Tour de France Tour de France 2023, stage 6: Tarbes - Cauterets-Cambasque, 144.9k

[Ulle97]

Do they? I got the opposite impression. Respecting Pog would have meant letting the break go (so the bonus seconds are out of his reach because his mountain sprint is better) & then sitting on Pog's wheel on Cauterets, or attacking hard late to see if they could drop him.

Jumbo wanted the jackpot & got burned hard because they disrespected their adversary & overestimated their own powers.

In fairness, 24hrs ago a sizable portion of cycling fans were screaming that the Tour was over. Pogacar looked vulnerable and people stated that his poor preparation and lack of race fitness was the problem.

Smelling blood, Vingegaard and Jumbo decided to go for the jugular whilst Tadej appeared weak. I don't think their confidence was totally misplaced.

 

[Izzyeviel]

It's always easy to say in hindsight this was stupid from JV but after yesterday it was more than reasonable to try to finish off Pogacar here. It would have been stupid if they didn't. If your opponent seems vulnerable you have to seize the opportunity.

It wasn't stupid, but you're right. The problem is that you're betting Pogacar was actually not in top form, and well, if he was in top form & just had a bad day, you've given him a free taxi ride until 2.5k. Vingegaard should've tried and attack when Wout dropped off. You won't win by going head to head with Pog, but you can if you put him under pressure. Jumbo should've realised on the descent of the Tourmalet that Pogacar was in much form and changed their plans accordingly.

 

[RobertCrawley]

Do they? I got the opposite impression. Respecting Pog would have meant letting the break go (so the bonus seconds are out of his reach because his mountain sprint is better) & then sitting on Pog's wheel on Cauterets, or attacking hard late to see if they could drop him.

Jumbo wanted the jackpot & got burned hard because they disrespected their adversary & overestimated their own powers.

It sounds like you are angry at Jumbo because they want to win the bike race.

 

[perico]

And not bad for Pog winning despite not being an elite climber


At least we have a race on our hands!

Anyone who said Pogacar is not an elite climber is an idiot (or at least had an idiotic take). Save for Jonas last year, the dude has been the best climber in the world since 2019-2020. Tadej is hardly one of those transitional TdF winners between eras. He is the benchmark whether he wins more Tdfs or not. If he’s not the best climber in the world anymore since Jonas came into the scene, he’s still a clear number 2 with a much larger distance to #3 than there is between himself and Vingegaard.

 

[frisenfruitig]

Guys, Jumbo Visma has a particular history (especially in the Tour) in which they're very self-aware of their own carefully curated image, i.e. an image of 'total cycling' born out of an attempt to replicate the Dutch 1970's national football team philosophy in cycling.

You need to understand Jumbo in order to understand what happened today. They don't give a sh*t about Pog, he's just an opponent they want to demolish, like any other. The whole point is the imagery (& marketing) of their brute force collective dominance. They attempted to turn the Tourmalet into "Granon chapter two" when they didn't even know Vingegaard's own limitations.

Well, they found out. So did UAE.

There was nothing wrong with their tactics, Pogacar was just better today.

 

[Rackham]

It sounds like you are angry at Jumbo because they want to win the bike race.

I enjoyed this one a lot, for what it's worth.

Cycling is the hardest & most beautiful sport in the world. I get immense enjoyment watching champions fighting it out like that, especially when a team attempts to make everything look way too easy & blow themselves up due to total over expenditure of their forces on the road - for no reason either (other than a cycling equivalent of a military shock & awe campaign).

It's the reverse of Granon (aka the scenario in which Granon goes wrong because Pog doesn't spend all his energy). The time loss was small today but the psychological boost to Pog & his team will be worth way more than the time they gained.

 

[Scarponi]

Anyone who said Pogacar is not an elite climber is an idiot (or at least had an idiotic take). Save for Jonas last year, the dude has been the best climber in the world since 2019-2020. Tadej is hardly one of those transitional TdF winners between eras. He is the benchmark whether he wins more Tdfs or not. If he’s not the best climber in the world anymore since Jonas came into the scene, he’s still a clear number 2 with a much larger distance to #3 than there is between himself and Vingegaard.

