Tour Match Up: Gesink v Van Den Broeck

[Parrulo]

 

[Spine Concept]

That made me lol. I agree!

 

[theyoungest]

He's afraid

The Giro di Lombardia, maybe. But that race is decided in a descent these days, so that's 1-0 for Nibali.

 

[Parrulo]

ofc he is afraid of nibali. sorry dutchies gesink may be more talented(and thats arguable) but nibali is 10 times the rider.

i think we should move this discussion to the "is robert gesink soft?" thread because mentally he is a wimp

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Exactly. As far as Vanendert goes, he did a great job today no doubt. However, they shouldn't get too carried away, the favorites did let him go after all. In fact, he said so himself in this post-race interview. Now thát, expecially for taiwan, would be over-hyping. I do hope he shows what he's made of in the Alps. We'll see then if he can really stay with the favorites when they put in a proper attack.

Of course. Vanendert did two great stages and rode away because they let him. Chances are next week he'll suffer because of it, especially after working for Gilbert like he did. On the other hand, Samu couldn't drop him and couldn't catch him (in fact, he only gained 10 seconds on Vanendert if i remember correctly). It would be interesting to see him ride for his own account in the Vuelta for instance to see if he can confirm his efforts.

 

[Parrulo]

Of course. Vanendert did two great stages and rode away because they let him. Chances are next week he'll suffer because of it, especially after working for Gilbert like he did. On the other hand, Samu couldn't drop him and couldn't catch him (in fact, he only gained 10 seconds on Vanendert if i remember correctly). It would be interesting to see him ride for his own account in the Vuelta for instance to see if he can confirm his efforts.

all of sudden venendert is better then samu . . . .

samu was clearly stronger then venendert on friday on the sprint to the line he left venendert for dead and he clearly could have dropped him before but was holding back so he had some1 to share the work with. and today he regained 20 secs not 10.

 

[theyoungest]

all of sudden venendert is better then samu . . . .

samu was clearly stronger then venendert on friday on the sprint to the line he left venendert for dead and he clearly could have dropped him before but was holding back so he had some1 to share the work with. and today he regained 20 secs not 10.

Vanendert was stronger on Friday as well, Samu just had a better kick in the end, but you could see how he was suffering on Vanendert's wheel (or acting, in which case he did a pretty good job)

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

all of sudden venendert is better then samu . . . .

samu was clearly stronger then venendert on friday on the sprint to the line he left venendert for dead and he clearly could have dropped him before but was holding back so he had some1 to share the work with. and today he regained 20 secs not 10.

Where exactly did i say that? I think i merely stated facts, no? Samu didn't drop him on friday and he only gained 11 seconds on him today: facts. And i don't remember Samu working his *** off for Gilbert the first two weeks

PS: 1/ Samu left the others when Vanenderts gap was 32 seconds. I don't know where you get those 20 seconds from. And he didn't gain a second after the team radio warned Vanendert he was coming.
2/ If Samu was stronger on thursday, he surely wasn't going to wait for someone to slow him down in order to "share the work".

 

[Spine Concept]

it would be a shame tho, if mollema, gesink and kruijswijk all did the tour.

Would much rather see one of them give the giro a serious go. In fact I'd like to see kruijswijk have one more go.

Wandering if slagter will get another go at the vuelta after his early exit at the giro.

I am excited to see wilco's level in the WT races tho.

I agree that the three of them shouldn't do the Tour simultaneously, though I would love for Kruijswijk to give the tour a go. He already contested two Giro's, I feel he has more than deserved a spot on the Tour squad. Let Mollema and Slagter do the Giro and/or the Vuelta. I'm very intrigued at Wilco's performances as well next year.

 

[Timmy-loves-Rabo]

I agree that the three of them shouldn't do the Tour simultaneously, though I would love for Kruijswijk to give the tour a go. He already contested two Giro's, I feel he has more than deserved a spot on the Tour squad. Let Mollema and Slagter do the Giro and/or the Vuelta. I'm very intrigued at Wilco's performances as well next year.

Personally i'd love to see Gesink if the tour a miss and do the giro/vuelta
But it will not happen. Tour is main priority for rabo, and I fear they would just make kruijswijk ride as support for gesink.

