Tour de France Tour de France 2024, Stage 5: Saint-Jean-de-Maurienne > Saint-Vulbas, 177.4 km

[tobydawq]

Sad day for those of us who like cyclists who well....actually race. I would wager Cavendish spent less time with his nose in the wind in his 35 wins than Merckx did in one of his victories.

I was doing some research as I couldn't figure out how the time cut on stage 1 was 50 minutes for a stage that didn't have anything above a Cat 2. I always knew about % of winning time, speed, distance etc but not the exact formula. So the Tour has a co-efficent for stage toughness to calculate time-cuts, 1-6 with 1 being an easy flat stage and 6 being the TTs or hard Mountain stages. So how do we think Merckx v Cav stacks up using the co-efficents.

As Cav himself once said(or something similar), he was really good at winning the piss poor easy stages. There is also an irony that some are saying Merckx had it easy, put Cav back pre sprint train era(90s) he would have won precious little. I simply will never rate a cyclist whose career consisted of sitting in the bunch all day and then sprinting at the finish.

For the record, the time cut on the infamous stage to Sestriere in 92 was about 55minutes, 5 more than stage 1 this year. The Sestriere stage was 50km longer, had twice as much climbing, came on the 13th stage and the climbing began from the start.

Nobody is claiming he is a bigger rider than Merckx. But he got the record whether or not you rate it.

By the way, 12 of Merckx' stage wins were ITT's at below 20 kms. Seven of those were shorter than 10 kms.

That's not particularly a counter-argument to you, just something I found out quite recently and which seems rather funny considering how people always talk about the current state of TTs in cycling.

 

[SHAD0W93]

Sad day for those of us who like cyclists who well....actually race. I would wager Cavendish spent less time with his nose in the wind in his 35 wins than Merckx did in one of his victories.

I was doing some research as I couldn't figure out how the time cut on stage 1 was 50 minutes for a stage that didn't have anything above a Cat 2. I always knew about % of winning time, speed, distance etc but not the exact formula. So the Tour has a co-efficent for stage toughness to calculate time-cuts, 1-6 with 1 being an easy flat stage and 6 being the TTs or hard Mountain stages. So how do we think Merckx v Cav stacks up using the co-efficents.

As Cav himself once said(or something similar), he was really good at winning the piss poor easy stages. There is also an irony that some are saying Merckx had it easy, put Cav back pre sprint train era(90s) he would have won precious little. I simply will never rate a cyclist whose career consisted of sitting in the bunch all day and then sprinting at the finish.

For the record, the time cut on the infamous stage to Sestriere in 92 was about 55minutes, 5 more than stage 1 this year. The Sestriere stage was 50km longer, had twice as much climbing, came on the 13th stage and the climbing began from the start.

Been waiting for this.

 

[pmcg76]

Yeah as long as your willing to accept that scoring 35 goals in the Belgium league is equivilant to scoring 34 in the Premier league.

 

[Berniece]

What a legend, well deserved

 

[Peyroteo94]

Sad day for those of us who like cyclists who well....actually race. I would wager Cavendish spent less time with his nose in the wind in his 35 wins than Merckx did in one of his victories.

I was doing some research as I couldn't figure out how the time cut on stage 1 was 50 minutes for a stage that didn't have anything above a Cat 2. I always knew about % of winning time, speed, distance etc but not the exact formula. So the Tour has a co-efficent for stage toughness to calculate time-cuts, 1-6 with 1 being an easy flat stage and 6 being the TTs or hard Mountain stages. So how do we think Merckx v Cav stacks up using the co-efficents.

As Cav himself once said(or something similar), he was really good at winning the piss poor easy stages. There is also an irony that some are saying Merckx had it easy, put Cav back pre sprint train era(90s) he would have won precious little. I simply will never rate a cyclist whose career consisted of sitting in the bunch all day and then sprinting at the finish.

For the record, the time cut on the infamous stage to Sestriere in 92 was about 55minutes, 5 more than stage 1 this year. The Sestriere stage was 50km longer, had twice as much climbing, came on the 13th stage and the climbing began from the start.

Cry me a river.