Imagine saying Contador wasn’t an elite climber because Froome dropped him. I can’t fathom anyone saying the 5th best GC isn’t an elite climber let alone 2nd hahahah

 

[Rob5091]

Chapeau Pogacar - followed until an attack at the right moment.
Kwiatkowski is a good rider but the fact he could follow for so long showed that this was no "full gas" last climb. Big question is, where was Kelderman when he was needed? Jumbo messed up, were lucky to get away with it and must think of how to use WvA.
UAE need to up their game or Pogacar will be isolated all too quickly and often.

 

[Salvarani]

In fairness, 24hrs ago a sizable portion of cycling fans were screaming that the Tour was over. Pogacar looked vulnerable and people stated that his poor preparation and lack of race fitness was the problem.

Smelling blood, Vingegaard and Jumbo decided to go for the jugular whilst Tadej appeared weak. I don't think their confidence was totally misplaced.

They got caught up, like many other people, in their own hype.

Pogs response came immediately and hard.

They must have been taken a back quite a bit by this and were probably a bit surprised, as well. They will be more hesitant and careful now. More conservative racing coming up.

 

[Ricco']

Astana with a win on the sprinting TTT challenge.

 

[Rackham]

In fairness, 24hrs ago a sizable portion of cycling fans were screaming that the Tour was over. Pogacar looked vulnerable and people stated that his poor preparation and lack of race fitness was the problem.

Smelling blood, Vingegaard and Jumbo decided to go for the jugular whilst Tadej appeared weak. I don't think their confidence was totally misplaced.

In fairness, I don't think Vingegaard launching it on the Tourmalet is what most observers had in mind after yesterday. Even the Eurosport commentators didn't believe this scenario would happen (i.e. a Vingegaard long ranger).

The more commonly accepted theory was Vingegaard would drop Pog on Cauterets, or on Sunday on Puy de Dôme.

 

[perico]

Are we even watching the same sport?
Everybody and their dog thought yesterday was a sign Pogacar was undercooked and should thus be attacked today. JV did exactly that. Isolated him on Tourmalet, and had a strong teammate up the road. The first attack didn't dislodge Pogacar, but that was OK, could still happen on the last climb (like last year), and Vignegaard could sit behind a train for 25 km to rest. The only thing that went wrong is that Vignegaard apparently didn't have the legs (and didn't recognize this in time), and Pogacar was much better than expected.

The team that did strange things today was Bora. Keeping the break close enough so that it invited a Vignegaard attack - why? No-one of note was in the break.

It was bad like 2003 Der Kaiser trying to drop the uniballer on the Tourmalet only to have his @ss handed to him on Luz Ardiden. Tadej was following his accelerations with ease so you have to recalibrate. Turn off and let Kuss come back to the front. His pace would’ve put more pressure on Teddy on that last climb and possibly neutered any real gaps. Or maybe they could’ve sent Kuss up the road instead of WVA and have him there on the last climb because Wout didn’t have enough left to put him under pressure.

 

[Samu Cuenca]

It wasn't stupid, but you're right. The problem is that you're betting Pogacar was actually not in top form, and well, if he was in top form & just had a bad day, you've given him a free taxi ride until 2.5k. Vingegaard should've tried and attack when Wout dropped off. You won't win by going head to head with Pog, but you can if you put him under pressure. Jumbo should've realised on the descent of the Tourmalet that Pogacar was in much form and changed their plans accordingly.

If the last part of Tourmalet was a taxi ride for him, then the Tour is indeed over now, and we can just head to Paris tomorrow while Jakobsen is still in the race.

 

[RobertCrawley]

I enjoyed this one a lot, for what it's worth.

Cycling is the hardest & most beautiful sport in the world. I get immense enjoyment watching champions fighting it out like that, especially when a team attempts to make everything look way too easy & blow themselves up due to total over expenditure of their forces on the road - for no reason either (other than a cycling equivalent of a military shock & awe campaign).

It's the reverse of Granon (aka the scenario in which Granon goes wrong because Pog doesn't spend all his energy). The time loss was small today but the psychological boost to Pog & his team will be worth way more than the time they gained.

Jumbo certainly blew up UAE before they took their shot. That's how it's done in professional cycling, if you can do it.

 

[Salvarani]

Chapeau Pogacar - followed until an attack at the right moment.
Kwiatkowski is a good rider but the fact he could follow for so long showed that this was no "full gas" last climb. Big question is, where was Kelderman when he was needed? Jumbo messed up, were lucky to get away with it and must think of how to use WvA.
UAE need to up their game or Pogacar will be isolated all too quickly and often.

Kelderman did a massive pull on Tourmalet and got it down to Kuss, Vinge, Pog and Hindley.

