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Tour De France Dream Stage Structure

Page 2 - Get up to date with the latest news, scores & standings from the Cycling News Community.
Apr 30, 2009
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Libertine Seguros said:
ca. 10 stages for the sprinters? Sounds like a HORRIBLE race. I'd prefer them to do something really drastic, like moving the race forward two months, and holding almost the whole race outside France. Probably in Italy, with a couple of excursions into France in the Alps. Lots of mountain stages - the Tour has never really taken advantage of the Dolomites, has it? I'd prefer them to invite a bunch of Italian teams since they'd be starting and finishing in Italy. I'd perhaps even change that yellow jersey; yes it's iconic, but it's a bit tired and stale isn't it? I think we should go for a vibrant, new pink jersey.

This is the problem! We are getting carried away. First of all, it's all about climbing the mountains. The flat stages are inserted to change it up a bit and give the climbers a rest. To have time bonuses is just ridiculous. Let's just offer free panini. Too many is two time trials. I don't see the point. It's very boring. Very. Nice to see Mr. Cancellara do well, I like him, but a couple of times? I don't think so. More mountains is the only thing to spice it up. What's the point here? Cavendish should win the TDF?
 
Jun 23, 2010
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It's not the tour that need changing. Its the specializsation (spelling) by teams paying big money for specfic events. i.e Cancellara Paris-Roubaix. TDF prologe....then sit back cash the cheque another year done. Contador/Armstrong win the TDF sit back cash the cheque another year done. Same as Cav, come up good at leTour cash that cheque. These big money teams buy the specfic riders who can win when the globe is watching to the detrement of all other races. My proposal, I can't give a simple soloution to it. Can you?
 
me from nearly a year ago said:

Click for larger image


STAGE 1 - Roubaix - Lille TTT 31 km

STAGE 2 - Lille - St. Quentin 169 km

STAGE 3 - Fourmies - Carignan 177 km

STAGE 4 - Carignan - Verdun 209 km

Rest Day

STAGE 5 - Gap - Pelvo d'Elva 160 km
Colle Dell'Agnello > Pelvo d'Elva

STAGE 6 - Cuneo - St Étienne de Tineé 182 km
Colle Fauniera > Cime de la Bonette

STAGE 7 - Bourg d'Osains - Col du Granon 203 km
Alpe d'Huez > Col du Lautaret > Col de l'Izoard > Col du Granon

STAGE 8 - Orelle - Col de Joux Plane 249 km
Col de la Croix de Fer/Glandon > Col de la Colombiere > Col de Joux Plane

STAGE 9 - Lyon - Ambert 178 km

STAGE 10- Issoire - Tulle 199 km

STAGE 11- Tulle - Limoges 169 km

STAGE 12- Aixe-Sur-Vienne - Thiviers TT 51 km

STAGE 13- Perigueux - Tonneins 193 km

STAGE 14- Agen - Pau 184 km

Rest Day

STAGE 15- Larrau - Hautacam 154 km
Col de Labays > Hautacam

STAGE 16- Bedous - Aubisque 70 km
Col de l'Aubisque

STAGE 17- Luz-Saint-Saveur - Tourmalet TT 18 km
Col du Tourmalet

STAGE 18- Llavorsi - Tourmalet 188 km
Col du Portillon > Col de Peyresourde > Col de Peyrefite/d'Azet > Col de l'Aspin
> Col du Tourmalet

STAGE 19- Rouze - Saint Beat 190 km
Port de Pailheres > Col d'Agnes > Col de la Core > Col du Portet d'Aspet > Col de Mente

