Tour De France Dream Stage Structure

[Sasquatch]

Saturday - Stage 1: TTT (30km)

________________________

Sunday - Stage 2: Sprinter stage with 2 cat 4's half way through

_____^________^_____________ (210km)

Monday - Stage 3: Stage along the coast

________________________________ (200km)

Tuesday - Stage 4: Stage finishing on a short 2-3km climb.

_______^___________/ (220km)

Wednesday - Stage 5: Sprinter stage with a few cat 4 climbs.

_____^__^___^_______________ (180km)


Thursday - Stage 6: 5 small climbs, with one 8km from the finish

_____^___^__^_^__________^__ (190km)

Friday - Stage 7: Sprinter stage with a cat 3 climb, 30km from the finish.

_________^________^_______ (210km)

Saturday - Stage 8: Head to Spain, with a few small and big climbs, with a category 1 20km from the finish.

_____^_____^____^____^___ (180km)

Sunday - Stage 9: MTF up the Bola del Mundo but a few tough cat 1 climbs beforehand.

__^__^____^_____/ (190km)


Monday - Rest Day

Tuesday - Stage 10: Four tough cat 1 climbs in the Alps, with a 30km descent to the finish. Covering Galibier, Madeleine etc

___^____^____^_____^___ (195km)
.
Wednesday - Stage 11: MTF up Alp d'Huez with 2 cat 1 climbs before it.

________^___^_____/ (190km)

Thursday - Stage 12: MTF up ??????? with 3 cat 1 climbs before it

___^________^__^____/ (190km)

Friday - Stage 13: Flat stage (210km)

__________________________

Saturday - Stage 14: Stage with some cat 4 climbs, but a sprint finish.\

_____^_____^___^____________ (225km)

Sunday - Stage 15: Head into the Pyrenees, with three cat 1 climbs on offer, not a MTF.

____^_____^_________^____ (170km)

Monday - Rest Day

Tuesday - Stage 16: MTF up Tourmalet with 3 huge climbs before it.

____^______^_____^______/ (180km)


Wednesday - Stage 17: MTF up Mont Ventoux with 3 huge climbs before it.

___^__^___^__________/ (185km)

Thursday Stage 18: Flat stage

____^______^_____________ (220km)

Friday - Stage 19: Flat stage

__________________________ (190km)

Saturday - Stage 20: 60km ITT

___________^_________^___________ (60km)

Sunday - Stage 21: Paris

_____________________________________

Will seperate the men from the boys.

 

[Jamsque]

FYI the Tourmalet and Ventoux are nowhere near each other. That's about a six hour transfer in between MTFs.

 

[Sasquatch]

I didn't look at maps, but that was a brief outline of really saying we need five MTF's in the tour. Change stages to accommodate everything.

 

[Rocksteady]

Some great Ideas here... I just wish people would stop trying to make the Tour the Giro... We have a race like that already. I like that the Tour has mountains that aren't always decisive. It thins out the group but leaves some suspense for later. While sprint stages get boring because they are long, the sprints are great. Make the stages shorter, but don't get rid of the sprinter's battle.

Some of the good Ideas.

Hilltop or Cobbs prologue/TT/TTT??
Champs ITT!!!
No more Flats after mountains, Either MTF or descending finish
More TT kms

 

[valentius borealis]

for the record, I think Cav would have won green this year if they had the same system as both the Giro and Vuelta (25, 20, 16, 14, 12, 10, 9, 8, 7, 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1 on every stage)(I calculated it up a couple of days from the end of the race but never completed the calculations).

I don't see what's wrong with that stage. After all, it's the points jersey, not the points for flat stages jersey. Unless you make the race completely un-sprinter-friendly like the Giro was this year, then the sprinters will always have a good chance at the jersey anyway.

I got bored one night and decided to calculate it. I think that it came out (if my calculations were correct) with Pettachi edging out Cav by 1 point. I didn't keep the file but I can do it again if you want.

As for the mountains, I'd love to see Le Mont du Chat on the route.

Edit: just done the calculations again

Alejet 158
Cav 156
Thor 125
A Schleck 101
Contador 96

I kept the intermediate sprints as they are, but if they too were done like in the Giro, Alejet wouldn't have gotten the 6 points that he got on an intermediate sprint on the stage of Gap.

