Tour de France Tour de France 2024, Stage 5: Saint-Jean-de-Maurienne > Saint-Vulbas, 177.4 km

[Izzyeviel]

DECISION DU JURY DES COMMISSAIRES N°5

Article 2.12.007-5.1 :
Deviation from the chosen line that obstructs or endangers another rider or irregular sprint (including pulling the jersey or saddle of another rider, intimidation or threat, blow from the head, knee, elbow, shoulder, hand,etc.)
(63) BAUHAUS Phil - BAHRAIN VICTORIOUS - 10008662484 Amende de 500CHF - 13 Points au classement par points

Article 2.12.007-8.6 :
Unseemly inappropriate behaviour at the finish and damage to the image of sport
(124) DRIZNERS Jarrad Eriks - LOTTO DSTNY - 10011146900(192) BALLERINI Davide - ASTANA QAZAQSTAN TEAM - 10008661777Amende de 200CHF chacun. Fine of 200CHF for both riders

 

[RedheadDane]

Cavendish goes all the way from one barrier to the other.

I only noticed Philipsen doing that.
And of course the only videos I could find on tv2.dk was a highlight video, and one were they zoomed in on Pedersen crashing.
Not any were they just... showed the sprint.

 

[pmcg76]

Records that span different eras are affected by changes in these different eras. Big deal. I doubt Merckx particularly cares about it anyway given he has like a gazillion other records, and all it does is give a little title to Cavendish as one of the greatest sprinters in modern cycling.

No issue with him being described as one of the greatest sprinter of the modern era. It is the belief that holding this record makes him one of the greatest cyclists of all time, which was happening before this. As I said TTers or Mountain goats do not get the same opportunities to win. Are they less worthy of being described as all time greats?

 

[Netserk]

The fact that merckx was more versatile means he had more chances to win. Cav only had one type of stage he could win, so he had to be mega dominant on that terrain. If it were so easy for sprinters he wouldn't be the only one to top Merckx.

Pogi, Indurain, Sagan, Zabel, Cipollini & McEwen have all won 12 Tour stages.

Is that tally most impressive for Cipollini and McEwen, given that they were the least versatile of those riders? Least impressive for Pogi as he can win in so many different ways?

 

[Cookster15]

Sad day for those of us who like cyclists who well....actually race. I would wager Cavendish spent less time with his nose in the wind in his 35 wins than Merckx did in one of his victories.

Speak for yourself. I've raced quite a bit, was not a sprinter and think this is great. There are no prizes for riders who put their 'nose in the wind' and never win. That just shows you don't have any strengths and don't know how to race to conserve your energy. Do you think Astana feel like its a sad day?

But I find your comment very strange. If you've raced much you would understand the difference between sprinters, roulers and climbers.

And is Cav worse than Ale-Jet who in 2003 was being nursed over climbs to then win sprints?

 

[Valv.Piti]

I didn't really felt anything until Alexandre Vinokourov showed up on my screen, and then I also got really happy because Vino got really happy. No joke.

 

[Barnacle Bill]

As I said TTers or Mountain goats do not get the same opportunities to win. Are they less worthy of being described as all time greats?

On the other hand, TTers and Mountain goats get to win GTs... which also gets them described as greats

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

"You're my heart, you're my soul....." do you know this one?

I do.

 

[Cookster15]

It is the belief that holding this record makes him one of the greatest cyclists of all time

Who was saying that? Surely only the British who are prone to nationalistic hype?

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Good news everyone! Merckx has announced his comeback!

 

[titan31]

I only noticed Philipsen doing that.
And of course the only videos I could find on tv2.dk was a highlight video, and one were they zoomed in on Pedersen crashing.
Not any were they just... showed the sprint.

Cav goes across first and Philipsen follows him (Philipsen would probably have been better off not doing that and sprinting from behind Ackermann).

Both of them though did not cut anyone off as they're far enough ahead of Van den Berg and Kristoff when they do so. They're also miles ahead of Pedersen who is more caught as De Lie moves across (he goes across half the road), then Bennett gets squeezed and Pedersen goes down behind him

 

[mountainroad]

Virtually nobody who knows anything about cycling dismisses Merckx as the GOAT. Likewise, anyone who knows anything about cycling understands that Merckx and Cavendish represent two different skillsets. When I see people calling Cav the GOAT, I understand that to mean he is the GOAT at what he does: fieldsprinting and winning the maximum number of stage-race stages within the stage-race format of his era.

What Merckx accomplished was unprecedented and continues to be unmatched. Likewise, what Cavendish has done is also unprecedented. People were already calling Cav the greatest sprinter of all time 14 years ago.