Rest Day

STAGE 20- Saint-Brieuc - Laval 203 km

STAGE 21- Le Mans - Chartres 191 km

STAGE 22- Epone - Paris Champs TT 61 km

3429 km


Colle Dell'Agnello (Guillestre) 42km @ 4.1% 9003ft
Pelvo d'Elva No stats 10051ft
Colle Fauniera (Pradleves) 22.4km @ 7.5% 8236ft
Cime de la Bonette (Jausiers) 24km @ 6.6% 9190ft
Alpe d'Huez (Bourg d'Osains) 13.2km @ 8.1% 5953ft
Col du Lautaret (Le Clapier) 34km @ 3.8% 6752ft
Col de l'Izoard (Cervieres) 20km @ 5.8% 7744ft
Col du Granon (Saint Chaffrey) 11.5km @ 9.2% 7917ft
Col de la Croix de Fer 30km @ 5.1% 6783ft
Col du Glandon (Croix de Fer) 2.9km
Col de la Colombiere (Grand B) 11.7km @ 5.9% 5290ft
Col du Joux Plane (Samoens) 11.6km @ 8.5% 5546ft
Col de Labays (West) No stats 4431ft
Hautacam 17.3km @ 6.8% 5362ft
Col de l'Aubisque 16.6km @ 7.2% 5605ft
Col du Tourmalet 19km @ 7.4% 6937ft
Col du Portillon (Spanish side) No stats 3634ft
Col de Peyresourde (Bagneres) 15.27km @ 6.1% 5146ft
Col de Peyrefite/d'Azet (Genos) 7.47km @ 8.3% 5182ft
Col de l'Aspin (Arreau) 12km @ 6.5% 4883ft
Col du Tourmalet (S-M de Camp) 17.2km @ 7.4% 6937ft
Port de Pailheres (Mijanes) 10.6km @ 8.2% 6565ft
Col d'Agnes (East side) No stats 5149ft
Col de la Core (Seix) 13.8km @ 6.4% 4575ft
Col du Portet d'Aspet (Audress) 18.1km @ 3.1% 3506ft
Col de Mente (Le Couret) 10.9km @ 6.6% 4424ft


The Alpe d'Huez stage has been totally redone, now Alp d'Huez is the first climb, ending on the 9.2% Granon (steepest ever finish for a Tour stage back in the 80s). Also, the final TT is now longer..

For profiles of the TTs, mountain and the Le Mans stage, go to - http://www.bikely.com/listpaths/by/luckyboy

Still think this'd be cool. Lots of mountains, 161kms of TTing, 3 rest days.

Also think it'd be interesting if, in the middle of the final mountain range, they had a flat TT. For example..
S16 - Alpine descent finish
rest day
S17 - MTF to Alpe d'Huez
S18 - Flat TT nearby
S19 - Back to the Alps for another MTF
S20 - Flat transition stage
S21 - Paris
 
Jul 28, 2010
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luckyboy said:
Still think this'd be cool. Lots of mountains, 161kms of TTing, 3 rest days.

Also think it'd be interesting if, in the middle of the final mountain range, they had a flat TT. For example..
S16 - Alpine descent finish
rest day
S17 - MTF to Alpe d'Huez
S18 - Flat TT nearby
S19 - Back to the Alps for another MTF
S20 - Flat transition stage
S21 - Paris

That's very impressive. All I did was do some Google Earth Directions. Didn't specify all the mountains. Just acting as a Director is fun!
 
I was wrong to call this thread a dream structure as I was trying to make a schedule that the organisers might realistically do. I'd like to see more mountain stages than sprint ones like most people.

Maybe there should be more medium mountain stages? I loved the layout of stage 7 this year. There were two lengthy category 2 climbs to finish. Unfortunately it didn't amount to anything with the GC riders not racing (Chauvennel won it). Maybe the problem with this was that the following day was a big MTF. A medium mountain stage could see more action if it was held a few days before a big MTF. Or perhaps the gradients of these climbs (around 4.5%) just needed to be a bit steeper.

The stage to Mende was another good one this year. I wonder if there are more of these short steep climbs that could be included?

ITT's are a bit boring to watch, but at least the outcome/results is always interesting. The same can't be said for some of the mountain stages which end in a stalemate.

I think that a mountain stage can finish with a descent and then some flat road after it and be entertaining and influence the result. The col du Madaleine stage this year showed that. Another example I can think of was the key stage of the 2006 Vuelta when Vino took off from Valverdje on the descent, then increased his advantage on the run in to the finish.

I would probably like to see no more than three flat stages, but I don't see this happening.

I know there's tradition with it, but I'd scap the KOTM jersey before the green one. I think that it's lost its relevance. The bloke who won it this year wasn't even one of the best twenty climbers in the race!

Yeah, maybe the GIRO organisers should also draw up the tour schedule!

More short uphill sprint finishers is a good idea. Even just 500 metres at 6%. Can Cavendish win? Or will it be a stronger guy?

