Tour de France Tour de France 2024, Stage 5: Saint-Jean-de-Maurienne > Saint-Vulbas, 177.4 km

[Salvarani]

I don't think it makes sense because the hockey player will inevitably score points if set up by his teammates, assuming he plays for a good team. Especially if the team really is set up for that as the primary focus (which sounds lame but I know nothing of the NHL).

You definitely don't get a Tour win just by grinding up the number of stages you ride, nevermind how good a team you ride for.

I get the point that he has been picked up by Astana with the record in mind but it feels like an attempt to diminish his achievements (alluding to its inevitability).

Then again, I rarely think comparisons between ball sports and cycling make much sense.

Surely Cav has had a lot of his teams set up solely to help him win?

I perfectly understood what @Libertine Seguros was trying to say with the example.

 

[meat puppet]

This to me has been a lot like Aleksandr Ovechkin's pursuit of the NHL goals record. It feels somehow wrong for him to break it, cos the guy that holds the record is unquestionably a better player, and for the last few years the entire modus operandi of the Capitals has been to get Ovechkin goals by any means necessary, knowing they will lose games as their team is rebuilding. So they've been sending him out for the whole 2 minutes of the powerplay to stand in the circle and rip shots every time the puck comes near him, sending him out every time the opponent pulls the goalie and instructing others to pass to him for the empty netter, giving him almost 100% offensive-zone starts, and so on, that means that breaking the record feels a little hollow seeing as nobody in their right mind thinks Ovechkin a greater player than Gretzky and it feels a bit wrong to not have Gretzky hold that record, but you just can't help but admire the longevity needed and respect the hustle that has been involved in Ovechkin's quest to get there.

I see Cav in the same way. It doesn't feel right to have Merckx not hold the record, and the fact Cavendish has spread his wins over far more years and has only won one type of stage means it feels a bit hollow that he's the record holder because, hey, he's a sprinter and they always get more chances to win - a bit like the most decorated Olympian always being a swimmer because of the plethora of medals available - and yet having seen all of the highs and lows, and all the people who were thinking in 2009-10 that he'd have broken this record by 2015 because of his dominance, watched him go through reinvention, moving from team to team, breaking down and building himself back up, and... is it three now... repeated attempts to 'get the band back together' for one last shot at the record as he ages out and is forced to adapt to a lesser lead-out and stronger and faster riders around him, and try to do to the young guys what Alessandro Petacchi once did to him... again, I don't really want a one-dimensional sprinter to hold the record and somebody other than Merckx holding it just seems wrong, but it's impossible not to admire the longevity and respect the hustle that has earned him this undisputable place in history.

Shoot me, but Ovechkin is the better player, although I obviously admire Gretzky more. Parachute Ovechkin into Gretzky's context and he dominates like no one ever. Parachute Gretzky into Ovech... actually parachute him directly to an ICU.

So Cavendish made the grade? Meh. The last relic of Brailsford's little stunt.

 

[Tim Cahill]

Jasper seems to have lost a yard of pace, his leadout was a little muddled to. I think Milan and his track guys are by far the best I've seen this year, hopefully they do the tour next year.

 

[proffate]

I see Cav in the same way. It doesn't feel right to have Merckx not hold the record, and the fact Cavendish has spread his wins over far more years and has only won one type of stage means it feels a bit hollow that he's the record holder because, hey, he's a sprinter and they always get more chances to win

Didn't merckx also win sprint stages?

The fact that merckx was more versatile means he had more chances to win. Cav only had one type of stage he could win, so he had to be mega dominant on that terrain. If it were so easy for sprinters he wouldn't be the only one to top Merckx.

Cav is now the second oldest TDF stage winner of all time!! As a sprinter, probably 15 years past the normal peak. Wow!

 

[snipeheem]

“You are what your record says you are.” -- Bill Parcells

Even against farmers.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

So Ronaldo=Ovechkin and Cavendish=Ovechkin? You‘re running out of comparisons

Old guys in pursuit of records.

I have mixed feelings on the Ovechkin saga because of its negative impact for the way the team plays, but then they know they aren't winning anything any time soon so it's the main reason to keep fans coming in. With Ronaldo it's been a series of different stat-padding minor goals (pardon the pun), with Cav it's - like Ovi - a single, definable number that they're working toward.

With Ronaldo I was comparing the negative impact on the way the team plays; with Cav I was comparing the impressive longevity and dedication that it takes to break one of those records.

 

[dgodave]

I don't actually think is rigged, I think he made the history and it's a legitimate great achievement. But it's like Cristiano ronaldo having the all-time international goal record but needing a lot of rigged gifted penalties against weak nations like San marino, faro islands and belgium.

Nobody gifted him that position, which he cannily fought for absent the help of his team. There were countless opportunities to lose this thing even before the jump.

 

[Froome]

Even against farmers.

We still have farmers in the current peloton.

 

[Tim Cahill]

We still have farmers in the current peloton.

Harsh words issued towards young Primoz Roglic.

 

[Ilmaestro99]

Jasper seems to have lost a yard of pace, his leadout was a little muddled to. I think Milan and his track guys are by far the best I've seen this year, hopefully they do the tour next year.

There is a theory out there right now that Philepsen is just not a good sprinter. Last year he got some wins because he had the most perfect lead out in history, but his speed is overrated.

In the giro we got the highest level showdown between Merlier and Johnny

 

[meat puppet]

Harsh words issued towards young Primoz Roglic.

And miners if we're to believe tom dumoulin.