 

[kurtinsc]

While it would never happen, I really would like to see a truly beastly tour with a good mix of stages.

While I'm not sure of the order, I'd like:

-1 5km prologue
-1 30 km ITT with rolling hills
-1 60 km ITT that's flat (in an area known for wind)
-1 15-20 km mountian ITT
-1 cobbled stage. Give me the last 150km of Paris-Roubaix
-3 MTF's. One should be dominated by a huge final climb but not much earlier, one should be up and down all day with little flat, and one somewhere betwen the two.
-2 tough mountain stages ending with downhills.
-3 hilly stages. Kind of like stage 2 this year only without the oil-slicks to mess things up.
-3 pancake flat stages (one being the finish in Paris, one being somewhere with good chances of wind splitting things up).
-2 "rough" stages which can still be sprints
-2 medium mountain stages with a flat finish... for the sprinters with climbing legs.
-1 medium mountain stage with a 7-8 km uphill finish.

 

[Lupetto]

Latest rumour ... the riders have to climb the L'Alpe d'Huez twice according to John Wilcockson of Velonews

Looks like he copied these informations from Thomas Vergouwen and his readers without giving any credit.

http://laflammerouge.com/le-plagiat-de-john-wilcockson/

 

[Anonymous]

I would like to see the introduction of a....

Mountain team time trial.. Really force the teams to work together, and support that fifth man

 

[Libertine Seguros]

FYI the Tourmalet and Ventoux are nowhere near each other. That's about a six hour transfer in between MTFs.

Less confusing than the decision to use Bola del Mundo. There are some Spanish Pyrenean climbs that the Tour uses - Pla de Beret, Cerler, etc, and some that are on the border like Arrête St.Martin. But Bola del Mundo is close to Madrid. You'd be pushing it to use the Basque country climbs, going a bit far out of the way to use the Asturian climbs, but totally ridiculous to do Bola del Mundo. This isn't the crossing-the-border-over-the-mountain-passes of Sestrieres, Arcalis or Prato Nervoso (or Giro stages that go to Briançon for example).

If you're going to go with great foreign climbs with poor surfaces, surely the Colle delle Finestre would fit the bill.

I'm not sure how often the Tour does those "monolithically difficult climb peaking a long way out with a not-especially-difficult climb to finish, meaning to open up the gaps you have to attack early". You know, like Finestre-Sestrières in 2005, Gavia-Bormio 2000 in 2004, or any Mortirolo-Aprica stage.

 

[Race Radio]

Looks like he copied these informations from Thomas Vergouwen and his readers without giving any credit.

http://laflammerouge.com/le-plagiat-de-john-wilcockson/

Every year Thomas is the guy to go to for Tour route info......and every big journalist takes all of his info, and gives him no credit.

 

[garrito]

Repetitive segments are not that interesting to me. It's why I don't watch NASCAR.

I like the differentation mentioned with some good climbs and some good sprints.

 

[auscyclefan94]

The link to the guy called thomas has for stage 11 that it will be possibly a itt between Blaye les mines - lavaur. He said there was only 54km between the two towns which is incorrect as there iis 150km between each of the towns.

 

[craig1985]

Every year Thomas is the guy to go to for Tour route info......and every big journalist takes all of his info, and gives him no credit.

If Thomas's mail is correct then there will be a stage finish to Super Besse:

He mentions there could be a chance of it finishing in Lourdes, and if they go over the Tourmalet then:

 

[craig1985]

That's the one, with Simoni and di Luca fighting to distance Savoldelli, Rujano clinging to their back wheels, other riders seemingly pacing Savoldelli, deals, intrigue and carnage, di Luca cramping up and Rujano finally dropping Simoni to win. Great stage.

I just watched that stage on DVD. Phil and Paul were gushing over how much Rujano was going to be the future star of the sport and dominate in the "mountains for years to come". I bet Ardilla got a nice pay day, and perhaps MOVED him to a bigger house.