Hopefully next year we get an earlier MTF to take some of the nerves away.

 

[The Hitch]

Personally i'd love to see Gesink if the tour a miss and do the giro/vuelta
But it will not happen. Tour is main priority for rabo, and I fear they would just make kruijswijk ride as support for gesink.

Hopefully next year we get an earlier MTF to take some of the nerves away.

He doesnt have to give the Tour a miss.

He could, if he thinks the Giro field is beatable, just ride the Giro, win that and ride the Tour as "the Giro winner" which gets him a lot of attention without having to actually compete.

Then with a grand tour under his belt, go full out for the Tour as a big favourite the year after.

Its what the winners of the 09 and 10 Giros did and Gesinks way younger than both.

Unfortunately for him, Samu looks like hell do the giro next year. Might have to wait till 2013 for a beatable field

 

[Timmy-loves-Rabo]

He doesnt have to give the Tour a miss.

He could, if he thinks the Giro field is beatable, just ride the Giro, win that and ride the Tour as "the Giro winner" which gets him a lot of attention without having to actually compete.

Then with a grand tour under his belt, go full out for the Tour as a big favourite the year after.

Its what the winners of the 09 and 10 Giros did and Gesinks way younger than both.

Unfortunately for him, Samu looks like hell do the giro next year. Might have to wait till 2013 for a beatable field

I think the problem is tho in Holland the Tour is the only thing that matters. And the giro is not really a big a deal. In terms of the sponsor I am not so sure how happy the team would be with Gesink riding tiredly around France again.

Keep in mind Basso is Italian on an italian team, and AC is alreasy proven in the GT world.

 

[taiwan]

Watching both mountain stages, i'm sorry, but i would have no issue claiming JVDB would actually have been one of the main contenders for the WIN, yes, you read that right. Seriously, what a pathetic sight the "favorites" turned out to be. Hell, if Vanendert didn't work his *** off for Gilbert the first half of the tour, he'd actually have a shot at winning this. This has to be very sour for JVDB.

Admittedly, Vanendert's performance so far does raise questions about what Van den Broeck could have done, but talking about him winning outright is premature. After all, he never has contended for the win before, and he hasn't shown more than others this year either, although his season's been solid. Also, the favourites are riding defensively because they're thinking of the Alps and each other. Vanenderts freedom makes him look stronger by comparison. JVDB would be marked even if he felt he could afford to attack. We should see Sanchez being controlled more now that he's shown his hand a little.

It shouldn't be too controversial to say that Vanendert himself could never have won the Tour.

Great argumentation. What you're giving are opinions, which is subjective, whilst I have given you facts... Good riddance.

I'm stupid. Maybe you can explain the difference to me?

 

[Barrus]

I think the problem is tho in Holland the Tour is the only thing that matters. And the giro is not really a big a deal. In terms of the sponsor I am not so sure how happy the team would be with Gesink riding tiredly around France again.

Keep in mind Basso is Italian on an italian team, and AC is alreasy proven in the GT world.

About this it was quite interesting to see the amount of publications that suddenly did make a big deal about the Giro when Weening won a stage and got the pink jersey or when Kruijswijk was able to keep up with the best in the mountains. I think when Dutch riders do well in the Giro (not necessarily the Vuelta) the giro will become a big deal.

 

[Spine Concept]

I'm stupid. Maybe you can explain the difference to me?

Nope, I already told you, I'm not wasting my time with you anymore. If you really don't know the difference between objectivity and subjectivity than I don't even know why I'm still talking to you - even if you're being sarcastic about it. I hope you do know about the term ''google it'', you ought to check it out. For the time being though, let's just leave it at the first sentence of your post. Can we get back on topic now? This is getting tedious.

 

[Spine Concept]

I'm stupid. Maybe you can explain the difference to me?

I already told you, I’m not wasting my time with you anymore. Get it through your thick skull. Go annoy someone else with your petty sarcasm, I’m sure you’re good at that. Let's just leave it at the first sentence of your post. Can we get back on topic now? This is getting tedious.