 

[Boehmand]

Jumbo rode a perfect race, until Vingegaard decided to keep pushing on with Pogacar on his wheel, on the steep part of the last climb.

At that point he should have insisted on Pogacar taking pulls, or pulled off to get in behind him.

A lack of tactical mindset there, probably made the difference in the end.

 

[Trofonios]

TJV did it perfectly until after Tourmalet. They had van Aert in front when Vingegaard attacked, Pog had no domestiques ahead. It was a really strong attack but luckily for Pog he managed to hold on. He said himself that he was worried when TJV uped the pace with Kelderman and Kuss, fearing a repeat from yesterday. If Pog had dropped the tour would have been over because with van Aert pulling Vingegaard in the valley and on the last climb, and Pog having no help, he would have lost at least 90s.

The mistake was that TJV did no adjust their tactic when it was clear that Pog was on a better day. Vingegaard pulled way too long on the steep section on the last climb and was more or less setting up Pog for an attack. TJV got greedy, they had already distanced Hindley with 2 minutes and Vingegaard was up 53s on Pog, but still they wanted more.

 

[Rob5091]

Kelderman did a massive pull on Tourmalet and got it down to Kuss, Vinge, Pog and Hindley.

Shame the finish was not at the top of the Tourmalet!

 

[Eddy Evenepoel]

Big question is, where was Kelderman when he was needed?

Kelderman was the guy blowing the peloton to absolute pieces on Tourmalet and dropped quality riders like Yates. You can't complain about his effort.

 

[Tim Cahill]

It wasn't wrong of Jumbo to take the race to Pogacar after a bad day, make hay whilst the sun shines and all that. In fact I think they did the right thing nuking Tourmalet and having riders ahead. The failure was in continuing on and not really knowing what to do when it didn't work, he should've remembered on the last climb that really it was Pogacar that needed to attack and take time.

 

[Samu Cuenca]

Where on the route will the Belgians attack out of boredom?

 

[Boehmand]

Where on the route will the Belgians attack out of boredom?

The stage is over dude

 

[RedheadDane]

Where on the route will the Belgians attack out of boredom?

Van Aert attacked right from the start.

 

[Unterlenkerfahrend]

Couple of points:
- Jumbos has a ridiculous team.
- They should've left Kuss pulling longer, potentially even over the Tourmalet to use him on the last climb (obviously a bit 20/20 hindsight).
- Vingegaard must've clearly miscalculated something completely, I don't think Pogacar was even that strong on the last climb, I'd be curious about the numbers later but I think some in the chasing group did the climb quicker than Jonas.
- Unless something surprising happens top 2 should be clear and 3-5 (Hindley, Rodriguez, S. Yates) as well in whatever order.

I couldn't watch between the top of Tourmalet and half of Cauterets because of an appointment so just had the time to rewatch that:
The chasers lost a whole minute (!) to the front group because it was a pure WVA vs Buchmann ITT on the flat. Buchmann then continued to pull 15s back on the climb before Bernal took over and took another 15s back on Wout. Crazy effort from Buchmann (I take everything back I said about being a meh teammate) but he was clearly a terrible option to pull on the flat. Guys behind were visibly chilling and freewheeling at times. I understand that other teams look at Hindley and Bora to pull but still - if there was more cooperation from Ineos, stronger guys pulling on the flat and then Buchmann and Bernal on the climb I believe they could've gotten near a minute at the end.


Overall these Pyrenees was about as good as it could possibly get. Mad action despite "soft" stage design yet race full open.

 

[Ulle97]

In fairness, I don't think Vingegaard launching it on the Tourmalet is what most observers had in mind after yesterday. Even the Eurosport commentators didn't believe this scenario would happen (i.e. a Vingegaard long ranger).

The more commonly accepted theory was Vingegaard would drop Pog on Cauterets, or on Sunday on Puy de Dôme.

I agree with this to an extent and it is probably the more measured approach for Vingegaard to increase his lead.

Having had 3 major successes against Pogacar in the last 12 months (Granon, Hautacam, Marie Blanque) his confidence was obviously very strong.

I agree it was a gamble today but it made a spectacle and a half. Everyone is Captain Hindsight now after the event but if it came off, he'd be commended.

The truth is, nobody ever knows if an attack will pay off. It's a risk that you must be brave enough to take. Given his recent Tour success against Pog, I can see why he went to try and kill the race today.