Sorry, shameless Simpsons quote

 

[Ferminal]

If Thomas's mail is correct then there will be a stage finish to Super Besse:

He mentions there could be a chance of it finishing in Lourdes, and if they go over the Tourmalet then:

Super Besse in 2008 was for the win... CVV with magic legs off the front by a minute and then a mad dash for the line, lead by the Cobra himself.

 

[craig1985]

Yes, it's possible.

http://www.steephill.tv/2006/col-de-sarenne/

Google Col de Sarenne for more info if you're interested

Thanks for that.

I'm sure that the commentators always used to say that there was only one way up the mountain and so only one way down it.

Looks like a solid climb. Would say yes for this one.

 

[Sophistic]

If the info by velonews is correct...this is one of toughest TDFs in a while, lovin it.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

I just watched that stage on DVD. Phil and Paul were gushing over how much Rujano was going to be the future star of the sport and dominate in the "mountains for years to come". I bet Ardilla got a nice pay day, and perhaps MOVED him to a bigger house.

Sorry, shameless Simpsons quote

Rujano would have done if he hadn't been so poorly managed. He's a guy who has to be handled with kid gloves. I only hope that Urán's move to Sky won't be a case of déjà vu for Rujano's QS one.

 

[halamala]

There will be four mountain top finish: Super-Besse, Plateau-de-Beille, Col-du-Galibier and L'Alpe d'Huez. I'm 95 % sure.

 

[craig1985]

Rujano would have done if he hadn't been so poorly managed. He's a guy who has to be handled with kid gloves. I only hope that Urán's move to Sky won't be a case of déjà vu for Rujano's QS one.

I think Savio said he agent/manager was a pastry chef, and nothing more.

 

[auscyclefan94]

This thomas guy needs to check some of his stage routes.

Stage 11 on his provisional tdf stage map has a 54km ITT from Carmaux to Lavaur.

Carmaux and lamaur are 160km away and that is a direct route.

 

[gregrowlerson]

A 4 Year TDF Cycle:

It’s pretty obvious that in 2013 we are going to have an overload of parcours classicness. There will be the Tourmalet, the Galibier, probably a trip to the Mont Venteoux, possibly Hautacam, as well as a likely finish in Le Grand Bornard (excuse my very poor spelling). And we already know about the proposed double trip up the Alp du’huez.

But after that, the many parcours of anniversary celebrations will be over, and perhaps the TDF can get into a cycle – one of both familiarity and innovation.

There are some aspects of the TDF that are included too often. Just to make them a part of the TDF a little less often could improve things a lot with the yearly parcours. I don’t love the regular stages to Pau, but they are here to stay it seems, and a stage like last years one is not so bad. A high mountain stage should occasionally give the chance of victory to a non GC rider, and Pau does that perfectly. It just shouldn’t waste three or four good climbs whilst doing so (or host a finish every second year).

So this proposed template is certainly not re-inventing the wheel (it may make it even more stale to some), but it encourages slightly less use of the ‘yearly’ Tourmalet and ‘every other year’ Alp, while guaranteeing regular use of warranted stages (see Plad ‘adet) and providing an option to still explore new climbs (thanks heaps to Libertine Seguros for many of his past suggestions) or go over a long forgotten one. The TDF has always been the GT that is most often for the all around rider rather than just pure climber; as such, ITT should not be forgotten.

 

[gregrowlerson]

We do not even need to have extra high mountain stages. Lets say that each Tour has five days in the two high mountain ranges – one has two, the other three, alternating year by year. Over a four year period the Alps has eight days for ‘standard’ stages, with two days of room for innovation (as has been pointed out by other posters numerous times, there are many unused climbs being wasted in the Alps – such as the Alpes-Maritimes area - and Pyrenees). Vice versa for the Pyrenees. I do not see a great need for the Tour De France to use many of its high mountain stages outside of France (the Agnello, which starts in Italy, could be an exception as it’s a great climb and is right on the border), thought to use Finestre before Sestrieres is bloody tempting! Another topic of discussion could be, should the three Grand Tours venture far outside their own country?

