Tour de France Tour de France 2024, Stage 13: Agen > Pau, 165.3 km

[RobertCrawley]

I actually have participated in bunch sprints, not at 70km/u that's true, but anyways.

Van Gils was doing a leadout for De Lie, not sure what you're even trying to say. Just look at the overhead again. There's a pretty big gap on the left of Capiot, who stops for a second and then starts drifting to the left again. It's absolutely normal Van Gils goes for that gap. Plenty of room. Sure maybe the shoulder thing is a bit violent but is just a normal reflex to make sure you yourself don't crash into the barriers.

So then you know there's a lot of yelling in the bunch sprint telling guys that you're coming on the left. No need for the hard shoulder to send a guy hard to the ground.

 

[ManicJack]

And that's exactly what van Gils has to anticipate.

Not according to all the experienced bunch sprinters on this forum 🙄

 

[Eyeballs Out]

To me, both Van Gils and Capiot make mistakes.

Van Gils is doing a leadout but he's not really a leadout guy so perhaps understandable for him. His mistake is going for a closing gap, which might be worth the risk for a sprinter but isn't for him - De Lie probably gets blocked even if he himself squeezes through. Because Van Gils is low and Capiot has sat up his shoulder makes contact with Capiot's elbow which is why he falls dramatically to the left rather than getting knocked to the right.

Capiot looks left, must see Van Gils coming on that side yet then drifts that way. The only way I can explain that is if he's deliberately trying to block the path in which case it's hard to have much sympathy. Just keep your line!

 

[staubsauger]

You can't ride through a gap, when a leadout man is about to drop off. Simply because the gap won't be there anymore. Van Gils simply knocks over Capiot.

It's an error, but certainly not enough to throw him out of the race.

 

[ingsve]

They had already lost more time than they wanted most likely but it was probably not in their plan for Enric Mas and Louis Meintjes to lose over 13 minutes on a stage like this.

 

[red_flanders]

Van Gils's reaction aside, it's incredibly dangerous to drift back like that so riders can't pass you (safely) on both sides. Once he was clear of the main group, he should have drifted back without looking over his shoulders, but instead make sure that he keeps his lane and goes straight.

Exactly. What's the first thing and the most frequent thing you hear riding in a pack?

"Hold your line!!!"

 

[red_flanders]

Not according to all the experienced bunch sprinters on this forum 🙄

You're mocking because some folks here have actually raced, at whatever level?

 

[RobertCrawley]

Exactly. What's the first thing and the most frequent thing you hear riding in a pack?

"Hold your line!!!"

Not exactly in those nice words . . .

 

[kingjr]

To me, both Van Gils and Capiot make mistakes.

Van Gils is doing a leadout but he's not really a leadout guy so perhaps understandable for him. His mistake is going for a closing gap, which might be worth the risk for a sprinter but isn't for him - De Lie probably gets blocked even if he himself squeezes through. Because Van Gils is low and Capiot has sat up his shoulder makes contact with Capiot's elbow which is why he falls dramatically to the left rather than getting knocked to the right.

Capiot looks left, must see Van Gils coming on that side yet then drifts that way. The only way I can explain that is if he's deliberately trying to block the path in which case it's hard to have much sympathy. Just keep your line!

You cannot judge someone's speed from looking behind for a brief moment.

 

[ManicJack]

You're mocking because some folks here have actually raced, at whatever level?

Not mocking anyone for actually having raced a bike, but equating experiences that are most likely from industrial park cat 3 crits is worthless

 

[red_flanders]

Not exactly in those nice words . . .

Definitely not! And so often it's ridiculous, but one quickly gets the idea.

 

[RobertCrawley]

Not mocking anyone for actually having raced a bike, but equating experiences that are most likely from industrial park cat 3 crits is worthless

Hey, hey. Easy on industrial park Cat 3s.

 

[Netserk]

No longer possible since they remodelled Place Gramont. They could come from Rue Marca instead but that's the least convenient place to enter Place Verdun.

Yeah, I'd go straight up Marca and then turn right to take the same last 1.5 km as in 2006.

 

[Eyeballs Out]

You cannot judge someone's speed from looking behind for a brief moment.

Which perfectly explains why it is wrong to assume you can drift that way without potentially causing an accident

 

[red_flanders]

Not mocking anyone for actually having raced a bike, but equating experiences that are most likely from industrial park cat 3 crits is worthless

I'd be interested to hear why someone's Cat 3 (incidentally that's where I raced) experience isn't more relevant than someone's "I watch it on TV" experience.