 

[Spine Concept]

About this it was quite interesting to see the amount of publications that suddenly did make a big deal about the Giro when Weening won a stage and got the pink jersey or when Kruijswijk was able to keep up with the best in the mountains. I think when Dutch riders do well in the Giro (not necessarily the Vuelta) the giro will become a big deal.

I agree, but it will never be as big a deal as the Tour me thinks. The reactions would have been tenfold had he demonstrated that feat at the Tour. They will always talk about the charm of the Tour, and how it always has that bit of extra value. They all (the cyclists) strive to ride the Tour from the get-go, the popularity is undeniable but the fixation is a bit annoying albeit understandable. Many choose to forgo opportunities to get better results in another GT just to figure in the Tour.

 

[The Hitch]

I think the problem is tho in Holland the Tour is the only thing that matters. And the giro is not really a big a deal. In terms of the sponsor I am not so sure how happy the team would be with Gesink riding tiredly around France again.

Keep in mind Basso is Italian on an italian team, and AC is alreasy proven in the GT world.

I know that the Giro doesnt mean as much to the Dutch, but if hes the Giro champ, he goes in claiming to go for GC, wins a stage or maybe KOM and the Dutch press can say that he was tired and that next year hes going fully for Le Tour and build that up for a year.

Also the other example (09 Giro) was Menchov not AC

I know hes not Dutch, but what team was he on?

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Admittedly, Vanendert's performance so far does raise questions about what Van den Broeck could have done, but talking about him winning outright is premature. After all, he never has contended for the win before, and he hasn't shown more than others this year either, although his season's been solid. Also, the favourites are riding defensively because they're thinking of the Alps and each other. Vanenderts freedom makes him look stronger by comparison. JVDB would be marked even if he felt he could afford to attack. We should see Sanchez being controlled more now that he's shown his hand a little.

It shouldn't be too controversial to say that Vanendert himself could never have won the Tour.

Of course Vanendert couldn't win the tour even if he hadn't worked for Gilbert. He can't timetrial. He also has to prove himself in the Alps. Obviously i was just trying to get a point across and not claiming he could win the tour. Do note that he solo'd for 7 km and Sanchez for 3, yet the latter only gained a handful of seconds. Sure they "let" him go, but if a podium contender doesn't close the gap, it makes you think.

As for JVDB, i don't agree. He was a contender for the podium clearly (Even last year, the difference wasn't that huge). Of course we'll never know so there's no way of telling. But if you see that the all the podium candidates can't drop each other, i don't see how they would have dropped JVDB, making him "one of the" main contenders for the win.

 

[Dekker_Tifosi]

But by saying that, Gesink could have claimed he could have won the Tour, but he doesn't

Because in the Dauphine he was better on the Allevard (or at least equal) and after that he claimed he got better.

So basically all of this is hypothetical bs which helps no one. They fell, they don't contend. End of.

 

[taiwan]

Of course Vanendert couldn't win the tour even if he hadn't worked for Gilbert. He can't timetrial. He also has to prove himself in the Alps. Obviously i was just trying to get a point across and not claiming he could win the tour. Do note that he solo'd for 7 km and Sanchez for 3, yet the latter only gained a handful of seconds. Sure they "let" him go, but if a podium contender doesn't close the gap, it makes you think.

Yes.

As for JVDB, i don't agree. He was a contender for the podium clearly (Even last year, the difference wasn't that huge). Of course we'll never know so there's no way of telling. But if you see that the all the podium candidates can't drop each other, i don't see how they would have dropped JVDB, making him "one of the" main contenders for the win.

It's just a jump to say that he could have been at the level of Andy Schleck (+ Contador if he recovers) in order to go for the win, I feel.

Yup, in any case we won't know now. We can agree that the race is poorer for losing all the GC riders who crashed out. These MTFs would have been that much more entertaining and decisive with more opportunists around.

 

[taiwan]

Well, you managed to miss the point. Believe it or not he could have done better, he has that much potential. Especially this year after he displayed his improved time trial abilities. Delahaye said himself that Gesink could have won the T-A had he not struggled psychologically during the course of the race. It was evident through his climbing, which was below par to say the least. Furthermore, he might have done better in those races, but he sucked hard in the (semi-) classics. If you want to continue this discussion I suggest we take it to the corresponding thread before we get reprimanded for hijacking another thread with Gesink jibber jabber.

