Tour de France Tour de France 2024, Stage 11: Évaux-les-Bains > Le Lioran, 211km

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GroupDK

GroupDK

Sep 7, 2010
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Interesting to hear Vingegaard's interview, as he was cooked when Pogacar attacked, and Jonas didn't had it and just accepted, that Pogzacar was the best, and simply focus on not losing too much, find a rythme
and then he could see his wattage was not bad, so he just kept that pace to minimise loss, and was quite surprised when he started to gain on Pogacar and realized that Pogacar was also hitting the ceiling.
´´
Gotta give Vingegaard a lot of confidence, that his uphill pace is quite potent mano-o-mano, and it ain't - see you later alligator, even if he loses Pogacar's wheel, as there are signs now that he can haul him in.

Vingegaard's biggest force is his longevity, when it comes to these grand tours.
Beautiful win/comeback after being dropped.. great for the Tour, that he seems to have a form that can challenge Pogacar, at least to an extent.
 
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Froome

Froome

Jan 29, 2021
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42x16ss said:
For the third year running, Pogacar will not win the Tour riding like this.
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When you are facing the best climber in the world (also coming from injury), he needs to ride like this and take advantage of the opportunities, like today and the gravel stage, who suited him.

He needs to get the biggest gap possible between what's coming in the last 8 day racing.

If Vingegaard wasn't here, Pogacar wins the stage with a big gap to remco and roglic. Pogacar did good numbers after a hard stage.
 
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CyclistAbi

May 29, 2019
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red_flanders said:
Not the rule on "every other stage". If you're gonna scold people, being totally wrong may not be a good look.

Obviously there's no reason to criticize the rule on flat stages. Having it on this stage is fairly unusual. Hence the discussion.
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Stage 11 was not a summit finish and it ended with a reduced bunch sprint. So really nothing out of the ordinary here. Organizer made the right call.
 
42x16ss

42x16ss

May 23, 2009
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Froome said:
When you are facing the best climber in the world (also coming from injury), he needs to ride like this and take advantage of the opportunities, like today and the gravel stage, who suited him.

He needs to get the biggest gap possible between what's coming in the last 8 day racing.

If Vingegaard wasn't here, Pogacar wins the stage with a big gap to remco and roglic. Pogacar did good numbers after a hard stage.
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31kms to go is too early with the racing Pogacar already has in his legs. Vingegaard is slowly coming back to form as well. And what is the point of such an overpowered team if you aren't going to use it?
 
Gigs_98

Gigs_98

Feb 18, 2015
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Red Rick said:
It was also in effect in stage 4. Which means they very specifically decided it wasn't only about bunch sprints.
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Clearly, otherwise we wouldn't be discussing this after stage 11. But just because they decided to stubbornly apply the rule to any stage without a mtf doesn't mean that's what the rule should be used for. I also think it's particularly weird for a stage that's not just mountainous throughout, but actually finishes uphill. Like, I was genuinely wondering whether Remco might be able to drop Roglic on the final km before the crash happened. Hell, even on stage 4 there were splits between the chasing group on the final km. That kind of racing is so obviously not well suited for this kind of rule.
 
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red_flanders

red_flanders

Apr 3, 2009
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CyclistAbi said:
Stage 11 was not a summit finish and it ended with a reduced bunch sprint. So really nothing out of the ordinary here. Organizer made the right call.
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Uh...2 guys is not a "reduced bunch sprint". The rule was in place on this stage because of the dangerous descent. Which is unusual if not unprecedented. The stage finished on a short climb. The discussion exists because one rider simply crashed himself. It was totally his own mistake, and he suffered no time loss because of it. Which we can all recognize is...fairly lame.

It was the correct application of the letter of the rule.

But the discussion is whether it's a good rule, and whether it was applied sensibly. Did the judgement align with the intent of the rule? Did it make the race safer? No. Not today, no one rode any differently because of it. Did it make the race more fair? No, today it clearly it made the race less fair. Could it have made the race more fair if an actual "bunch" had arrived at the line? Yes, absolutely it could have. If the narrow, wet road caused riders to crash into one another, that's what the rule is for. Clearly that's not what happened. One rider made a mistake, affecting no one but himself.

So the organization applied the letter of the rule, ignoring the value of the rule. They could have determined otherwise, clearly. IMO the rule should be modified or applied with judgement. Rewarding (yes, rewarding) a guy for crashing himself out, doesn't align with my personal view on cycling. No matter the rider.
 
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Gigs_98

Gigs_98

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Red Rick said:
They have the pointless green jersey points penalties for when 80 dudes in the grupetto arrive too late.

I think you can change the rule slightly so there's a default or a maximum you can lose. You don't wanna incentivize faking a mechanical.

