Tour de Suisse 2024, June 9 - 16

[Berniece]

So Jonas did the best ITT performance in history a few months back and was peachy during his whole 2024 season campaign, obviously till the crash. Rogla beating him convincingly in such ITT hence means nothing much. As for Remco and Dauphiné ITT, this in my opinion was a rather good benchmarks and i don't tend to agree Rogla did bad. Likely this was the hardest ITT, for him, at least till the end of the Tour. Hard in the terms of being or not being favourable to his characteristics.

Do you mean the TDF ITT last year? That's not comparable at all. You said that Roglic is the best 1-week stage racer and somehow he showed that this year. I'm just saying that if there's one year that Roglic didn't show he's still the best 1-week stage racer, it's obviously this year.

Failed at Paris-Nice
Crashed at Itzulia before he could show that he could win it
Barely won Dauphine against Jorgenson

Sorry, but Vingegaard and Pogacar are just better at 1-week stage races, as well as GT's.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

@tobydawq

It was a successful long range defence, Rogla is getting there, conceptually.

Long range defence, epic! One has to hope Rogla doesn't choose too long range during the Tour!

 

[SHAD0W93]

Long range defence, epic! One has to hope Rogla doesn't choose too long range during the Tour!

They do say the best offense is a great defense.

 

[CyclistAbi]

@Berniece

No i don't buy that, there is some sort of a switch, on where Jonas is miles ahead, only on races when he doesn't participate against Rogla.

@Krzysztof_O

If 82km solo defence will be needed, then so be it. That would likely make him GOAT solo defender, would need to check.

 

[SHAD0W93]

@Berniece

No i don't buy that, there is some sort of a switch, on where Jonas is miles ahead, only on races when he doesn't participate against Rogla.

No one can say that you’re not consistent.

 

[Berniece]

@Berniece

No i don't buy that, there is some sort of a switch, on where Jonas is miles ahead, only on races when he doesn't participate against Rogla.

It had nothing to do with perfect knowledge of the stage and every corner, and the fact that it was already the 16th stage so fatigue weighted in for a lot of people except the best GT riders?

 

[Froome]

@tobydawq

It was a successful long range defence, Rogla is getting there, conceptually.

Those long range defences may not go well in the Tour.

 

[CyclistAbi]

It had nothing to do with perfect knowledge of the stage and every corner, and the fact that it was already the 16th stage so fatigue weighted in for a lot of people except the best GT riders?

It's like prior to Dauphiné this was accepted as a very hard stage race on paper and had deep field involved. After Dauphiné, on where Rogla won, obviously ToS became a much tougher stage race, on where the UAE duo has beaten inconsistent Skjelmose and Bernal still on the comeback. Ergo Adam, João, Pogi and even Jonas, they are all in a different league. That is when Jonas wins any stage race he enters, by as you say a mile, then against Rogla he loses an ITT convincingly, that is against Rogla, that is supposedly in a really bad shape.

You have to admit that is a bit peculiar. Maybe the explanation is much more simple, that is Rogla is up there if not a level above. We'll see at the Tour. Maybe Rogla will prove to be rather equal, maybe he will get dropped, or he will drop others. Some of you it seems will really struggle to spin this again if Rogla doesn't get dropped, at least by Adam.

Those long range defences may not go well in the Tour.

Who knows, as maybe that is exactly what is needed to crack somebody like Pogi or Jonas.

 

[Berniece]

It's like prior to Dauphiné this was accepted as a very hard stage race on paper and had deep field involved. After Dauphiné, on where Rogla won, obviously ToS became a much tougher stage race, on where the UAE duo has beaten inconsistent Skjelmose and Bernal still on the comeback. Ergo Adam, João, Pogi and even Jonas, they are all in a different league. That is when Jonas wins any stage race he enters, by as you say a mile, then against Rogla he loses an ITT convincingly, that is against Rogla, that is supposedly in a really bad shape.

You have to admit that is a bit peculiar. Maybe the explanation is much more simple, that is Rogla is up there if not a level above. We'll see at the Tour. Maybe Rogla will prove to be rather equal, maybe he will get dropped, or he will drop others. Some of you it seems will really struggle to spin this again if Rogla doesn't get dropped, at least by Adam.

I don't understand what you are trying to say anymore. It's not worth the discussion. If you want to believe he's still the best 1-week stage racer, fine.

 

[CyclistAbi]

I don't understand what you are trying to say anymore. It's not worth the discussion. If you want to believe he's still the best 1-week stage racer, fine.

Plus GT rider as well.

 

[Berniece]

Plus GT rider as well.

In which universe? Not ours

 

[Froome]

In which universe? Not ours

Let's not forget @CyclistAbi also said Roglic is the GOAT of stage racing.

Slovenia is full of GOATs.

 

[CyclistAbi]

In which universe? Not ours

Well, Tour is just around the corner, so lets first tackle the most prestigious GT in the whole universe.

 

[Monte Serra]

Didn't realise Roglič competed in this year's Tour de Suisse. Great discussion.

 

[CyclistAbi]

@tobydawq

Possibly. Still, Tour is just around the corner and lets see on where Rogla stacks. Will it be somewhere behind Adam, somewhere in between or possibly ahead of the supposedly untouchable duo. Some of you claim the duo is out of reach, some suggest doms of the duo are out of reach too. Personally i don't buy that. In my opinion believing Jonas coming from such injuries and Pogi having Giro in his legs, they don't stand a chance against Rogla. We'll see.