 

[saunaking]

Did you see Merckx riding? Genuinely question because if you didn't how can you say it feels wrong? Maybe Merckx won a lot of stages by beating amateur riders. I don't know because I didn't see him racing.

Half (actually more than half!!!) of Merckx stage wins were TTs. So not much to watch to be honest

 

[Froome]

Harsh words issued towards young Primoz Roglic.

I wasn't talking about mountain sprinters, but about guys like rubio, tiberi, martinez, and o conner.

 

[proffate]

Jasper seems to have lost a yard of pace, his leadout was a little muddled to. I think Milan and his track guys are by far the best I've seen this year, hopefully they do the tour next year.

Merlier always getting dissed. At least as fast as Milan and more consistent over the season so far...

 

[ChewbaccaDefense]

How Cav moved up and positioned himself

That was a masterclass

Yeah, he was fighting to say on Philipsen's wheel with his shoulder. It was an old school sprint, won by the master.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

I don't think it makes sense because the hockey player will inevitably score points if set up by his teammates, assuming he plays for a good team. Especially if the team really is set up for that as the primary focus (which sounds lame but I know nothing of the NHL).

You definitely don't get a Tour win just by grinding up the number of stages you ride, nevermind how good a team you ride for.

I get the point that he has been picked up by Astana with the record in mind but it feels like an attempt to diminish his achievements (alluding to its inevitability).

Then again, I rarely think comparisons between ball sports and cycling make much sense.

Of course, because he still had to deliver the goods, so it's not a matter of just turning up. But then, apart from the gifted empty netters, Ovechkin still has to put the puck in the net. If it was just about turning up and marking time then I'd have been a lot more critical, and compared it to Keith Yandle's ironman streak or Adam Hansen's run of consecutive GTs, where it went from them being respected, revered hardmen who never missed a day, through to by the end of the run, it being all that they're known for. Yandle became a soft, fragile defender who would never make or take a hit for fear of losing the ironman streak, and got scratched in the playoffs (which didn't count for the streak) and traded to a team specifically because they promised they wouldn't drop him from the starting lineup until he broke the record. That to me was a disappointing damp squib of a record breaker that was hard to respect because the final year or two completely overshadowed how tough he had been to be in that position in the first place.

Cav winning is far from a damp squib and is impossible not to respect.

 

[Kaptain Kool]

IMHO the best comparison for Merckx is Pele. Old people would talk about how great he was even though the guy never even played a single Champions League match. OK, yes, they remember their grandparents telling them about how they read in the newspaper that he scored 4 goals against Sweden in the 1854 World Cup.
Glad that this TdF record now finally belongs to a real person and not some mythological guy from the last century.

 

[Ilmaestro99]

We still have farmers in the current peloton.

Marc Hirsfhi getting 4000 UCI points a year without ever being seen once in a televised race

 

[RedheadDane]

We still have farmers in the current peloton.

Indeed, one of them finished 4th.

Anyway, I think it's great Cavendish took the record, because what's the point in having records, if not so people can try to beat it?
Now we need someone to go for 36!

Okay, that has got to be the randomest spot for post-stage Tour studio:
Reedtz and Vinjebo... in the middle of a field!

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Shoot me, but Ovechkin is the better player, although I obviously admire Gretzky more. Parachute Ovechkin into Gretzky's context and he dominates like no one ever. Parachute Gretzky into Ovech... actually parachute him directly to an ICU.

So Cavendish made the grade? Meh. The last relic of Brailsford's little stunt.

Hey, if Mario had stayed healthy...

 

[tobydawq]

Surely Cav has had a lot of his teams set up solely to help him win?

I perfectly understood what @Libertine Seguros was trying to say with the example.

I also understand what she was saying, I just think it paints quite a negative picture.

Scoring a point in hockey is surely much, much easier than winning a Tour stage.

 

[Devil's Elbow]

Quick research tells me Jean Alavoine reached a 14-year range, so it definitely wasn't the record yet.

Okay, because I'm caught up in train cancellations and I'm bored:
16 - Cavendish
14 - Alavoine
13 - Bartali, Mottiat, Vietto
12 - (Armstrong), D Millar, Poulidor
11 - Darrigade, Van Impe, Karstens, Leducq, Thys
Cannot guarantee the list is complete from 12 and down, but Cav certainly has the record. For context, Pogacar would need to win a stage in 2036 to tie it.

 

[RobertCrawley]

I also understand what she was trying to say, I just think it paints quite a negative picture.

Scoring a point in hockey is surely much, much easier than winning a Tour stage.

Studies show that hockey is the major team sport that is most based on luck.

 

[Tim Cahill]

Philipsen might've just done an Antony Martial and checked out as soon as he signed that new contract

 

[Libertine Seguros]

IMHO the best comparison for Merckx is Pele. Old people would talk about how great he was even though the guy never even played a single Champions League match. OK, yes, they remember their grandparents telling them about how they read in the newspaper that he scored 4 goals against Sweden in the 1854 World Cup.
Glad that this TdF record now finally belongs to a real person and not some mythological guy from the last century.

Pele's goalscoring record also included exhibitions and tour matches because that was a lucrative business for the South American clubs at the time, and that is definitely analogous to Merckx adding all of his fixed crits and kermesses to his win record too.

However Pele could never have played in the European Cup or anything like that, because even when a transfer (I think it was to Inter) was agreed, politicians intervened and Pele was declared an official national treasure of Brazil so as to prevent his being able to be "exported".