Stages that are mostly flat can still have some interest if there is a short climb in the run in. Like the stage that Vino won this year. Could have been won by a climber or a sprinter.

I like the suggestion about more variance in the length of stages. Why not have a couple around 100 kms and a couple around 270 kms?

I like most of your points ak-zaaf.

Some interesting ideas jobiwan. There might be thirty riders still going after stage 11! It sounds like a 300 km stage over about 8 massive climbs.

I like the Courchevel climb as well.

I think that Cancerella can have his win in the long time trial at the end, but the earlier time trial should always include a climb. He won't win them both (though he may win the prologue I guess).

Luckyboys's tour would be one for the ages. Difficult to fault. I love the idea of having the Alp du'ez, but for a change not having it as the final climb of the stage. And where has this Col du Granon been all these years? 11.5 kms at 9.2% is an absolute beast, and is the sort of climb that the Giro and Vuelta sometimes have.

Good to see so many passionate Tour fans on here.
 
Jul 14, 2009
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gregrowlerson said:
I know there's tradition with it, but I'd scap the KOTM jersey before the green one. I think that it's lost its relevance. The bloke who won it this year wasn't even one of the best twenty climbers in the race!

Strongly disagree with this. The KOTM may not always go to the best climber in the race, but it always goes to a good one, often a great one. The winners in this decade include guys like Richard Virenque, Michael Rassmussen, Bernard Kohl, Juan Mauricio Soler, Franco Pellizotti... All of these riders were among the premier climbers in their respective race. Yes I know Kohl was disqualified for doping, but it's irrelevant. One of the best climbers in the race still won. Even if a second rate climber like Charteau wins, it still provides an interesting and exciting side story to follow throughout the race. There need to be smaller prizes so that more riders have a chance at some glory. There has been a whole lot of backlash this year about the KOTM jersey after Charteau won it. People have been saying that the jersey goes to sub-par climbers, but exluding Charteau, a bad climber hasn't won the jersey in multiple decades.
 
I think the backlash is more because of Charteau winning it straight off the back of Matty Lloyd winning the Giro one almost unopposed; the Giro one is really an odd one though because if a top climber targets it then you get huge wins (Sella 136 points in 2008, Rujano 143 points in 2005), but if no big rider targets it, the stinginess of the Giro's points system means one big break can win it for you (Garzelli 68 points in 2009) or somebody who lucks into the jersey on a break can get into repeated breaks, collect the 3s and 5s and just have to hold off the GC riders who only take MTFs (Wegmann 56 points in 2004, Lloyd 56 points in 2010).

This is somewhat unknown to the Tour, since there have always been KOM specialists (Jalabert, Virenque, Rasmussen) who will go out there to collect all the points, or GC riders whose GC challenge had gone awry (Pellizotti in 2009, for example). This year there weren't really any of the young guns to be allowed the freedom like Soler was in 2007, and the GC riders who fell out of contention early (which would have allowed them the Pellizotti-like leash) were ones like Armstrong and Wiggins, who are not solid enough mountaintop sprinters anymore to pick up those points. Charteau isn't even a 'bad' climber; sure he was dropped on climbs, but so was Pellizotti last year - nowhere on Arcalis, and on stage 19 he was dropped on a cat.2 climb that Mark fricking Cavendish made it over. This was because he was saving energy for Ventoux and because he had been in multiple breaks. Same goes for Charteau. I'm not saying he's an elite climber, but I think the backlash has been more because people aren't used to the KoM being decided in favour of quiet accumulation ahead of dramatic solo breakaways or GC racing.
 
Jul 28, 2010
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Libertine Seguros said:
I think the backlash is more because of Charteau winning it straight off the back of Matty Lloyd winning the Giro one almost unopposed; the Giro one is really an odd one though because if a top climber targets it then you get huge wins (Sella 136 points in 2008, Rujano 143 points in 2005), but if no big rider targets it, the stinginess of the Giro's points system means one big break can win it for you (Garzelli 68 points in 2009) or somebody who lucks into the jersey on a break can get into repeated breaks, collect the 3s and 5s and just have to hold off the GC riders who only take MTFs (Wegmann 56 points in 2004, Lloyd 56 points in 2010).

