Tour Match Up: Gesink v Van Den Broeck

[Logic-is-your-friend]

But by saying that, Gesink could have claimed he could have won the Tour, but he doesn't

Because in the Dauphine he was better on the Allevard (or at least equal) and after that he claimed he got better.

So basically all of this is hypothetical bs which helps no one. They fell, they don't contend. End of.

But of course. But it does keep the fun into it. And here may come some biased favoritism so be prepared: Gesink never gave me the impression during the Dauphiné or the first week of the tour, to be at the same level of JVDB. It's in small details, but this is the way i feel. Other than that, Gesink only performed 2 days during the Dauphiné while JVDB wasn't exactly riding conservatively the entire week. So it would only be logical that Gesink was more fresh in those stages. But, indeed, we'll never know. I'm sure Gesink in top shape would also be reconned with for the top spots.

Yes.It's just a jump to say that he could have been at the level of Andy Schleck (+ Contador if he recovers) in order to go for the win, I feel.

Well... we'll see in a couple of days. But so far i haven't seen anything that would have been a problem for JVDB to match.

 

[Dekker_Tifosi]

Anyway it is kinda sad to see him continue like this. Every mountainous stage he finishes minutes down in around 70-80th place...

I still don't see the sense of it. Do they really believe Gesink can magically find good legs in the Alps?
Plus he's not a breakaway type of rider. Most of the time he has trouble in the beginning of the stages because he is a diesel. He is very much like Basso, I said so before.

Even if he gets into the right break the critics will only be greater if he doesn't win.
Sometimes I think Gesink wishes he was from the Czech republic and was called Kreuziger. He can try and fail as many times as he wishes, it's not as Czech people care

 

[Alberto Attack]

Wow i had forgot that gesink was still in the tour.

 

[Spine Concept]

Wow i had forgot that gesink was still in the tour.

Meh, what's the difference.

 

[Timmy-loves-Rabo]

Wow i had forgot that gesink was still in the tour.

excellent cntribution.

Anyway Gesink himself said if he feels like he did in the pyrenees he would have no chance in the alps.

In regards to the whole gesink injured or simply bad form, were probably never gonna know forsure. I'm certain the injuries ruined any chances he had.
WHo knows if he would have had the form or not.

I am hoping he can recover and maybe pick up a win in the autumn, for his confidence more then anything else. I just hope next season will be kinder to him.

 

[taiwan]

It is indeed a subjective judgement, however, some objectivity can be derived from the performances he put in climbing-wise. It is evident that his climbing was not up to par in the aforementioned stage races, there's no going around that. Doing just enough is not part of Gesink's character, he's a well-known perfectionist. Thus, I hardly doubt he would have been satisfied with his climbing in particular, the end results are a different matter. He is indeed not a punchy climber, but not to the extent of this year. He used to do better on these climbs. Which means he is capable. There are many plausible explanations for this, however, mentality is certainly a part of it in my opinion - and as Delahaye pointed out. Out climbing certain favorites at the Dauphine whilst being of no threat to the race winning candidates is not exactly a solid indication of his level. The combination of all these factors is enough for me to make that judgement. It does not have to be true for everyone though.

"Evident" you say. Great, lets see the evidence.

His climbing's been fine. In the Dauphinee too, as you mention.

 

[Spine Concept]

"Evident" you say. Great, lets see the evidence.

His climbing's been fine. In the Dauphinee too, as you mention.

He said it himself in a post-race interview at the Tirreno. I will dig it up for you though I doubt you understand Dutch. Do you really think I would just pluck this out of thin air? I'm not that type of poster. Aside from that it is practically common knowledge that his climbing has been below par this year, you obviously do not follow Gesink closely enough. Anyone else on this forum will tell you that, heck their have been countless frustrations expressed about that very fact in this thread. You can look them up for yourself. The Dauphine was good no doubt, but how good when you consider the fact that he wasn't really a threat to the GC candidates. C'mon man, you're either blind or in denial to manage overlooking this.

 

[taiwan]

He said it himself in a post-race interview at the Tirreno. I will dig it up for you though I doubt you understand Dutch. Do you really think I would just pluck this out of thin air? I'm not that type of poster. Aside from that it is practically common knowledge that his climbing has been below par this year, you obviously do not follow Gesink closely enough. Anyone else on this forum will tell you that, heck their have been countless frustrations expressed about that very fact in this thread. You can look them up for yourself. The Dauphine was good no doubt, but how good when you consider the fact that he wasn't really a threat to the GC candidates. C'mon man, you're either blind or in denial to manage overlooking this.

Well yeah, just link the article and/or point to the climbs where he was significantly off the pace.

 

[Timmy-loves-Rabo]

Gesink has not been climbing as well as previous years, he is right.
At teh Dauphinee he wasn't superb, but to be fair he hadn't really trained hard much. He was hoping to peak at le tour.

At ta he had massive motivational issues and wanted to quit.
Between that race and Basque he didn't ride his bike apparently. Wasn't great there either.

edit: thanks spine

 

[Spine Concept]

Well yeah, just link the article and/or point to the climbs where he was significantly off the pace.

