Tour de France Tour de France 2024, Stage 11: Évaux-les-Bains > Le Lioran, 211km

[Netserk]

The rule has been in place for a long time. This was a standard incidence for its application and it was a standard stage to have it applied to.

Note that it technically doesn't matter whether or not the finish is atop a categorised climb (or shortly after). What matters is if the finish has been recognised by the race organiser as a summit finish. So the rule was not in place on Courchevel (last categorised climb was 6.6 km from the finish), while it was in place for stage 1 in 2011 when the finish-line was on a category 4 climb.

As it covers punctures and other mechanical incidences, it's nonsense to say that the spirit of the rule is (solely) about group crashes and safer finishes.

 

[CyclistAbi]

What a surprise.

Also, what is that kinda nonsense that Kittel is spewing?

Yeah, what should Kittel know and occasional lawyers on social media are rather golden too.

 

[QueenStagiaire]

Yeah, what should Kittel know and occasional lawyers on social media are rather golden too.

What should Kittel know on riding together in a sort of breakaway group? Really not much more than the average forum poster.

 

[Fantastico]

The 3km rule applied in this stage raises a few 'what if' questions for me:

- What if Roglic had been all alone when he crashed? This is probably the easiest question. He would have been given his real finishing time.
- What if Roglic had been 5 seconds behind Remco when he crashed? I guess he would have been given his real time as well.
- What if Roglic had been 5 seconds in front of Remco when he crashed and Remco passed him before he could get going again? Would he have got Remco's time? I guess so.
- What if Roglic was in front of Remco and thus made Remco crash or hold up as well and they didn't finish in the same time? Would they in any case have got the same time as the first rider between the two who finishes?

While I agree that applying this rule on a stage like yesterday feels odd, in principle all these scenarios may also happen on a flat stage. These questions are more about the rule in general than about its application yesterday.

 

[CyclistAbi]

What should Kittel know on riding together in a sort of breakaway group? Really not much more than the average forum poster.

An average forum poster that is arguing on why did a crash rule apply on where a rider crashed. But OK, to be fair to Kittel and an average forum poster, you really should read the article i posted, as Kittel didn't say anything about the crash rule, he only said it was disrespectful from Remco, to push Rogla.

 

[CyclistAbi]

While I agree that applying this rule on a stage like yesterday feels odd, in principle all these scenarios may also happen on a flat stage. These questions are more about the rule in general than about its application yesterday.

Yeah and the crash rule in my opinion won't ever change in a way some people are suggesting, that is to remove it altogether. On top of that likely this rule will be applied rather soonish again, and lets see if people will cry about it in that stage thread too. It's here specifically, when it was applied for Rogla, this specific case is on what is rubbing some people in the wrong way. On why can't Rogla be excluded from the rule, the lengths.

 

[Berflamand]

While I agree that applying this rule on a stage like yesterday feels odd, in principle all these scenarios may also happen on a flat stage. These questions are more about the rule in general than about its application yesterday.

True but those scenarios are a lot more likely to happen on a mountain stage than on a flat stage.

But ok, I don't know if it warrants any change in the (application of the) rule because this particular scenario was quite unique and probably isn't going to repeat itself that much in the future.

It just feels strange but I guess general rules can't always cater perfectly to every specific scenario possible.

 

[Zoetemelk-fan]

Again, after another absolutely fabulous stage, I'm half a day behind the news
And only just started catching up after watching the stage late last night.

I still need to read 90% of the posts in this thread, but I just have to summarize, at least for myself.

Just at the time of writing I've read from various "experts" that Pogi did not get enough nutrients.

I strongly doubt that a professional cyclist will "forget" this kind of thing in 2024 - it was something you witnessed in the pro field in the happy days up to the mid-1990s, as were the amateurs.

Still have memories as a teen in late 1980ies when hitting the wall hard and had barely 40km back home in severe sugar deficit and dehydration after too high a pace on my first +100k solo ride (ended up as 150k).

It was a lesson of which you only needed one, not two.
Not only in terms of cycling but in terms of life - always drink before you get thirsty, eat before you get hungry, past 15 years here with electrolytes - at the forefront, at the forefront.

And Pogi had planned that attack already back in October.

That's why I want to shut down that explanation completely - even if it comes from professional people like Michael Rasmussen and others. They have really lost their heads IMO.

I interpret yesterday's stage more in the small details.

1) First that Pogi goes all in from the distance

2) Pogi is solo until Jonas catches up with him

3) Jonas gets a little help from Rogla, just a few seconds but crucial in terms of not losing further seconds but on the contrary gaining a few with the result of extra motivation, getting this info in his ears.

4) Jonas is more measured. He himself mentions in the post race interview that he did not expect to see Pogi again but wanted to ride the remeinder of the stage as a TT. It's a big contrast in what ends up being a pursuit race.

5) The sprint just emphasizes this. Riding with snake bite vs. to race measured and dosed and what is left. It makes up the difference.

However, I still don't dare to call Jonas as favorite for a 3rd Tour victory in a row.

If Pogi is smart, he could really just turn the tables and try to look for Jonas' rear wheel.
If such a thing exists.

 

[Netserk]

Not the Strava segments Ive seen? 2020 stage was also super hard and it came after more altitude gain, and they did Neronne way faster

Based on ammattipyoraily's times.