This is somewhat unknown to the Tour, since there have always been KOM specialists (Jalabert, Virenque, Rasmussen) who will go out there to collect all the points, or GC riders whose GC challenge had gone awry (Pellizotti in 2009, for example). This year there weren't really any of the young guns to be allowed the freedom like Soler was in 2007, and the GC riders who fell out of contention early (which would have allowed them the Pellizotti-like leash) were ones like Armstrong and Wiggins, who are not solid enough mountaintop sprinters anymore to pick up those points. Charteau isn't even a 'bad' climber; sure he was dropped on climbs, but so was Pellizotti last year - nowhere on Arcalis, and on stage 19 he was dropped on a cat.2 climb that Mark fricking Cavendish made it over. This was because he was saving energy for Ventoux and because he had been in multiple breaks. Same goes for Charteau. I'm not saying he's an elite climber, but I think the backlash has been more because people aren't used to the KoM being decided in favour of quiet accumulation ahead of dramatic solo breakaways or GC racing.

I think you're right. I think the lack of KOM specialists allowed the guys like Pineau, Charteau, and Moreau to go for it. I do think, however, that on most occasions, the King of the Mountains competition should be constructed so the best climbers are the ones who will win. The Charteaus and Moreaus have to do something special to get it.
 
jobiwan said:
I think you're right. I think the lack of KOM specialists allowed the guys like Pineau, Charteau, and Moreau to go for it. I do think, however, that on most occasions, the King of the Mountains competition should be constructed so the best climbers are the ones who will win. The Charteaus and Moreaus have to do something special to get it.

I drew up a draft proposal for restructuring the KOM points.

I planned to do away with 4th-category climbs entirely (the Giro and Vuelta have).
3rd category climbs pay 3, 2 and 1
2nd category climbs pay 8, 5, 3, 2 and 1
1st category climbs pay 12, 8, 6, 4, 2 and 1
HC climbs pay 16, 10, 8, 6, 4, 3, 2 and 1.

This, therefore, rewards the rider going over the top of bigger climbs more than the one going over the top of smaller climbs.

I also proposed not to get rid of the double-points-for-final-mountain system, but to modify it, after Aubisque (60+km from home) and Tourmalet 2009 (70+km from home) paid double points, completely irrelevantly.

My system said that 1st category and HC climbs only would pay double points; these double points would also only be paid for an MTF. However, if the final climb is cat.1 or HC and is within 30km of the end of the stage, it pays 1.5x points. That way the points are graded based on how important to the race the climb is.

By my system Charteau still won the KoM, with 66 points; Andy Schleck was 2nd, on 65, and Moreau 3rd on 61.
 
Jul 19, 2010
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I appreciate all the thinking and work that has been on display here.

I sort of like the Tour already, but am up for some tweaks. The flat stages are a bit boring, but they sort of up the tension for the stages to come - it is a three week event and it needs rhythm, ebb and flow, like a novel or drama. It's like music, if you never are soft, no one can tell when you got loud. But they are a bit boring.

One thing that makes the tour the Tour is the multiple dimensions of competition. But I don't get the current sprinter / GC / Green jersey division, it sort of doesn't work. Green is sort of a "most consistent" award, you'd think, except it isn't. It has 'sprint points' but it isn't really about sprinters, somehow.

If it is going to be 'most consistent top finisher' then ditch the intermediate stage points. They are always won by the doomed breakaway people. Or double or triple them so they are fought for.

Or - with all the transponders now - make the intermediate points be about fastest time over that interval, not first over it. Then some would hold back the last km before them and pour it on during the sprint - likely leading to more crashes, actually.

Oh - and new dresses for the poka-dot podium girls. Or double their fee for looking so stupid in those things.
 
Jun 9, 2010
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JohnNordin said:
Oh - and new dresses for the poka-dot podium girls. Or double their fee for looking so stupid in those things.

How you DARE to say this???? They look really cute in that dresses you know! :mad:

Well this topic is really a tough one... How to make Le Tour more entertained... Some ppl say that we have to erase the flat stages and have just mountain stages... but All we know that the climbers have to rest... as some ppl has said I think that they should put 3rd and 2nd Category climbs before or in the finish cuz they sprinters should fight to get the points, Le Tour is not a race for only climbers or for only sprinters but for the Best All-rounder.