I do agree Rog might have lost a second or two in this finale.
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I think prior to the race the organizers should simply declare where the rule applies and where not solely based on where they think it makes sense. If it's guaranteed not to end in a bunch sprint don't use the rule or you'll end up with controversial situations. The thought came to my mind today that if Fernando Alonso was a cyclist, he would intentionally crash right where Roglic did ten out of ten times. Not that Roglic did it on purpose, I'm absolutely certain he didn't. But if you feel that your legs are done, you are afraid to drop on the final ramp but you know you can get the same time as the guy you are riding with, that's a sneaky way to avoid a time loss that's gonna work every single time.
 
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CyclistAbi

May 29, 2019
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@red_flanders

OK so in your opinion the rule should be amended and only to be applied if:
  • More than 2 cyclists sprint at the finish line.
  • Doesn't include dangerous descend.
  • The finish is pancake flat.
  • Riders crashing should be excluded and not protected by the rule.

Basically what you are saying is you are against such rule in the first place, as your suggestions invalidate it altogether. Or, are you suggesting that the rule should only exclude Rogla and the rest of the rule works for you? Due to being salty Rogla finished 21s down on stage winner and in the same time as Remco today. Something we see very often, when other riders involved, and nobody even mentions it.
 
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red_flanders

red_flanders

Apr 3, 2009
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CyclistAbi said:
@red_flanders

OK so in your opinion the rule should be amended and only to be applied if:
  • More than 2 cyclists sprint at the finish line.
  • Doesn't include dangerous descend.
  • The finish is pancake flat.
  • Riders crashing should be excluded and not protected by the rule.

Basically what you are saying is you are against such rule in the first place, as your suggestions invalidate it altogether. Or, are you suggesting that the rule should only exclude Rogla and the rest of the rule works for you? Due to being salty Rogla finished 21s down on stage winner and in the same time as Remco today. Something we see very often, when other riders involved, and nobody even mentions it.
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This is the second time in 2 days that you've made some fairly nonsensical responses to my posts. I can't even list all the things wrong with this one, but first and foremost it's a strawman argument and it's ridiculous. I'm sorry but I'm not going to spend time refuting all of this.

-----

I'm home sick today, and have been reading forums all over the internet. Twitter, Reddit, YouTube, Weilerflits or whatever it's called...I must have seen 50 posts to the effect of, "I'm a Roglič fan, but that ruling is stupid".

Really not sure what else needs to be said.
 
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CyclistAbi

May 29, 2019
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@red_flanders

I listed your proposals and as such i don't know on why would you call my response nonsensical. As for the social media, i won't lose any sleep over that, rest assured. If tomorrow somebody crashes at the end of the stage and riders involved will get the same time. Nobody will cry about it. Today was no different.

As for you being sick, get well soon.
 
Zoetemelk-fan

Zoetemelk-fan

Oct 5, 2009
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Just watched the stage.
Jawdropping. No less.
I Just hope UAE learn from this. Just a couple of more matches burnt by Tadej and I'm afraid that result would be R.I.P. tension between the two.
Wrote similar concerns for Pogi last year pre 16th stage, when the two were even closer in the GC, and that the tiny displays of fatigue by Pogi was felt with fear of cracking .

However, it looked very close today, and I attribute Pogi's surprising loss in a hill sprint more to the fact that his breakaway was 1) longer and 2) solo, until Jonas catched him.

The decisive stages, with Vingegaard's current form and, if he in addition shows even further courage on stage 14 (Tourmalet - Plan d'Adet), stage 15 (P^lateau de Beille), stage 19 (Isola 2000) and Stage 20 (Col de la Couillole).
While Pogi's good stages stages should be stage 17 (Superdévuy) and Stage 20 (Monaco - Nice ITT). Unless he's really under pressure.

If he isn't, he can be lucky and play poker on stage 18. The long descent from Cîme de la Bonette du Restefond to Barcelonette could actually be a good opportunity for him if he shows descents like from Galibier to Valloire. Except this descent is just as technical as the upper part of the Galibier, just much longer. And that might balance it out a bit. OK maybe not - I think Jonas has a good feeling about reading Pogi and will pounce if there is something to come. Just mentions this as a possibility if they turn out to be completely on par, once again.

However, week 3 is still uncharted territory for both of them with Pogi's Giro and Jonas' Itzulia.

Would say a slight upper hand to Jonas, but if UAE can get it figured out on the difficult stages, then it could well be the other way around.

I don't know if it's wishful thinking, because right as I'm writing, I'm just happy that Pogi just has a few days to recover, otherwise it could get really ugly and the situation turned upside down.....

(edit, again about half a day behind due to busy hours at worst possible moment - will catch up on race thread tomorrow).
 
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Zoetemelk-fan

Zoetemelk-fan

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Red Rick said:
People calling the gravel stage stage of the decade when it takes literally only 2 stages to eclipse it by a country mile.
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I gladly admit that I was quite happy about the gravel stage, to say it mildly.
But just as I could dream of spice at the intermediate stage (which never came on the table), I don't reject ordering a little extra spice and it shows up to be a Carolina Reaper.
I won't say no to that - for me, one doesn't exclude the other - two strong menus so close to each other I can't exactly be depressed about :)
 
RobertCrawley

RobertCrawley

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