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Tour de France Tour de France 2024, Stage 15 14/7 Loudenvielle-Plateau de Beille 197.7k

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Miha81

Miha81

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staubsauger

staubsauger

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Rackham

Rackham

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Miha81 said:
Found it. It was in this thread all along :/

https://twitter.com/x/status/1812603801855267010
View: https://x.com/ammattipyoraily/status/1812603801855267010?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1812603801855267010%7Ctwgr%5Ecbb5ac80a0c467cbb02c99d176c91dab6a272616%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fforum.cyclingnews.com%2Fthreads%2Ftour-de-france-2024-stage-15-14-7-loudenvielle-plateau-de-beille-197-7k.39810%2Fpage-53
Click to expand...

Some people are always so desperate to prove Pog & Vinge aren't better than Pantani by desperately looking for mitigating circumstances regarding their ascent times.

But they really are a lot faster than Pantani. By a huge margin. Embrace it. People wanted to claim Jorgenson's pull was the reason for the huge gap versus Pantani's time but it evidently wasn't. They're the best climbers of the past 40 years & probably in the history of the sport.
 
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Peyroteo94

Peyroteo94

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Rackham said:
Some people are always so desperate to prove Pog & Vinge aren't better than Pantani by desperately looking for mitigating circumstances regarding their ascent times.

But they really are a lot faster than Pantani. By a huge margin. Embrace it. People wanted to claim Jorgenson's pull was the reason for the huge gap versus Pantani's time but it evidently wasn't. They're the best climbers of the past 40 years & probably in the history of the sport.
Click to expand...
Spot on! They are in a league of their own!
 
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CleanCiclismo

CleanCiclismo

May 7, 2024
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Rackham said:
Some people are always so desperate to prove Pog & Vinge aren't better than Pantani by desperately looking for mitigating circumstances regarding their ascent times.

But they really are a lot faster than Pantani. By a huge margin. Embrace it. People wanted to claim Jorgenson's pull was the reason for the huge gap versus Pantani's time but it evidently wasn't. They're the best climbers of the past 40 years & probably in the history of the sport.
Click to expand...
My 2 cents, if Pantani was racing today, say in team Bora or hell Visma, he would also be a lot faster than he was at the time. A lot of things improved since 1998. Not just the bikes and nutrition but also attitude. And this isn't seen just in cycling. In a lot of other sports it's becoming more and more like gladiators rather than competitors. Football now has more than 70 games in a season for the best players for example, when say 20 years ago you had Zidane playing 40 games and it was considered a lot. Going back to cycling, teams also have a lot more money to play with. I imagine just getting a good night sleep does wonders for a lot of riders. If you look at those reviews by Cort you can see that there is a huge gap between teams. UAE, Ineos, Bora have their own sleeping arrangements with specialised mattresses, air purifiers...you name it. Money is no obstacle for them, while teams like Uno-X have to sleep in bunker like conditions peeing in bottles during the night. Even the staff that follows them around is huge compared to the 90s. Every rider has their own masseuse, nutrition plan, likely their own coach. So yeah Pantani would be flying if he was to compete today.
 
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B

Brullnux

Mar 31, 2015
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Rackham said:
Some people are always so desperate to prove Pog & Vinge aren't better than Pantani by desperately looking for mitigating circumstances regarding their ascent times.

But they really are a lot faster than Pantani. By a huge margin. Embrace it. People wanted to claim Jorgenson's pull was the reason for the huge gap versus Pantani's time but it evidently wasn't. They're the best climbers of the past 40 years & probably in the history of the sport.
Click to expand...
People don't want Vingegaard and Pogacar to be faster than Pantani, but not for some nostalgic protection of the past... much the opposite.
 
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Netserk

Netserk

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CleanCiclismo said:
My 2 cents, if Pantani was racing today, say in team Bora or hell Visma, he would also be a lot faster than he was at the time. A lot of things improved since 1998. Not just the bikes and nutrition but also attitude. And this isn't seen just in cycling. In a lot of other sports it's becoming more and more like gladiators rather than competitors. Football now has more than 70 games in a season for the best players for example, when say 20 years ago you had Zidane playing 40 games and it was considered a lot. Going back to cycling, teams also have a lot more money to play with. I imagine just getting a good night sleep does wonders for a lot of riders. If you look at those reviews by Cort you can see that there is a huge gap between teams. UAE, Ineos, Bora have their own sleeping arrangements with specialised mattresses, air purifiers...you name it. Money is no obstacle for them, while teams like Uno-X have to sleep in bunker like conditions peeing in bottles during the night. Even the staff that follows them around is huge compared to the 90s. Every rider has their own masseuse, nutrition plan, likely their own coach. So yeah Pantani would be flying if he was to compete today.
Click to expand...
Swings and roundabouts. It's not as if there has been a constant and gradual improvement in performances since then.
 
