Tour de France Tour de France 2025, Stage 18: Vif - Courchevel Col de La Loze(171.5k)

[D. Pecher]

On a stage? For some camera time?

No.

A podium for the team and the rider means a whole lot more because of what you just said!

They screwed up and just have to hope Lipo is up for it tomorrow.

Nope, sponsors measure their ROI on expose in minutes, which is why - rather disgustingly - it is actually a good thing for them if a rider crashes, because that usually means the cameras are on it for quite some time. RBH's Ralph Denk actually said as much in an interview shortly after they signed Red Bull as a sponsor.

 

[Salvarani]

Nope, sponsors measure their ROI on expose in minutes, which is why - rather disgustingly - it is actually a good thing for them if a rider crashes, because that usually means the cameras are on it for quite some time. RBH's Ralph Denk actually said as much in an interview shortly after they signed Red Bull as a sponsor.

No, just have no words.

We disagree.

 

[staubsauger]

Nope, sponsors measure their ROI on expose in minutes, which is why - rather disgustingly - it is actually a good thing for them if a rider crashes, because that usually means the cameras are on it for quite some time. RBH's Ralph Denk actually said as much in an interview shortly after they signed Red Bull as a sponsor.

Denk is incompetent and should be fired after the Tour de France unless Red Bull somehow saves the podium spot.

 

[D. Pecher]

No, just have no words.

We disagree.

I'm just quoting what the actual owner of RBH said in an interview about a year ago.

Third might be interesting for us as fans, but by next Monday hardly any paper will give much attention to who came third or won the white jersey. Pogacar will be all over the news. Those about 30+ minutes with Lipo being the sole focus of the camera will be much more valuable to the sponsors.

It might be of no interest to us, but if you want your sponsor to cough up some millions to pay Evenepoels salary for next year, that might be more valuable that 5 minutes on the podium in Paris. Them's the rules in the corporate world.

 

[Rou]

So after all the Queen Stage was Hautacam with the monster gaps.
The stage today and Superbagneres had meme gaps.

 

[D. Pecher]

Denk is incompetent and should be fired after the Tour de France unless Red Bull somehow saves the podium spot.

Denk is the owner. The tactic is decided by Bernhard Eisel and/or Rolf Aldag.

 

[Salvarani]

I'm just quoting what the actual owner of RBH said in an interview about a year ago.

Third might be interesting for us as fans, but by next Monday hardly any paper will give much attention to who came third or won the white jersey. Pogacar will be all over the news. Those about 30+ minutes with Lipo being the sole focus of the camera will be much more valuable to the sponsors.

It might be of no interest to us, but if you want your sponsor to cough up some millions to pay Evenepoels salary for next year, that might be more valuable that 5 minutes on the podium in Paris. Them's the rules in the corporate world.

Nobody will remember the few minutes that he got today.

Like what are you talking about?

3rd in the TdF is a huge result for the rider and the team. It brings exposure for the team and means a whole lot more. To have a rider on the podium in Paris.

We are not gonna agree on this and I disagree with all of your points. Nor do I trust you at all. So continuing the discussion is now pretty pointless.

 

[houtdffan]

Denk is the owner. The tactic is decided by Bernhard Eisel and/or Rolf Aldag.

Didn't Red Bull buy the majority of the team?

 

[Danskebjerge]

Nope, sponsors measure their ROI on expose in minutes, which is why - rather disgustingly - it is actually a good thing for them if a rider crashes, because that usually means the cameras are on it for quite some time. RBH's Ralph Denk actually said as much in an interview shortly after they signed Red Bull as a sponsor.

That's to some extent what I thought too. But then we had last year where many stages were marred by the lack of breakaways. The explanation was that the teams were not interested in exposure as in the old days - they wanted results.

 

[Danskebjerge]

a few Swiss francs and time on GC

As it turned out: 8 points in the mountains classification.

 

[SHAD0W93]

A guy who never ever gets over a loss isn't a very likable guy.

It’s our loses that define and drive those at the top of their profession.

 

[Red Rick]

For anyone wondering why guys just didn't attack more.

Onley did 5.5 W/kg for the final 14 minutes and he didn't get dropped until 600m to go

 

[Salvarani]

A guy who never ever gets over a loss isn't a very likable guy.

It is inspiring to see someone taking a loss with grace, to see it motivate them to become better and win.

You fail, but you only learn from it.

Thats a great mentality and something to admire.

 

[Samu Cuenca]

Jegat vs O'Connor

O'Connor definitely won that duel. Meanwhile Vingegaard ended up looking like Hulk Hogan in the final (too soon?).

 

[Salvarani]

It’s our loses that define and drive those at the top of their profession.

Losing, but setting new targets and achieving them... thats powerful and greatness personified.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

That's to some extent what I thought too. But then we had last year where many stages were marred by the lack of breakaways. The explanation was that the teams were not interested in exposure as in the old days - they wanted results.

The problem is that the teams are interested in the exposure, but the means of it is different.

Back in the day, you got those breakaways because the team's sponsors were interested in the TV time as their exposure, and by animating the race and making those attacks, the team curried favour with the race organisers that would help them get future invites as a thank you for providing spectacle in the race.