 

[Barnacle Bill]

The longevity is quite something - some sprinters finally have enough of dragging their heavy bodies of fast twitch muscles up and down mountains within the time cut, some lose their nerve after a serious crash and are never quite the same when things heat up at the end of a stage. Many fade away as their results don't earn them one of the limited spots on a top team. To keep doing that year after year, as fast young guys come and go, to still be in a GT and winning after 16 years is quite something.

I get that many prefer the skillset of a Pog or mvdp, or prefer watching thermonuclear attacks up monster climbs to a sprint (I love those too), but I personally also find much to admire in making those split second decisions at high speed after a long stage, to still have the killer instinct to go for the gap without thinking of all those crashes over the years, to perform when a team is depending on you.

Congrats Cav.

 

[pmcg76]

Cry me a river.

Truth hurts I guess.

 

[tobydawq]

Yeah as long as your willing to accept that scoring 35 goals in the Belgium league is equivilant to scoring 34 in the Premier league.

The Tour is the Tour.

 

[pmcg76]

The Tour is the Tour.

Yeah, but tell that to the TTers or climbers or roulers who don't get anywhere near the same amount of opportunities to win and they sure have to put in a lot more effort when they get a chance.

 

[Slavique Nuke]

I'm not upset about it. I'm just saying that that's how the Caps are playing at the moment, because at the position they are in their cycle, they aren't going to be winning a Cup any time soon, but Ovi chasing the record is a big storyline that people are invested in and it keeps them watching even when the team is struggling. Other elements of Ovi's game may be deteriorating with age but he's still a great goalscorer. It's more about the fact that somebody who is the greatest in one discipline is chasing the record of somebody who is perceived as the greatest of all - which I feel is comparable to Cav - now hard to argue against his being the greatest ever sprinter - breaking a record previously held by Merckx, perceived as the greatest of all.

Dude, he had his worst season last year and still scored 31 goals and 65 points in 79 games. He was the team's top scorer and had the best points per game average. Most players don't dream of a 30-goal season, and for him it was the worst. He even managed to drag the awful Capitals into the playoffs.

So, it's nowhere near comparable to an entire Astana team TTTing to get Cav OTL inside.

Yeah he is nearly 39 years old and far from the top but close to a record, but what is he supposed to do? Quit hockey and forgo his salary because it annoys you?

 

[Red Lobster]

Sad day for those of us who like cyclists who well....actually race.

"actually race" ... that's funny. what's more primally "racing" than a full-on field sprint?

 

[Izzyeviel]

Yeah as long as your willing to accept that scoring 35 goals in the Belgium league is equivilant to scoring 34 in the Premier league.

well its more like comparing the dude who scored 35 goals in the 2024 premier league compared with some dude who scored 34 in the 1970 Spanish league.

 

[gunara]

Yeah as long as your willing to accept that scoring 35 goals in the Belgium league is equivilant to scoring 34 in the Premier league.

I don't know if anyone ever scored that many goals in Belgian league, but people like Jan Koller, Lukaku, or Perisic are not really worse than Kevin Phillips or Dion Dublin.

I don't know why I bring them up, but all these comparisons have been pointless even without this

 

[tobydawq]

Yeah, but tell that to the TTers or climbers or roulers who don't get anywhere near the same amount of opportunities to win and they sure have to put in a lot more effort when they get a chance.

I just said that Merckx won 12 short TTs. In total, he won 16.

In his seven years at the top, there were 25 ITTs in the Tour.

He had nothing to complain about.

Hinault won 20 TTs in the Tour.

I also think bunch sprint wins are less impressive but Cavendish has the record regardless. That really isn't a subject of discussion.

 

[proffate]

Sad day for those of us who like cyclists who well....actually race. I would wager Cavendish spent less time with his nose in the wind in his 35 wins than Merckx did in one of his victories.

I was doing some research as I couldn't figure out how the time cut on stage 1 was 50 minutes for a stage that didn't have anything above a Cat 2. I always knew about % of winning time, speed, distance etc but not the exact formula. So the Tour has a co-efficent for stage toughness to calculate time-cuts, 1-6 with 1 being an easy flat stage and 6 being the TTs or hard Mountain stages. So how do we think Merckx v Cav stacks up using the co-efficents.