 

[Armchair Cyclist]

The 3km rule applied in this stage raises a few 'what if' questions for me:

- What if Roglic had been all alone when he crashed? This is probably the easiest question. He would have been given his real finishing time.

I presume, but am not certain, that the worst he could have been given was that of the following group (if they had caught or overtaken him) The rule, poorly drafted, doesn't account for single riders.

- What if Roglic had been 5 seconds behind Remco when he crashed? I guess he would have been given his real time as well.

Then he is on his own, see my assumption above

- What if Roglic had been 5 seconds in front of Remco when he crashed and Remco passed him before he could get going again? Would he have got Remco's time? I guess so.

I believe so, and in making that assumption you have agreed with my first guess.

- What if Roglic was in front of Remco and thus made Remco crash or hold up as well and they didn't finish in the same time? Would they in any case have got the same time as the first rider between the two who finishes?

At this point, the rule really breaks down. Roglic presumably couldn't be given a worse time than Evenepoel (see above): pure guess, but commissaires would announce that, in the interests of fair play, Evenepoel would be given the time gap to Roglic (if he had been more delayed) that there was before the incident. But someone (my guess is @Libertine Seguros ) will be along to cite a case where something else happened.

It might be the standard and correct application of the rule but it does feel really strange to apply it in this particular case.

Roglic was lucky to have been able to use it in the best possible way. Being in the wheel of someone he didn't hinder with his crash and who pushed it all the way to the line as hard as possible and subsequently getting that same time.

I strongly suspect that 2.6.027 review has been added to the agenda for the October conference in the last 18 hours.

 

[Netserk]

UCI are usually more keen to react after flaws are exposed than at trying to predict when their rules might be badly written, so expect a re-write of this one at their conference around the time of the World Championships (either road book to identify when it applies, or clearer "unless stage ends with, or has within last 3 km, a categorised climb")

It's mentioned in the rules and regulations section every time for which stages it doesn't apply. So status quo is perfectly fine.

 

[Devil's Elbow]

The obvious answer is to give everyone the same time as Mollema.

 

[Berniece]

He only said it was disrespectful from Remco, to push Rogla.

Then properly take a turn or get disrespected

 

[CyclistAbi]

Then properly take a turn or get disrespected

You can diss other riders in interviews, be salty about it and are entitled to believe you are in the right ... No problem with that. What else would we then discuss on the forums.

Such actions on the other hand are crossing the boundary. I am sure that if Remco would continue with such actions he would need to face the consequences too. Said that i am sure that he will never do it again.

 

[Netserk]

Then properly take a turn or get disrespected

Cycling is not a pulling contest. No one owns anyone else a pull.

 

[Berniece]

Cycling is not a pulling contest. No one owns anyone else a pull.

No one is saying he should. He’ll just get disrespected for not doing it.

 

[rallybanana]

The 3km rule applied in this stage raises a few 'what if' questions for me:

- What if Roglic had been all alone when he crashed? This is probably the easiest question. He would have been given his real finishing time.
- What if Roglic had been 5 seconds behind Remco when he crashed? I guess he would have been given his real time as well.
- What if Roglic had been 5 seconds in front of Remco when he crashed and Remco passed him before he could get going again? Would he have got Remco's time? I guess so.
- What if Roglic was in front of Remco and thus made Remco crash or hold up as well and they didn't finish in the same time? Would they in any case have got the same time as the first rider between the two who finishes?

Another 'what if' question:
What if there was no moto camera to film the crash? If it wasn't captured on video did the crash ever happen? Do they need to look for independent witnesses?

 

[Netserk]

No one is saying he should. He’ll just get disrespected for not doing it.

Disrespect by words and waving is fine, and pathetic, but pushing another rider in front of you is more than that.

 

[CyclistAbi]

Another 'what if' question:
What if there was no moto camera to film the crash? If it wasn't captured on video did the crash ever happen? Do they need to look for independent witnesses?

In such case Remco would back Rogla, being there.

 

[Berniece]

Disrespect by words and waving is fine, and pathetic, but pushing another rider in front of you is more than that.

I think we have different definitions about pushing. A simple hand on the back isn’t pushing. Then again you also think someone saying you should show big balls is an insult. Maybe it has more to do with the rider than the action.

 

[Taxus4a]

Jonas is very emotional in his post-race interview. He's come a long way back. What a warrior.

That is good balls

 

[topcat]

Is anyone else finding it funny that Pog is completely ignoring the fact that Rog is in the race? Pog is aware that Vingo is in the race and Vingo is coming for him. Pog and Remco have decided to buddy up and are co conspirators but Rog isn't worth dropping? I have a different attitude. I let my wife catch up so I can drop her all over again. The fun never ends.

 

[CyclistAbi]

@topcat

In first couple of stages one of our big commercial TV station forgot to mention Rogla was in the race too. Seems to be all are catching up now. Rogla likely a bit angry about that, now blowing his cover.

 

[Nick2413]

Does anyone know what happened to Gall on this stage? PCS lists -20” time loss in red as if some sort of penalty.

 

[Tim Cahill]

Does anyone know what happened to Gall on this stage? PCS lists -20” time loss in red as if some sort of penalty.

Gall had quite the stage yesterday, he was dropped many times, at some point I think he had moto assistance getting back on hence the penalty. Insane where he finished, get money on him winning one of those big mtn stages in week 3.