Alps cycle of approx. every 4 years:

Finish in Morzine (highlighted by the Ju-plaix).
MTF on Alp du’huez.
Finish in Le Grand Bornard (often with the Romme-Columbierre).
MTF on Courchevell or La Toussierre or Les Deux-Alpes (only every 12 years, too long?).
Finish in Briacon (after the Telegraphe-Galibier).
Descent finish after the Agnello and Izoard (like the Giro stage in ’07 and occasionally even finish on the mountain if logistically possible) or into Jausiers after Lombarde-Bonette.
Madeleine descent finish (like ’98 or 2010).
MTF on Col du Granon (would it be possible to do this climb after the Telegraphe-Galibier?) or Mont du Chat.


Climbs like the Glandon, Forclaz, Croix der Fer, etc would be used in the middle of stages. To use the la Montée du Mont-Salève (17.7% km wall in the middle of 15km climb) would be great too. Can it be combined with any of the combinations above?


Pyrenees cycle of approx. every 4 years:

Tourmalet used every other year. Mainly with three options, so each approx. once every six years. MTF on La Mongie (two-thirds up the Tourmalet itself), MTF on Hautacam, MTF on Luz-Ardiden.
Rollercoaster, 5-6 col stage to Plad ‘adet. Does CP have no love for this epic stage?
Descent finish after the Perysourde/or do the course the opposite way to highlight the very steep Mente and d’Aspet.
Plateau De Beille MTF.
Finish in Pau.
Finish on Arcalis (but could also have other mountains prior to it like in ’97 stage) or Ax3-Domaines.
Soudet-Larrau-Bagarguy (Descent finish like stage 16 ’03, but less than the 70 km flat run in) or finish into Luchon (after Port de Bales or Superbagnères or other).
Port de Larrau MTF (similar overall statistics to PDB, but much more of a ‘Giro’ climb with numerous sections at 10%+) or Col d'Errozate (10.1kms @ 9.6%) or can these climbs be linked together for an epic stage?

Climbs like the Aubisque, Pailheres, etc would be used in the middle of stages.


Just occasionally, would it be good for the TDF to have two mountain stages back to back over the same terrain (the second day they do the same route in reverse)?


Other stages that could effect GC and may be held approx. every four years:

Stage into Gap.
Mont Venteoux.
Mende & Super-Besse & Puy de Dôme (14km @ 7.5%, final 6km @ 10%+) MTF’s (plus further use of the Massif-Central – climb to Mont Mézenc if possible).
Vosges mountains.
Jura mountains (Grand Colombier, in the TDF this year, yeah!).
Ardennes.
Mountainous stages around Grenoble (can include Col del Luitel, 10.3kms @ 8.7%).

And one only has to glance at previous Paris-Nice profiles (plus some of the Dauphine) to see that there are numerous other climbs in France that are unused at the Tour. Though these tend to be smaller and shallower climbs, plenty could be used to create more interesting medium mountain stages. Stage 7 from ’07 is a good example of use of climbs around the Nice area. Or stage 1 from ’08 Dauphine finish in Privas (we don’t see these climbs used). Stage 5 from ’05 Paris-Nice which finishers on Mont-Faron, 5.5kms @ 8.9%.

It could even be interesting if on just one occasion, the entire TDF avoided the two major mountain ranges! For an interesting race could still be created.

Normally there should be approx. four-five medium mountain type stages in each Tour which ‘could’ effect GC.

Another factor of the Tour is cobblestones. Previously I have been a bit anti them, seeing them as more of a classics thing, but for an occasional experiment I reckon it’s fine. Once every four years. Probably no more than the amount that they had in 2010, and sometimes a little less.

Now for the TT. And I don’t just mean individual.

The TTT has a lot of tradition in the Tour De France, and it’s tradition is to have long tests against the clock. I’d like to see this return. I’d much prefer that then the regular short TTT that is served up, which is sort of a, “we’d like to include it, but don’t want to offend others too much” way of going about it. I’d like to see a 50-60 km TTT, but only every leap year. Every leap year there is a more unpredictable Tour, and this could contain both the long TTT and cobblestones stage.

A great climber should almost always have a shot in the Tour, so in a year with a TTT we might offset things a little with a MTT. Not sure why we haven’t seen one of these since ’04.