As Cav himself once said(or something similar), he was really good at winning the piss poor easy stages. There is also an irony that some are saying Merckx had it easy, put Cav back pre sprint train era(90s) he would have won precious little. I simply will never rate a cyclist whose career consisted of sitting in the bunch all day and then sprinting at the finish.

For the record, the time cut on the infamous stage to Sestriere in 92 was about 55minutes, 5 more than stage 1 this year. The Sestriere stage was 50km longer, had twice as much climbing, came on the 13th stage and the climbing began from the start.

First of all, today Cav showed world-beating wheel surfing skills. His leadout train was gone in the last km. I would say he's one of the least dependent on a train ever, but obv every sprinter does better with one than without. In a world where no one has a train, Cav is winning 4 stages per tour. (Except when he's got that viral whatever.)

Second, to me, "racing" means "steering". Do F1 cars race themselves? No, the drivers race. Vingegaard doesn't win by "racing" but by having the biggest engine. So what Cav does is a lot more "racing" than your average TDF stage winner.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Dude, he had his worst season last year and still scored 31 goals and 65 points in 79 games. He was the team's top scorer and had the best points per game average. Most players don't dream of a 30-goal season, and for him it was the worst. He even managed to drag the awful Capitals into the playoffs.

So, it's nowhere near comparable to an entire Astana team TTTing to get Cav OTL inside.

Yeah he is nearly 39 years old and far from the top but close to a record, but what is he supposed to do? Quit hockey and forgo his salary because it annoys you?

I didn't say it annoyed me. I just said the way they've arranged things has made it clear the team's main goal (pardon the pun) at the moment is based around getting Ovi that record. It's not like the Keith Yandle ironman streak I mentioned. Ovi started out last season looking like he was totally cooked and the chances of him getting to the record were fading fast, then he went on a heater later on that showed he still had it and that reignited some excitement for it again.

I'm just saying, it feels on the surface like the record ought to be Gretzky's because of his stature within the sport, his points-scoring record above and beyond that, his accolades and so on - so it will feel weird when it is no longer his, but it's hard not to admire the longevity and dedication that has gone into breaking that record.

And the same goes for Cav breaking Merckx's record. It feels like the record ought to belong to Merckx because of his stature, and the amount of other achievements he has that Cav could never dream of replicating, but it's impossible not to admire the bloody-mindedness that has kept Cav coming back.

 

[proffate]

Cavendish goes all the way from one barrier to the other.

actually, pretty incredibly, he checked over his left shoulder before moving left.

Most dangerous move award goes to Jasper Disaster who dove across the road far more erratically, without looking, and coming closer to chopping others (Gaviria). Ironically JP might have won if he just went straight, since he was a bike length off and the road is more than a bike length wide.

 

[Cookster15]

Wow, this is amazing. I don't care that sprinters have many more opportunities to win stages. This is amazing if for nothing else that he could come back to do it after all the setbacks he has had and that so many wrote him off. Also congrats to Vino's team who had the courage to take a risk in signing him in January last year. Glad its paid off. I hope he can make it to Nice?

 

[jaylew]

Throughout his long career, I don't remember feeling happy for his win. But today I think I am, for whatever reason.

Same. I don't think I've cheered for a single Cavendish win ever and wasn't even wanting him to break the record but I found myself smiling and being happy for him. Honestly, I really didn't think he had it in him. I thought the field had passed him by and coming back for another go was a waste of time and resources but I was obviously wrong. Ultimately, I'm glad he came back as this is a much more fitting end for him than crashing out would have been. This is certainly my favorite Cav. I was not a fan of Cocky Cav, Angry Cav, or Depressed Cav but Oddball Cav I find really interesting.

And congrats to SHADOW93, the most persistent, longtime, vocal Cav supporter on this forum. Have a beer, you earned it too!

 

[ChewbaccaDefense]

Cavendish goes all the way from one barrier to the other.

With enough speed to not impede anyone. Master Class.