Well you said " he's not the same/not up to his usual standards/based on early season results", but by objective measure his season so far has been better overall. If the point which I missed is that his family issue is affecting him psychologically, then it's still not affecting the level of his racing generally. Is that all you were saying-that his head issues haven't made him any worse? Reposted in the appropriate thread.

 

[Spine Concept]

Well you said " he's not the same/not up to his usual standards/based on early season results", but by objective measure his season so far has been better overall. If the point which I missed is that his family issue is affecting him psychologically, then it's still not affecting the level of his racing generally. Is that all you were saying-that his head issues haven't made him any worse? Reposted in the appropriate thread.

He is not up to his normal standards had you been following him closely this year, which by the look of things, you haven't. Otherwise you would have seen how much certain aspects of his riding have seemingly suffered. He might have done better in certain races, however, it was not as a result of his strong suit. He put in some great time trialing which got him on the podium of both the T-A and the PV. However, the fact of the matter is that he is struggling mentally, I thought that was pretty clear by now, results aside. This means that he can do better, which is why as opposed to last year his objective was a podium spot at the Tour this year. I have no doubt in my mind that he has the capability, but it wasn't going to be this year in my honest opinion, especially not after his crash. Aside from the Dauphine he hasn't shown the legs climbing-wise of the Gesink prior to the unfortunate occurrence by the end of last season. That's all I'm saying. An opinion based on observations.

 

[taiwan]

He is not up to his normal standards had you been following him closely this year, which by the look of things, you haven't. Otherwise you would have seen how much certain aspects of his riding have suffered. He might have done better in certain races, however, it was not as a result of his strong suit. He put in some great time trialing which got him on the podium of both the T-A and the PV. However, the fact of the matter is that he is struggling mentally, I thought that was pretty clear by now, results aside. This means that he can do better, which is why as opposed to last year his objective was a podium spot at the Tour this year. I have no doubt in my mind that he has the capability, but it wasn't going to be this year in my honest opinion. Aside from the Dauphine he hasn't shown the legs climbing-wise of the Gesink prior to the unfortunate occurrence by the end of last season. That's all I'm saying. An opinion based on observations.

TBH climbing-wise he did enough (comparable to the previous year) in two stage races that particularly favour punchy climbers, and his TTing improved dramatically, resulting in an overall improvement in his placings. I'm sure his father's death has affected him deeply, but it hasn't caused a downturn in the ability as a stage racer which got him 6th at the last Tour. What he could have done this season under different circumstances is a subjective judgement, fair enough. It's just that there are no indications that he would not have performed at at least the same level as last year's Tour. However, the third podium spot is a busy one.

 

[Spine Concept]

TBH climbing-wise he did enough (comparable to the previous year) in two stage races that particularly favour punchy climbers, and his TTing improved dramatically, resulting in an overall improvement in his placings. I'm sure his father's death has affected him deeply, but it hasn't caused a downturn in the ability as a stage racer which got him 6th at the last Tour. What he could have done this season under different circumstances is a subjective judgement, fair enough. It's just that there are no indications that he would not have performed at at least the same level as last year's Tour. However, the third podium spot is a busy one.

It is indeed a subjective judgement, however, some objectivity can be derived from the performances he put in climbing-wise. It is evident that his climbing was not up to par in the aforementioned stage races, there's no going around that. Doing just enough is not part of Gesink's character, he's a well-known perfectionist. Thus, I hardly doubt he would have been satisfied with his climbing in particular, the end results are a different matter. He is indeed not a punchy climber, but not to the extent of this year. He used to do better on these climbs. Which means he is capable. There are many plausible explanations for this, however, mentality is certainly a part of it in my opinion - and as Delahaye pointed out. Out climbing certain favorites at the Dauphine whilst being of no threat to the race winning candidates is not exactly a solid indication of his level. The combination of all these factors is enough for me to make that judgement. It does not have to be true for everyone though.