Cavendish has defeated three generations of sprinters. He put away the Zabel/Freire generation, trudged through and outlasted the Kittel/Greipel/Sagan generation, and continues to defeat the Phillipsen/Merlier generation. He has done this while being counted out over and over again. People act like field sprinting is basically being the first over the line at the end of a group ride. The number of riders who have even competed in as many tours as Cav is very small. For me, the thought of even finishing the stage, much less continuing the Tour (and winning stages!) after the kind of misery he endured in stage 1 is unthinkable. Winning a field sprint requires getting to the end of a stage, navigating absolute chaos, and having the speed, tactics, intuition, and bravery to get across the line first. Today's win was a really good one too.

I don't understand diminishing the accomplishment, especially since I don't think very many people are arguing that Cavendish is "better" than Merckx.

 

[Brullnux]

No issue with him being described as one of the greatest sprinter of the modern era. It is the belief that holding this record makes him one of the greatest cyclists of all time, which was happening before this. As I said TTers or Mountain goats do not get the same opportunities to win. Are they less worthy of being described as all time greats?

Great TTers are always described as all time greats; great climbers win GTs.

Just by virtue of being one of the greatest sprinters of the modern era, he is also an all time great. Cycling has different riders with different characteristics, Cav is one.

 

[Slavique Nuke]

I didn't say it annoyed me. I just said the way they've arranged things has made it clear the team's main goal (pardon the pun) at the moment is based around getting Ovi that record. It's not like the Keith Yandle ironman streak I mentioned. Ovi started out last season looking like he was totally cooked and the chances of him getting to the record were fading fast, then he went on a heater later on that showed he still had it and that reignited some excitement for it again.

I'm just saying, it feels on the surface like the record ought to be Gretzky's because of his stature within the sport, his points-scoring record above and beyond that, his accolades and so on - so it will feel weird when it is no longer his, but it's hard not to admire the longevity and dedication that has gone into breaking that record.

And the same goes for Cav breaking Merckx's record. It feels like the record ought to belong to Merckx because of his stature, and the amount of other achievements he has that Cav could never dream of replicating, but it's impossible not to admire the bloody-mindedness that has kept Cav coming back.

I still don't understand what point you are trying to prove. Especially the Ovy and Cav comparison. Ovy doesn't go to the friendly dictator with a rolling contract to see if he can get some kind of record. He's playing for the team that drafted him, where he's the franchise's greatest legend, and he's on a contract he signed in 2021 with two years left on it & the record will probably be broken in that time.

Btw, I'm not entirely sure how all those bad hockey players who played for the Capitals last year helped improve Ovy's goal scoring record. There wasn't really any quality there... He'll break that record because he's the greatest goalscorer ever, not because a team sacrificed everything to get it.

 

[titan31]

Virtually nobody who knows anything about cycling dismisses Merckx as the GOAT. Likewise, anyone who knows anything about cycling understands that Merckx and Cavendish represent two different skillsets. When I see people calling Cav the GOAT, I understand that to mean he is the GOAT at what he does: fieldsprinting and winning the maximum number of stage-race stages within the stage-race format of his era.

What Merckx accomplished was unprecedented and continues to be unmatched. Likewise, what Cavendish has done is also unprecedented. People were already calling Cav the greatest sprinter of all time 14 years ago.

Cavendish has defeated three generations of sprinters. He put away the Zabel/Freire generation, trudged through and outlasted the Kittel/Greipel/Sagan generation, and continues to defeat the Phillipsen/Merlier generation. He has done this while being counted out over and over again. People act like field sprinting is basically being the first over the line at the end of a group ride. The number of riders who have even competed in as many tours as Cav is very small. For me, the thought of even finishing the stage, much less continuing the Tour (and winning stages!) after the kind of misery he endured in stage 1 is unthinkable. Winning a field sprint requires getting to the end of a stage, navigating absolute chaos, and having the speed, tactics, intuition, and bravery to get across the line first. Today's win was a really good one too.

I don't understand diminishing the accomplishment, especially since I don't think very many people are arguing that Cavendish is "better" than Merckx.

Think it's a bit far to say he continues to beat the Philipsen and Merlier generation. He's won one stage today against Philipsen and I don't think he's won a stage with Merlier there since 2021. He's shown really little form generally in the last 2/3 years to say that.

 

[Izzyeviel]

Medical bulletin. Sounds pretty serious for Fred & Mads. Do we know anymore?