Putting yourself if the fray brings a WHOLE lotta experience and information about what goes on in a pack. Fundamentals are the same. Speed is very different.

 

[Sciatic]

Which perfectly explains why it is wrong to assume you can drift that way without potentially causing an accident

Sure, there’s responsibility for that rider as well.

 

[RobertCrawley]

Magnus Cort's mustache gets the Prix de la Combativité.

 

[kingjr]

Which perfectly explains why it is wrong to assume you can drift that way without potentially causing an accident

If the riders behind you are really close, except they weren't. There was more than enough time for van Gils to slow down, and he had all the visual information he needed to do so, yet he decided to take the risk, and this is the result.

 

[jaylew]

Not mocking anyone for actually having raced a bike, but equating experiences that are most likely from industrial park cat 3 crits is worthless

That's simply not true.

 

[ManicJack]

I'd be interested to hear why someone's Cat 3 (incidentally that's where I raced) experience isn't more relevant than someone's "I watch it on TV" experience.

Putting yourself if the fray brings a WHOLE lotta experience and information about what goes on in a pack. Fundamentals are the same. Speed is very different.

I'm scarred head to toe from putting myself into the fray in hundreds of elite/pro races and most of those scars came from bad decisions, mine or others, like we watched today.

 

[RobertCrawley]

Tadej says they will now ride defensively in the Pyrenees. I'm not sure he will be able to do that.

Tadej Pogacar, à la veille des Pyrénées : « On peut maintenant courir un peu sur la défensive » (Tour de France)

Le Maillot Jaune Tadej Pogacar, à la veille des Pyrénées, a vécu une journée intense et perdu un coéquipier, Juan Ayuso. Il annonce qu'il va peut-être courir différemment à partir de samedi.

www.lequipe.fr

 

[red_flanders]

I'm scarred head to toe from putting myself into the fray in hundreds of elite/pro races and most of those scars came from bad decisions, mine or others, like we watched today.

And was the experience at that level fundamentally different? All I ever noticed was that it got safer the further up the rankings you went, because more people knew what they were doing. I would occasionally race Cat 2 with my team (never qualified, but was allowed) and it was so much cleaner than Cat 3. Guys knew what was up.

 

[Unchained]

I'd be interested to hear why someone's Cat 3 (incidentally that's where I raced) experience isn't more relevant than someone's "I watch it on TV" experience.

Putting yourself if the fray brings a WHOLE lotta experience and information about what goes on in a pack. Fundamentals are the same. Speed is very different.

Don't think anyone's experience is less valid. Today they are rolling at pretty significant speed, leaning on someone with your head ,shoulder, or hip happens all the time, arm and handlebar contact is all day long including in the sprint.
The same amount of contact that caused the crash happened in every race this week.. When the planets align you are going down. When it's your time it's your time.
In US racing your time is every forth or fifth race!!
And Belgian and German upgrade system is very very straight forward, same in France, if you win you move up, and when you win, it has to be at a race of minimum distance and a minimum field of @40-50 riders registered.
If you want to fix American racing take away social promotion and feel good bullschit. Get a Cat5 license, get 10 points move up.. 4 pts for a win, 3 for second,2 for 3rd and 1 for top ten. Bike handling and constant crashing solve themselves.. Have Cat2 and some 1s that are fashion clowns!! Winning should be the only path to upgrading.. Too many professional Cat3 riders with $10-15,000 bikes and no skills!!

 

[red_flanders]

Don't think anyone's experience is less valid. Today they are rolling at pretty significant speed, leaning on someone with your head ,shoulder, or hip happens all the time, arm and handlebar contact is all day long including in the sprint.
The same amount of contact that caused the crash happened in every race this week.. When the planets align you are going down. When it's your time it's your time.

Well I think zero experience is less valid, and the more experienced a racer is, the more valid I would say the commentary is, generally.

But agree on all the rest, 100%.

 

[ManicJack]

And was the experience at that level fundamentally different? I ever noticed was that it got safer the further up the rankings you went, because more people knew what they were doing. I would occasionally race Cat 2 with my team (never qualified, but was allowed) and it was so much cleaner than Cat 3. Guys knew what was up.

That's true in general but field sprinting in pros is a completely different game.