Generally the TDF should have a lot of TT. The lowest I would go would be a prologue and a 50 km ITT. No, even that’s not enough, so I would include a short MTT too like Arcallis or Ax3-Domaines. That could be once every four years. Then we could have 55 km and 50 km individual tests against the clock (mostly flat). Then a prologue, 35 km hilly and 55 km flat. Finally the varied one, with a 50-60 km TTT, 15 km MTT, and 50 km mostly flat. Occasionally there can be the possibility of a wild ITT, where they might go over the Telegraphe-Galibier and into Briacon (a Giro ’09 type ITT should not be cancelled out completely). I see the prologue as being an every other year event with the other stage one being a sprint or slightly uphill finish. Most of the mountains mentioned in this piece could be picked out for use as a MTT.

I would be happy to see even more ITT, but figure that I’m unlikely to see four TT’s in any future TDF’s. Three in each is still enough to make the race interesting and varied.

Whilst having their ‘staple’ stages, the TDF should still be willing to sometimes go for the wow factor. For example, imagine three consecutive finishers in Briacon, Morzine and Le Grand Bornard? It would be three ‘Queen’ stages in a row, all having the distinction of not having a MTF. That don’t mean an easy Tour though, and of course the Pyrenees might throw in easier stages (but MTF’s) to La Mongie and Ax3-Domaines for good measure.

Just with that collection of high mountain stages you already have a fantastic TDF.

The traditional area of the Tour that I am unsure about are the final two stages. Should these always be a flat individual time trial and a sprinters stage on the Champs-Elyseay?

Probably not. I’ve always thought it strange to have the final stage be of GC irrelevance. Imagine a friend watching the Tour for the first time – it would be likely to happen on the final stage. They might be all excited about it, unsure of who is going to win. Until you tell them, “I’m sorry, but I know exactly who is going to win.” “What do you mean? They haven’t finished the race yet.” “I know they haven’t, but the race is already over.”

Insert shocked smilie here.

Despite the weirdness of this scenario, the sprinters do deserve their day in the sun, and I’m sure that many of the other riders (and spectators in Paris) appreciate the easy ride around Paris too. So maybe having this finish to the Tour is best for every other year, because why should the sprinters have their ‘Alp du’Huez’ every year? And having it less often will just make winning it all the more prestigious.

The organisers now get some freedom to do something else with the final stage. Time Trial? I am not so sure. I am not convinced that the race of truth should be the final GC stage; at least not all the time. I know Venteoux in ’09 didn’t work very well, but a setup of long flat ITT in the middle of the race, with MTT about stage 16 and a MTF as the final stage seems like a pretty good Tour….on occasion. Everything in moderation!

The organisers mostly get it right. That’s why we get so frustrated; because they are often so close. Most of us are saying, “All you need is a real ‘Queen’ stage here and/or an ITT there.” This years TDF is a good example. Most of us feel that it’s just a tougher mountain stage away from being a great route.

Anyone for Plad ‘adet?

 

[greenedge]

As you describe in the first page La Toussire is a steep climb. This years TDF does need another high MTF but i like the first week again ( though more hilly, other than Seraing/ exposed areas could be used ).
I like the idea of a long TTT but that would disadvantage riders like Samu, who has attacking flair and shows a lot of grit. However token TTT's are annoying too ( TDF 2013 ).

I do agree that the Vosges, Jura and Massif central areas should be used more. Maybe Col Du Laffey could be used in a mountain stage sometime. I also like the idea of Mont Faron.

I don't like the idea however of having the same mountains included just to fit in with the TDF history or to be unveiled again. I believe they should use those historic climbs but still seek out new climbs ( which is unfortunately not happening so much ) but next years TDF route does have some steep, new climbs though not of the grandeur of a high MTF.

 

[McLovin]

I myself don't agree with using a mountain almost every year, but Tourmalet is the only pass between two zones, one with Hautacam, Aubisque, Luz Ardiden, Marie Blanque, Saint Martin, Larau etc and one with Perysourde, Aspin, Pla d'Adet etc. And given the fact that it's not so easy to have 2-3 tough mountain stages only right or exclusively left to Tourmalet, that is the reason it is used so much. In the end, it's a good mid-stage climb with good lenght and good avg slope.