Fall at Km 145:
(205) KRISTOFF Alexander – UXT
Multiple erosions.
Fall at Km 123:
(68) WRIGHT Fred – TBV
Trauma to the right wrist.
Fall 25 km from the finish:
(5) LAPORTE Christophe – TVL
Right shoulder blade bruises.
Fall on arrival:
(45) PEDERSEN Mads – LTK
Trauma to the left scapula

 

[RedheadDane]

Nothing broken for Pedersen.
They'll decide tomorrow if he can ride.

This race has not been great for Pedersens...

 

[SHAD0W93]

Think it's a bit far to say he continues to beat the Philipsen and Merlier generation. He's won one stage today against Philipsen and I don't think he's won a stage with Merlier there since 2021. He's shown really little form generally in the last 2/3 years to say that.

Cav’s beat Philipsen 10 or more times and has beat Merlier around 3-5 times. Not to mention all the other sprinters in this generation, on top of the; Groenewegen, Gaviria, Ewan, Viviani, etc. era.

 

[Amazinmets87]

The longevity is quite something - some sprinters finally have enough of dragging their heavy bodies of fast twitch muscles up and down mountains within the time cut, some lose their nerve after a serious crash and are never quite the same when things heat up at the end of a stage. Many fade away as their results don't earn them one of the limited spots on a top team. To keep doing that year after year, as fast young guys come and go, to still be in a GT and winning after 16 years is quite something.

I get that many prefer the skillset of a Pog or mvdp, or prefer watching thermonuclear attacks up monster climbs to a sprint (I love those too), but I personally also find much to admire in making those split second decisions at high speed after a long stage, to still have the killer instinct to go for the gap without thinking of all those crashes over the years, to perform when a team is depending on you.

Congrats Cav.

I've always assumed GT sprinters were primarily slow-twitch, or at minimum intermediate.

 

[Danskebjerge]

There was something prophetic about Mads Pedersen’s reaction yesterday to his team’s botched lead-out. He was frustrated and described it as some kind of disaster which made me think that hey, worse things can happen. And the fact that the leaders of the sprinter team talk that way about lead-outs having to be inch-perfect, isn’t that what ultimately causes the crashes because there is so much at stake for so many of the riders?

Mads Pedersen didn’t seem to do anything wrong in today’s sprint, but the uncompromising approach to sprinting that he represents will inevitably increase the risk of crashes.

 

[titan31]

Cav’s beat Philipsen 10 or more times and has beat Merlier around 3-5 times. Not to mention all the other sprinters in this generation, on top of the; Groenewegen, Gaviria, Ewan, Viviani, etc. era.

From what I can see since start of 2022 season, he's won 2 races that had Philipsen (today and stage 2 UAE 2022) and has won nothing that has Merlier in it.

Basically going back to the 2021 Tour where Alpecin messed up by bringing both Merlier and Philipsen and Morkov was delivering Cav to the stage wins

 

[Libertine Seguros]

I still don't understand what point you are trying to prove. Especially the Ovy and Cav comparison. Ovy doesn't go to the friendly dictator with a rolling contract to see if he can get some kind of record. He's playing for the team that drafted him, where he's the franchise's greatest legend, and he's on a contract he signed in 2021 with two years left on it & the record will probably be broken in that time.

Btw, I'm not entirely sure how all those bad hockey players who played for the Capitals last year helped improve Ovy's goal scoring record. There wasn't really any quality there... He'll break that record because he's the greatest goalscorer ever, not because a team sacrificed everything to get it.

They're both old guys who could easily retire at any point and still be legends but are driven by pursuit of a record they would be taking from the greatest to ever compete, many opinions are split on how much they want those records to be broken, but they're still compelling storylines and even those who don't want the records broken have to admire the longevity and dedication that breaking those records takes, and despite their age they're still good enough for it to be legit if they do break it (as opposed to the Keith Yandle ironman charity case).

I'm not sure I'd be raising the 'Cav sidled up to a friendly dictator' point in defence of the guy that literally founded PutinTeam, but that's irrelevant to the topic at hand.

 

[SHAD0W93]

From what I can see since start of 2022 season, he's won 2 races that had Philipsen (today and stage 2 UAE 2022) and has won nothing that has Merlier in it.

Basically going back to the 2021 Tour where Alpecin messed up by bringing both Merlier and Philipsen and Morkov was delivering Cav to the stage wins

So 2021 just doesn’t exist?

 

[titan31]

So 2021 just doesn’t exist?

It does but neither Merlier or Philipsen were the same sprinter. Philipsen was only like 23 and really hadn't come into his own yet. It's why I think it's a bit much to be saying he continues to defeat this generation when he hasn't with Merlier in a while, and he's got 1 win since early 2022 against Philipsen.

 

[Strawberry_Jams]

the real contest here.. the battle of the energy drinks

Monster 1 Red Bull 0