking like a strong contender for the polka dot jersey and Pidcock also going better than I expected so far even though I think the profile of these first mountain stages helped him. A shame that Skjelmose lost his podium hope yoday but he will surely have more opportunities in the future.

To finish, a massive shoutout to Van Hooydonck, he is a rider that doesn't make the spotlight like others in the Jumbo team (some people even questioned his presence in the Tour squad) but he is an incredible domestique, not only he is one of the best in the world at positioning his leader in flat stages, he is then also capable of dropping many riders that weight 10 kilos less than him in these long mountain passes like Croix de Fer or Tourmalet.

 

[ChewbaccaDefense]

I enjoyed this one a lot, for what it's worth.

Cycling is the hardest & most beautiful sport in the world. I get immense enjoyment watching champions fighting it out like that, especially when a team attempts to make everything look way too easy & blow themselves up due to total over expenditure of their forces on the road - for no reason either (other than a cycling equivalent of a military shock & awe campaign).

It's the reverse of Granon (aka the scenario in which Granon goes wrong because Pog doesn't spend all his energy). The time loss was small today but the psychological boost to Pog & his team will be worth way more than the time they gained.

...um...they blew up the entire UAE team, with the exception of Pog. Early.

 

[Breezy1985]

Great sportsmen.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1676977860857176064

View: https://twitter.com/LeTour/status/1676977860857176064?s=20

Those kits get more and more Village People every season.

 

[Rollthedice]

An amazing day of cycling. Chapeau to everyone involved! Pog has grown on me a lot over the last couple of years but Vingegaard and Jumbo show a willingness to attack that's rare in the tour.

Pog was just a destroyer of whatever dreams others had. An exceptional rider with only one flaw, descending - something that he didn't really need - since he was so dominant in all other aspects of cycling. I'm not a big fan of riders who can do whatever they want because they are so superior (still many don't do anything interesting, just push insane watts and drop the rest). Not the case with Pog, an exciting rider in all aspects, part of a rare breed who can win GTs and big classics (last one for me was Vincenzo Nibali). Then Jonas came along and Pog suddenly became the underdog. Obviously I cannot but cheer for him, today's stage was one for the ages. Can he win it all? Maybe...

 

[ChewbaccaDefense]

1st: When JV were going all out on the Tourmalet, there were several posts about "alien" and references to Rabobank, etc, suggesting doping...then Pog jumps 1 day after he got dropped, and it's all chalked up to talent. I'll reserve a comment regarding miraculous returns after a down day in the early 2000's for another part of the forum, but those are some rose colored glasses some of you are wearing IMO.

2nd: Tomorrow and every day after, the Jumbo team will be the Jumbo team that they are...and UAE will be what they are. Who is more capable of shouldering the burden of protecting their leader has a pretty clear answer today, tomorrow, and in the next 2 weeks. Pog may be the strongest rider in the race, but based on yesterday and today, not by a massive margin...but the difference in the ability of the teams, based on yesterday and today, is much more substantial than the difference between Pog and Jonas. Maybe I'll eat my words, but I've seen nothing yet that suggests otherwise.

3rd: We have a great race to watch. I am truly hopeful that no injury or misfortune befall anyone, but particularly UAE and Pog and JV and Jonas, because it would be nice to have 3 solid weeks of amazing racing.

 

[Rackham]

...um...they blew up the entire UAE team, with the exception of Pog. Early.

And? They rode around France 3 years ago for 3 weeks whilst towing Pog along as the 9th Jumbo rider. Killing UAE is of no use when Pogačar only has to follow one wheel.

 

[ChewbaccaDefense]

And? They rode around France 3 years ago for 3 weeks whilst towing Pog along as the 9th Jumbo rider. Killing UAE is of no use when Pogačar only has to follow one wheel.

...yeah, because last year is proof of that...

 

[ChewbaccaDefense]

And? They rode around France 3 years ago for 3 weeks whilst towing Pog along as the 9th Jumbo rider. Killing UAE is of no use when Pogačar only has to follow one wheel.

There was a significant difference between Pog and Jonas 2 years ago, and there was a significant difference between Jonas and Pog 1 year ago, and this year, we may have something in the middle. Write JV and Jonas off if you want. Maybe you're right? I hope not for the enjoyment of watching the race. I also suspect you're speaking too early in a 3 week race to write such a thing. But, you do you.

 

[Trofonios]

Should A. Yates skip GC now and save energy to be there for Pog when it really counts? Not sure Majka is that strong this year.

 

[Rackham]

There was a significant difference between Pog and Jonas 2 years ago, and there was a significant difference between Jonas and Pog 1 year ago, and this year, we may have something in the middle. Write JV and Jonas off if you want. Maybe you're right? I hope not for the enjoyment of watching the race. I also suspect you're speaking too early in a 3 week race to write such a thing. But, you do you.

I'm not saying anything is over. I merely watched Jumbo gamble with the lead they had this morning & lost half of it.

The situation is also now eerily similar to the 2020 TdF, when Jumbo held yellow for two weeks & Pog sat 25 seconds or so behind (& collected bonus seconds with stage wins). So Vingegaard needs to drop him again, or else this is going to be uncomfortable for Jumbo.

And last year Pog destroyed himself chasing two wheels. This year, he only has to cover one. Just like in the 2020 TdF.

 

[ChewbaccaDefense]

What Pog thinks of JV tactics: "Today, Jumbo didn’t miss the plan, but they tried it, and they didn’t succeed, because in cycling it’s so difficult to follow the tactics. There are so many circumstances you need to think of. And it’s difficult to predict if it’s going to work or not. That’s cycling."

Yep, pretty much spot on. He also indicated that he was at his limit today.