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YavorD

Jul 8, 2017
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LMAO at people claiming it's all about improving of bikes and training

Pogacar was dealing with another record of Pantani only 70 days ago and he was 30 seconds (?) behind. Granted he didn't go all in and his team didn't drill as hard as Visma yesterday but he wouldn't be that far ahead.
Meaning that Pantani's records are still very relevant today. And 4 minutes is a whole universe.
 
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Logic-is-your-friend

Logic-is-your-friend

Jun 7, 2011
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Netserk said:
Despite clearly being far from his best in this Tour, I still expected more from him yesterday. I hope for his sake that the heavy race schedule for the rest of the season won't stop him from getting back to his best next year.
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I'm afraid that ship has sailed.

Oldermanish said:
Jorgenson was the guy that took 3 minutes out of the break on one climb today, accelerated and left everyone behind except his guy Jonas and Tadej. He's the guy that could ride across to Tadej on the gravel...realize his Patron is back in the dust and retrieve him....then ride back up to Pogacar while everyone else was also dropped. He also won a stage race and placed 2nd in another by seconds this year after winning a semi-classic. Seems like you could do something with a guy like that.
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You don't say. Taking 3 minutes off a break that has attacked at the start of the hardest stage and attacking each other with no cooperation... that must never have happened before. And being a good domestique on a gravel stage... I'm also waiting for Van Aert to win the Tour.

Oldermanish said:
Another year with team support and he is #2, a recovered Jonas #3, Primoz #4 and Remco still working hard but not built for GTs.
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Oh. ok... That seems like an extremely reasonable non-delusional take. I would get an early bet before the bookies catch on.
As for not being built for GT's (likely TDF podium, Vuelta win, missed a Giro win/podium due to covid). Please post a list of 1m90+ guys (like Jorgenson) winning a GT. Then tell me again how much better he is built for GT's than Evenepoel.
 
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Armchair Cyclist

Armchair Cyclist

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CleanCiclismo said:
...I imagine just getting a good night sleep does wonders for a lot of riders. If you look at those reviews by Cort you can see that there is a huge gap between teams. UAE, Ineos, Bora have their own sleeping arrangements with specialised mattresses, air purifiers...you name it. Money is no obstacle for them, while teams like Uno-X have to sleep in bunker like conditions peeing in bottles during the night.
Click to expand...
I don't believe that this is correct. I read not that many years ago that ASO books hotels, and then all teams have to go where they are sent, and the teams all have a similar mix of different grades of hotel: I believe that is still the case. Yes, some teams might bring items with them, and I guess not all 2* hotels are identical and one team might have been particularly unlucky one night, but the accommodation is not a matter of teams' budget.
 
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O

Oldermanish

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Logic-is-your-friend said:
I'm afraid that ship has sailed.


You don't say. Taking 3 minutes off a break that has attacked at the start of the hardest stage and attacking each other with no cooperation... that must never have happened before. And being a good domestique on a gravel stage... I'm also waiting for Van Aert to win the Tour.


Oh. ok... That seems like an extremely reasonable non-delusional take. I would get an early bet before the bookies catch on.
As for not being built for GT's (likely TDF podium, Vuelta win, missed a Giro win/podium due to covid). Please post a list of 1m90+ guys (like Jorgenson) winning a GT. Then tell me again how much better he is built for GT's than Evenepoel.
Click to expand...
Before you poopoo the effort to pace Jonas you forgot to consider Remco couldn't get up to move from that point on. MJ's pacing setup the eclipse of "Pantani's record..." which is equally dependent on conditions out of his control. But go ahead; suggest it amounts to nothing.

As for tall guys winning a GT: he weighs about the same as Tadej and Primoz. That's an important metric you may ignore unless you consider some other Tour winners.
All of the Sky/Ineos GT Brits were above 6' and weighed more. Then there is Indurain, Bjarne Riis (Senor 60 was also skinny as sh*t)...etc. Height can mean leverage if a rider is not over heavy.

I'm not the one obsessing about Remco's weight or talking about that being his key to winning a Tour or GT. He's physically built more like the Tashkent Terror, Abdoujaporav than Jonas. Unless he has bones removed he is at his healthy, natural stature. He's a great racer.
 
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O

Oldermanish

Jan 31, 2016
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Miha81 said:
I am not sure in which thread it was (will try to find it) but it included map of climb with information how much time was gained in each section of the climb. Most of the advantage was gained in last 5km after Pog's attack.
Click to expand...
Note I posted the "record" in quotes because it is situationally irrelevant. Unless it's a full on TT those ascents occur in such varying conditions to make them pointless. I'll compare the relevancy of climbing records in a race to the miniscule body weight differences of the rider that rode those climbs.
The point was that the Visma rider rode everyone into submission and that's an impressive effort. He's capable of more, for sure.
 
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