You have to master at least 2 specialities like Climbing and TTing... just climbing you have an opportunity but you'll lose Le Tour in the TT... just TT you can't win Le Tour cuz you'll lose big time in the mountains... and being only and sprinter you'll never win anything except Le Maillot vert... but is important to have all this specialities in Le Tour cuz this spice the competition up... The thing is to have a tour that don't give away anything... The Sprinters shouldn't have a totally flat stage for them... NO... they have to fight for their points so they have to have enough power and skills to climb a 2nd or 3rd category climb before the finish or in the finish to get the points... just look to Hushovd or Freire they can climb so-so and they can sprint with the best... that's the kind of sprinters that we need...

I really like the option that instead have a flat stage, we have to change those stages for Hilly stages, all of them... no flat stages anymore... always hilly stages like LBL or FV... that would be totally great and we could always have finish like Vino's victory in Revel, Second Chavanel's victory, etc... that would be madness a lot of ppl attacking in the last climb... also that would be a start to change the type of riders that we have in the peloton... We need more Hushovds and Freires...

Sorry for the long post BTW :D
 
Jul 28, 2010
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Figured I'd do one more. It's just too much fun.
In France unless stated otherwise.

Stage 1. 20 km TTT. Luxembourg City to Esch-sur-Alzette(Lux)
Stage 2. 210 km flat with small climbs. Villerupt(Fra) to Strasbourg
Stage 3. 160 km flat with small climbs. Strasbourg to Stuttgart(Ger)
Stage 4. 230 km flat with small climbs. Stuttgart to Munich(Ger)
Stage 5. 200 km flat with medium climbs. Memmingen(Ger) to Zurich(Swi)
Stage 6. 30 km ITT flat. Friburg(Swi) to Bern(Swi)
Stage 7. 170 km mountains with MTF. Bern to Verbier(Swi)
Stage 8. 170 km mountains with flat finish. Bagnes(Swi) to Bonneville(Fra)
Climbs: Val de Bagnes and others.
Stage 9. 40 km ITT with small hill. Annecy to Annecy (2009 route)
REST DAY: Doussard
Stage 10. 200 km mountains with MTF. Doussard to Val Thorens
Climbs: Col de la Madeleine
Stage 11. 150 km mountains with descent finish. Albertville to Briancon
Climbs: Col du Telegraphe, Col du Galibier
Stage 12. 250 km small mountains start but flat finish. Briancon to Marseille
Stage 13. 170 km flat along coast. Marseille to Montpellier
Stage 14. 170 km flat run-in to MTF. Narbonne to Port de Pailheres
Stage 15. 200 km mountains to flat finish. Ax-les-Thermes to Tarbes
Climbs: Ax-3-Domaines, Col de Port
Stage 16. 50 km MTF. Tarbes to Col du Tourmalet
REST DAY: Luz-Saint-Sauveur
Stage 17. 150 km mountains w/descent finish. Luz-Saint-Sauveur to Laruns
Climbs: Luz Ardiden, Hautacam, Col d'Aubisque
Stage 18. 190 km flat with no climbs along coast. Bayonne to Bordeaux
Stage 19. 200 km flat with small climbs. Bordeaux to Brive-la-Gaillarde
Stage 20. 15 km Mountain ITT. Clemont-Ferrand to Puy de Dome
Stage 21. 150 km flat stage. Orleans to PARIS

I think this would be hard enough.
 
ak-zaaf said:
-The last in the daily GC is out of the race.

Its called devil takes the hind most. Interesting idea, perhaps should be discussed.

It can prove controversial.

They tried it in an athletics meeting 2 years ago with a very controversial result. In the 3000 metres, the rule was the last person in the 2nd and
4th laps would be eliminated.

As a result everyone bunched together not to be last in the 2nd lap. A spanish girl was pushed and was last by a small margin. They were supposed to inform the eliminated straight away that they were to leave the race. But the margin was so small that they needed video replays to find out who was last, so no one was taken out and as a result, everyone assumed they were still in the race.

Half way through the next lap they found out and put her name up on a board but since the next elimination point was being reached, they had to take it down soon after, and the race just continued. Over the next laps the spanish chick built up a big lead and destroyed the field by about 200 metres.