 

[Samu Cuenca]

@tobydawq

Possibly. Still, Tour is just around the corner and lets see on where Rogla stacks. Will it be somewhere behind Adam, somewhere in between or possibly ahead of the supposedly untouchable duo. Some of you claim the duo is out of reach, some suggest doms of the duo are out of reach too. Personally i don't buy that. In my opinion believing Jonas coming from such injuries and Pogi having Giro in his legs, they don't stand a chance against Rogla. We'll see.

You've convinced me now. Rogla 2024!

 

[SHAD0W93]

@tobydawq

Possibly. Still, Tour is just around the corner and lets see on where Rogla stacks. Will it be somewhere behind Adam, somewhere in between or possibly ahead of the supposedly untouchable duo. Some of you claim the duo is out of reach, some suggest doms of the duo are out of reach too. Personally i don't buy that. In my opinion believing Jonas coming from such injuries and Pogi having Giro in his legs, they don't stand a chance against Rogla. We'll see.

So by your logic, Roglic wouldn’t be the best stage racer if he beats an injured Vingegaard and Giro legged Pogacar since they won’t be at their best?

 

[CyclistAbi]

@SHAD0W93

You didn't read everything i wrote and that is Rogla already is the best stage racer. If other riders focused on other goals or are injured, for sure there will be plenty of opportunities left in the future, Rogla isn't going anywhere. On top of that i feel that we are now going in circles and as such i feel this attitude camp is more or less completed, we did our job good and thanks guys for participating. Now some relaxation and family time is at play and see you at the Tour.

P.S. Well, maybe in between we will have to comment on apparel, presentation, team selection ... The important stuff.

 

[SHAD0W93]

@SHAD0W93

You didn't read everything i wrote and that is Rogla already is the best stage racer. If other riders focused on other goals or are injured, for sure there will be plenty of opportunities left in the future, Rogla isn't going anywhere. On top of that i feel that we are now going in circles and as such i feel this attitude camp is more or less completed, we did our job good and thanks guys for participating. Now some relaxation and family time is at play and see you at the Tour.

P.S. Well, maybe in between we will have to comment on apparel, presentation, team selection ... The important stuff.

Oh I read what you wrote, you said they don’t stand a chance with these issues. So obviously without them they would stand a chance or more, so by your logic a Roglic win would have an asterisk. Don’t forget you also think Roglic is the best monument, one day, Olympic, cobbled and hilly classic, Worlds, and sprinter. The fact posters aren’t calling Roglic the GOAT and instead the fraud Pogacar must be annoying.

 

[CyclistAbi]

@SHAD0W93

Actually no. That is all you now, rationalising aloud, trying to, on why Rogla can't be the best stage racer, winning the Tour 2024. That is because you don't recognise the fact he already is one. As for calling other cyclists frauds, personally i am really grateful to Pogi, Jonas and Remco, among others, they really give validation to Rogla and to his achievements. And on top of that they all seem like nice people.

 

[tobydawq]

@SHAD0W93

You didn't read everything i wrote and that is Rogla already is the best stage racer. If other riders focused on other goals or are injured, for sure there will be plenty of opportunities left in the future, Rogla isn't going anywhere. On top of that i feel that we are now going in circles and as such i feel this attitude camp is more or less completed, we did our job good and thanks guys for participating. Now some relaxation and family time is at play and see you at the Tour.

P.S. Well, maybe in between we will have to comment on apparel, presentation, team selection ... The important stuff.

Again, Pogacar has beaten Thomas by five and eleven minutes the last two times he faced him in a Grand Tour. Roglic beat him by 14 seconds in the Giro.

How is it possible to miss the logical conclusion to that? [[content deleted]

Also, if the only relevant measure is the number of Grand Tour wins, then Froome is the best Grand Tour rider currently.

 

[CyclistAbi]

@tobydawq

No point in widening this debate, things like winning margin. I am perfectly OK with on how Rogla won Giro 2023 and as far as i am concerned it would be rather special, to win the Tour 2024 in such way too. Said that there is nothing wrong with on how Pogi won Giro 2024 either. I don't find one approach grand and another one not. We could try to make some conclusions, solely based on winning margin, but all of that would go to shambles anyway, at the start of the Tour 2024.

 

[Berniece]

@tobydawq

No point in widening this debate, things like winning margin. I am perfectly OK with on how Rogla won Giro 2023 and as far as i am concerned it would be rather special, to win the Tour 2024 in such way too. Said that there is nothing wrong with on how Pogi won Giro 2024 either. I don't find one approach grand and another one not. We could try to make some conclusions, solely based on winning margin, but all of that would go to shambles anyway, at the start of the Tour 2024.

Why even watch cycling, just read results

 

[CyclistAbi]

@Berniece

Widening debate comment went into direction we already came full circle in this discussion. So if you feel some more general debate should be opened, about something, feel free to do that. AFAIK there was a debate about winning margin opened on this forum a while back. As for general debate, state of things in between main GC favourites, likely best if we do that in some thread dedicated to Tour 2024. In this ToS thread, at the end, we compared ToS to Dauphiné. Beyond that i feel it woudl become too much out of topic.