- Apr 30, 2011
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You cannot climb Domancy like that and connect to Amerands. And Romme would have to be from the "wrong" side.
- Sep 20, 2017
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You beat me to it by a few seconds!
Of course. But either way it would be some flat between Romme and Sallanches. The point would be to add climbs before Sallanches and the three finish climbs.
Remco would be second in a 2012 route. That 3 ish minute gap between Remco and Vingo would be gone. Vingo wouldn't drop Remco on Touissuire and Remco would take minutes in the 2 proper length TTs
- Jul 8, 2017
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Wait, are we saying that Vingegaard was 100% last year then?
I'd say no, so the gap is more like 5 minutes.
And even if we count it as 3, I would say 2 minutes per TT is a bit of a stretch (unless Vingegaard has an off day as in TDF) and it would be bad for Evenepoel to be honest.
It would make Vingegaard attack (hard on Grand Colombier and even Croix de Fer. He is dropping Evenepoel there and Evenepoel isn't coming back.
Ironically, it could work for Evenepoel if he only gains a minute on the first TT. One of them situations where more is actually less.
Remco was also severely injured the same crash vingo was. Both werent at top shape
- Apr 30, 2011
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Okay then, as you base your point on Evenepoel's performance in 2024, it's only fair if we use Vingegaard's as well. If Evenepoel only gained 37 seconds in 28(?)km, what makes you think he would gain 2 minutes in 41?
I'm still saying that less is actually good for Remco, but I think you kinda overrate the gap between Pog/Ving and Evenepoel in a GT TT.
P.s. Vingegaard was more severely injured. I think that's out of question.
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Aside from the first hairpin, it's way wider than something like Pramartino. Also no major drops for anyone to crash into.
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- Mar 20, 2022
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I think he is actually quite right.
Because if Vingegaard indeed loses 2 minutes in the TT, he is dropping Evenepoel on Croix de Fer already.
It's interesting the 2012 route is not remembered fondly but partially because of the way it was raced and the protagonists.
As for how it would pan out raced with the modern riders conjecture- which Vigno/Remco do we get. Vigno 2023 does not lose anywhere near the time Vigno 2025 does in the TTs but will we ever see that Vigno again post his 2024 crash.
Also the parcours would be raced differently - the stage after planche belle filles would be raced super aggressively now as would grand Colombiere. La Troussiere is not in itself a tough MTF but when raced hard as a stage it is plenty tough enough for some decent gaps.
As for how it would pan out raced with the modern riders conjecture- which Vigno/Remco do we get. Vigno 2023 does not lose anywhere near the time Vigno 2025 does in the TTs but will we ever see that Vigno again post his 2024 crash.
Also the parcours would be raced differently - the stage after planche belle filles would be raced super aggressively now as would grand Colombiere. La Troussiere is not in itself a tough MTF but when raced hard as a stage it is plenty tough enough for some decent gaps.
He couldn't drop him on Isola. touissuire is a very similar type of climb. A pure diesel climb
2012 would be a true Tour de France today
2 long flat ITTS with 3 really hard mountain stages. Plus, the two days in the Jura would have been raced flat out
Yes, we would have had the 1 Paycheux special we would all howl about, but I'd rather have 1 or 2 of those and bring back real TTs and mountain stages
He also didn't try to drop him that day because he wasn't feeling great if I remember right. Every time Jonas was feeling good and tried to drop Remco, he did
- Jul 8, 2017
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Isola 2000 is actually harder than Couillole.
And Vingegaard dropped him.on Couillole, proper dieses climb if I remember correctly?So Vingegaard drops Evenepoel on diesel climbs as well.
Also, I don't know why you keep insisting on La Toussuire? If Vingegaard is a minute behind Evenepoel before that stage with a rather shallow Pyrenees and another 54 kilometres TT to come, do you really think he is wasting until La Toussuire?
Well, if you think that Vingegaard can't drop Evenepoel on Croix de Fer and open a big enough gap...
That said, the route is ****, but would've been raced better on todays peloton.
I think we need a cycling variant of Godwin's law:
As anonline cycling discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler Remco vs Pog or Vingegaard approaches one.
As an
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Vingegaard would tear Remco apart in a 2012 route, even with losing 3 minutes in the TTs.
People remember the 2012 Tour rightfully because of the terrible Skytrain strangelhold the race was in. With Vingegaards (and Pogacar obviously although in this context he's out of the equation) racing style he wouldn't wait until the last 5 minutes of a climb to attack.
He'd put time into Remco on stage 7 and 11, heck probably even on 8, 10 and 14 if he wants to but most importantly would absolute annihilate him on 16 and 17. Aubisque, Tourmalet, Aspin and Peyresourde in quick succession without real valleys in between? Yeah good luck, Visma would rip that field apart.
People always seem to think Vingegaard is a passive rider because he has been slapped around by Pogacar so much but he's actually really agressive unlike that Wiggins/Froome shambles back then.
And apart from Isola (Vingegaards worst day on the bike by his account) and the first week of the Vuelta 2023 Remco has never kept up with Vingegaard on any sort of relevant mountain stage. I like him but so far this isn't really a comparison.
People remember the 2012 Tour rightfully because of the terrible Skytrain strangelhold the race was in. With Vingegaards (and Pogacar obviously although in this context he's out of the equation) racing style he wouldn't wait until the last 5 minutes of a climb to attack.
He'd put time into Remco on stage 7 and 11, heck probably even on 8, 10 and 14 if he wants to but most importantly would absolute annihilate him on 16 and 17. Aubisque, Tourmalet, Aspin and Peyresourde in quick succession without real valleys in between? Yeah good luck, Visma would rip that field apart.
People always seem to think Vingegaard is a passive rider because he has been slapped around by Pogacar so much but he's actually really agressive unlike that Wiggins/Froome shambles back then.
And apart from Isola (Vingegaards worst day on the bike by his account) and the first week of the Vuelta 2023 Remco has never kept up with Vingegaard on any sort of relevant mountain stage. I like him but so far this isn't really a comparison.
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I was talking about the climb. But continue to ignore my point because you are afraid to admit you are wrong. Peak Vingegaard drops peak Remco whenever he wants.
Vingo gained a whole 5 seconds on the climb! Galiber is not a stage to argue your point very well
PDB and stage 20 are far better examples
PDB and stage 20 are far better examples
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Gained 8-9 seconds in 850m and this is a lot in 850m.
Don't be afraid to mention Pla d'Adet.
I broadly agree but I think I would prefer a little more variation in week one, before Planche
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