Nowadays, almost all of the invites are guaranteed as long as a team scores a fixed number of points, and mediocre finishing placements are therefore valued far higher to teams than television hours. The sponsors will say that they want the visibility, but the crucial thing is that racing boring and accumulating placements does give you the visibility: by guaranteeing your presence in the most important races.

For obvious top teams like UAE, Visma, Red Bull, Soudal etc. that's not really an issue, but the fact that accumulating those placements guarantees the invites rather than being at the mercy of the organisers (when the organisers only have two teams to invite at their discretion rather than the six or so of a couple of decades ago) means that we're seeing the kinds of teams that used to provide that TV time action - the equivalents of today's Cofidis, Arkéa and IPT - placing greater value in protecting placements and sprinting out minor places because it reduces TV time today for a guarantor of potential TV time tomorrow. Meaning that we're often seeing those teams doing things like bringing in sprinters who they know full well are unlikely to even come close to winning a stage, but can at least consistently come 7th in the flat stages, because while it's less glamorous and offers little in the short-term, it's more valuable long-term than a few days in polka dots or combativity prizes on any day where the péloton actually wants to chase the break.

 

[benzwire]

I don't find Pog scary at all. Vingegaard meanwhile... did you see those glasses? + the nose thing he wears? The man looks dangerous in all the wrong ways.

Jonas needs this hat:

 

[Tim Cahill]

O'Connor definitely won that duel. Meanwhile Vingegaard ended up looking like Hulk Hogan in the final (too soon?).

I wanted to make an Hogan-based gag but he could just be working an angle, ready to make the best comeback since Nibali at the 2016 Giro, making fools of us all, so I’m holding off.

 

[noob]

It’s our loses that define and drive those at the top of their profession.

It is inspiring to see someone taking a loss with grace, to see it motivate them to become better and win.

You fail, but you only learn from it.

Thats a great mentality and something to admire.

It's commendable only to a point..

A guy who never ever gets over a loss isn't a very likable guy.

My point was "never ever". The history is full of (mostly) men who didn't realise they were already on the top so constantly tried to prove it to themselves. It rarely ends well.

 

[staubsauger]

Denk is the owner. The tactic is decided by Bernhard Eisel and/or Rolf Aldag.

Didn't Red Bull buy the ownership?

With someone like Eisel as sports director it's no wonder what happened today. Lippowitz day was already saved when the favorites sat up up. Him & Roglic should have ridden tempo and kept the gap towards Onley. Instead Lippowitz gets nervous and over ambitious. Attacks and wastes his energy. Without Eisel preventing him.

Aldags expertise outside of sprinting has been proven in the 2006 Tour de France already.

Aldag & Eisel are a miscast as sporting leadership IMHO

 

[SHAD0W93]

O'Connor definitely won that duel. Meanwhile Vingegaard ended up looking like Hulk Hogan in the final (too soon?).

Vingegaard at the start tomorrow.

View: https://youtu.be/iL1XEPJL4ps?si=pi-fv9lH9XRvKtwo

 

[D. Pecher]

Didn't Red Bull buy the majority of the team?

They did, as they do with all teams they invest in. It's 51% RB, 49% Denk, but Denk is running it.

 

[Brullnux]

Just watched the German speaking interview. Lipo said that he caught up to the MJ group and everyone just sat up and looked at each other, so he decided to give it a go. But 10k from home he felt the energy wasn't there anymore. Gutsy move, probably the recklessness of youth, but at least he did something other than just soft-pedalling through the valley at a snail's pace, which unfortunately paid off for some.

I agree re Lipowitz, I loved his effort, but think it's harsh on Onley who did what you would reasonably expect from him. He's young, has never been in this position, and has never performed at this level on long climbs before. It makes sense that he's being conservative and taking it day by day, especially given Picnic's UCI ranking issues.

 

[Gobbo]

I am a bit disappointed about this stage. Vingegaard had promised that he would go all out for the victory, but instead he was totally passive on the last climb and only attacked about 1 km. from the finish line. Too late to make any difference. I have the feeling that he didn´t really believe that he could make enough difference on Pogi, so instead he chose a pretty conservative ride and focused more on mantaining the second place than to gain time on Pogi.

Pogi also didn´t go all out for the stage victory. I had expected that he would try to win the stage, but probably he thought that it was Jonas´responsability to attack and I think he was right about THAT. It was up to Jonas, not up to Tadej to attack..

Vingegaard tried to use his team mates, but they were just not strong and fast enough to make a pace that would seriously challenge Pogacar. Yates tried to pull for several kilometers, but his pace was far too slow. So in my opinion Jonas should have tried to go SOLO much earlier. But maybe he just didn´t have the legs to do so. But he did say that he felt very strong today, so therefore I wonder why he didn´t try to go solo 5-6 km. from the finish line to go at least for the stage win.

On the other hand I am happy for O´Connor. He deserved the victory and for him it was an epic win.

 

[scribers]

I thought this was a great race and will be a reference for quite some time. Very unique and exciting way to race.