As she celebrated, she was informed that she had been eliminated in the 2nd round (despite the fact that she was pushed), and therefore that she would not recieve any prize money, the win wouldnt go on her record and her country wouldnt get any points.

You might not get all this confusion in the tdf but what happens when an important rider gets a puncture 4km from the end on the first flat stage or in the prologue, and gets eliminated because of this,

Oh and lantern rouge does have some prestige.

Then again, i am usually behind anything controversial.
 
jobiwan said:
Figured I'd do one more. It's just too much fun.
In France unless stated otherwise.

Stage 1. 20 km TTT. Luxembourg City to Esch-sur-Alzette(Lux)
Stage 2. 200 km flat with small climbs. Dudelange(Lux) to Strasbourg
Stage 3. 160 km flat with small climbs. Strasbourg to Stuttgart(Ger)
Stage 4. 230 km flat with small climbs. Stuttgart to Munich(Ger)
Stage 5. 200 km flat with medium climbs. Memmingen(Ger) to Zurich(Swi)
Stage 6. 30 km ITT flat. Friburg(Swi) to Bern(Swi)
Stage 7. 170 km mountains with MTF. Bern to Verbier(Swi)
Stage 8. 170 km mountains with flat finish. Bagnes(Swi) to Bonneville
Climbs: Val de Bagnes and others.
Stage 9. 40 km ITT with small hill. Annecy to Annecy (2009 route)
REST DAY: Doussard
Stage 10. 200 km mountains with MTF. Doussard to Val Thorens
Climbs: Col de la Madeleine
Stage 11. 150 km mountains with descent finish. Albertville to Briancon
Climbs: Col du Telegraphe, Col du Galibier
Stage 12. 250 km small mountains start but flat finish. Briancon to Marseille
Stage 13. 170 km flat along coast. Marseille to Montpellier
Stage 14. 170 km flat run-in to MTF. Narbonne to Port de Pailheres
Stage 15. 200 km mountains to flat finish. Ax-les-Thermes to Tarbes
Climbs: Ax-3-Domaines, Col de Port
Stage 16. 50 km MTF. Tarbes to Col du Tourmalet
REST DAY: Luz-Saint-Sauveur
Stage 17. 150 km mountains w/descent finish. Luz-Saint-Sauveur to Laruns
Climbs: Luz Ardiden, Hautacam, Col d'Aubisque
Stage 18. 190 km flat with no climbs. Bayonne to Bordeaux
Stage 19. 200 km flat with small climbs. Bordeaux to Brive-la-Gaillarde
Stage 20. 15 km Mountain ITT. Clemont-Ferrand to Puy de Dome
Stage 21. 150 km flat stage. Orleans to PARIS

I think this would be hard enough.

I like it, though dont like the idea of the tour de France being half way done before it even enters france.

Love the annency time trial though. a great place to holf a tt.
 
Jul 28, 2010
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The Hitch said:
I like it, though dont like the idea of the tour de France being half way done before it even enters france.

Love the annency time trial though. a great place to holf a tt.

I did one where it was all in France, I figured I'd see what else I could do.
I changed it so where all 2nd stage is in France.
 
Jul 19, 2010
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Re the TT: make it a complicated course. Small roads, sharp turns, some climbs and then the last 5-6km dead flat and straight. Something that requires some technical work not just pure speed.

And certainly we have the technology to have a running clock of how far behind or head someone is against the leader - this 2 or 3 checkpoint thing is totally 1999.
 
Jun 10, 2009
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galaxy1 said:
* ITTs are fundamentally a bit boring though - that's the problem. if you are going to have them, i think a potential improvement is to have them relatively early in the race so that climbers can go on the attack to make up for lost time (potentially making the climbing more interesting)

You have that totally backwards. They need the climbs early on so they are not wasted by the top climbers marking each other. Give us some brutal MTFs in the first week, and an equally brutal 70-80km pan-flat crosswind-exposed ITT near the end. That trackstand business would never have happened if climbers faced the prospect of Menchov or an in-form Evans (should that day ever come;)) making up 5 mins in a flat TT after the last big climb.

And take away the radios (and loud-hailers in team cars) from the ITT so the riders have no splits timing while you're at it.