 

[pmcg76]

First of all, today Cav showed world-beating wheel surfing skills. His leadout train was gone in the last km. I would say he's one of the least dependent on a train ever, but obv every sprinter does better with one than without. In a world where no one has a train, Cav is winning 4 stages per tour. (Except when he's got that viral whatever.)

Second, to me, "racing" means "steering". Do F1 cars race themselves? No, the drivers race. Vingegaard doesn't win by "racing" but by having the biggest engine. So what Cav does is a lot more "racing" than your average TDF stage winner.

How can you win 4 sprints if there isn't even 4 stages up for grabs? First few Tours I followed, there was 2-3 sprint stages per Tour. 1987, there was 25 stages, 4 bunch sprints. Its not just about the sprint trains, but the teams who chase everything down to create the sprint, they are the people doing the racing. Hiding in the bunch is not proper racing.

 

[proffate]

How can you win 4 sprints if there isn't even 4 stages up for grabs? First few Tours I followed, there was 2-3 sprint stages per Tour. 1987, there was 25 stages, 4 bunch sprints. Its not just about the sprint trains, but the teams who chase everything down to create the sprint, they are the people doing the racing. Hiding in the bunch is not proper racing.

“Racing is licking your opponent’s plate clean before starting on your own.”

 

[tobydawq]

Same. I don't think I've cheered for a single Cavendish win ever and wasn't even wanting him to break the record but I found myself smiling and being happy for him. Honestly, I really didn't think he had it in him. I thought the field had passed him by and coming back for another go was a waste of time and resources but I was obviously wrong. Ultimately, I'm glad he came back as this is a much more fitting end for him than crashing out would have been. This is certainly my favorite Cav. I was not a fan of Cocky Cav, Angry Cav, or Depressed Cav but Oddball Cav I find really interesting.

And congrats to SHADOW93, the most persistent, longtime, vocal Cav supporter on this forum. Have a beer, you earned it too!

I feel the same. I even remember being relieved he didn't get the record in Paris back in 2021. I already got sick of him again when he won four stages. Then three years later, I have to admit I was shaking after he got the job done.

 

[red_flanders]

Big congrats to Cav! Good dude, glad to see him get it. Good for the sport. That was one heck of a sprint, he legit curb-stomped the field. Amazing.

IMHO the best comparison for Merckx is Pele. Old people would talk about how great he was even though the guy never even played a single Champions League match. OK, yes, they remember their grandparents telling them about how they read in the newspaper that he scored 4 goals against Sweden in the 1854 World Cup.
Glad that this TdF record now finally belongs to a real person and not some mythological guy from the last century.

Any comparison to Merckx's record in this context is simply an announcement one doesn't know what the hell they're talking about. There is no comparison between the two efforts. I'd err on the side of shutting one's yap and enjoying the win.

 

[Brullnux]

Sad day for those of us who like cyclists who well....actually race. I would wager Cavendish spent less time with his nose in the wind in his 35 wins than Merckx did in one of his victories.

I was doing some research as I couldn't figure out how the time cut on stage 1 was 50 minutes for a stage that didn't have anything above a Cat 2. I always knew about % of winning time, speed, distance etc but not the exact formula. So the Tour has a co-efficent for stage toughness to calculate time-cuts, 1-6 with 1 being an easy flat stage and 6 being the TTs or hard Mountain stages. So how do we think Merckx v Cav stacks up using the co-efficents.

As Cav himself once said(or something similar), he was really good at winning the piss poor easy stages. There is also an irony that some are saying Merckx had it easy, put Cav back pre sprint train era(90s) he would have won precious little. I simply will never rate a cyclist whose career consisted of sitting in the bunch all day and then sprinting at the finish.

For the record, the time cut on the infamous stage to Sestriere in 92 was about 55minutes, 5 more than stage 1 this year. The Sestriere stage was 50km longer, had twice as much climbing, came on the 13th stage and the climbing began from the start.

Records that span different eras are affected by changes in these different eras. Big deal. I doubt Merckx particularly cares about it anyway given he has like a gazillion other records, and all it does is give a little title to Cavendish as one of the greatest sprinters in modern cycling.