I will, though it might be for tomorrow since it's really late here and I'm tired. I won't point to the climbs he was off the pace. I will just link the interview. Gesink's own opinion ought to be enough to convince right? If you don't believe the man himself than you're truly in denial. You make it seem like I'm saying he sucked though, which couldn't be further from the truth. He was below par, not as well as last year. Which by Gesink's standards is still really good. Thus, for fututre reference please do not get it twisted.

 

[Spine Concept]

Gesink has being climbing as well as previous years, he is right.
At teh Dauphinee he wasn't superb, but to be fair he hadn't really trained hard much. He was hoping to peak at le tour.

At ta he had massive motivational issues and wanted to quit.
Between that race and Basque he didn't ride his bike apparently. Wasn't great there either.

Has not, you mean? If so, this is the first proof taiwan. By tomorrow there will be more. Like I said, a well known fact this year. Can't be in denial for much longer.

 

[Spine Concept]

Well yeah, just link the article and/or point to the climbs where he was significantly off the pace.

Here is a nice post by D_T which includes a link to an interesting article where, as D_T points out, Delahaye says that Gesink would have won the Tirreno had he been mentally fit. Thus, it proves everything I have told you about his mentality having at least some effect on his performances this year. It was obviously not his time trial, cause that was what got him on the podium, which leaves us with his climbing. Admittedly, hes not a punchy climber, but like I said he was never as bad as this year in my opinion. Again, I am not saying that he sucked, which ought to be obvious with his podium spots at the TA and the PV, but his climbing was definitely below par. I will still look up the video though this and other opinions echoing this fact ought to be enough.

http://twitpic.com/5ik3ag/full

Nice part about Gesink in the upcoming Tour, and how he and Rabo-trainer Delahaye are busy with numbers (wattage, heartrate etc) for years already.

Interesting bits:
-Gesink was a mental wreck in the Tirreno because of memories of his father, still finished 2nd. Delahaye said Gesink would've won that one easily if he was mentally ok.

-In the Dauphine the time trial went at 400W, according to Gesink he can do 30w better in the Tour the France

-Before the Dauphine, in the Sierra Nevada Gesink never trained above a heartrate of 165. The intense training was kept for after the Dauphine in St. Moritz.

-In 2008 Delahaye made a long-term plan for Gesink which they are still following, up till now he is still on the 'fastest' schedule, which would mean tour podium in 2011. Even though he had plenty of unaccounted-for bad luck

 

[taiwan]

He hasn't been losing time on climbs, and his results have improved overall via his better TT. Where's the dip? His motivational issues haven't adversely affected the standard of his riding, it seems.

[edit] reading preceeding post now.

 

[Spine Concept]

He hasn't been losing time on climbs, and his results have improved overall via his better TT. Where's the dip? His motivational issues haven't adversely affected the standard of his riding, it seems.

[edit] reading preceeding post now.

You are simply wrong, probably misinformed and therefore mislead by results. Not everything is black and white. Then again, not everyone follows Gesink as closely as the regular posters in here. You see it is obvious that some of the results are better this year, but they could have been even better had he climbed like we all know he can. Furthermore, he has been better at some but worse at others. The Fleche Wallone is a case in point, he did so much better before, even as a neo pro. If other poster's opinions and the article does not convince you than I do not know what will. I'd conclude that you're in denial, cause it's not even a question if it has affected him, but to what extent it has affected him. The former is pretty much a fact. Keep in mind that this also includes his training scheme which has not been as extensive during the winter due to the fact that he took the whole funeral proceedings and everything concerning that upon himself. That meant that his base fitness level at the beginning of the season was not what it normally is every year. The pundits are suggesting that he had to compensate for the missed training and could have over trained. In other words, it hasn't been Gesink's year. I do believe in him, next year he will be back strong I'm certain. I will always be a fan of his, despite the heartaches during GT's.

 

[Bala Verde]

http://www.robertgesink.nl/column/artikel/hoop-voor-de-alpen/8022dd3bd01dec4e21b87fd9fd56ba4f/53/

Although he doesn't really know where he is physically, it seems as if he has pulled himself up by the bootstraps. That's good progress I'd say.

 

[Timmy-loves-Rabo]

appears to be somewhat dissapointed with himself and/or embarrased?

I really hope he can come back next year and prove to the doubters he is real GT contendor.

@Taiwan
Gesink despite the results hasn't been great this year, I dunno if you watched the races but he was below par. It was commented and discussed at full during all those races.

 

[taiwan]

You are simply wrong, probably misinformed and therefore mislead by results. Not everything is black and white. Then again, not everyone follows Gesink as closely as the regular posters in here. You see it is obvious that some of the results are better this year, but they could have been even better had he climbed like we all know he can. Furthermore, he has been better at some but worse at others. The Fleche Wallone is a case in point, he did so much better before, even as a neo pro. If other poster's opinions and the article does not convince you than I do not know what will. I'd conclude that you're in denial, cause it's not even a question if it has affected him, but to what extent it has affected him. The former is pretty much a fact. Keep in mind that this also includes his training scheme which has not been as extensive during the winter due to the fact that he took the whole funeral proceedings and everything concerning that upon himself. That meant that his base fitness level at the beginning of the season was not what it normally is every year. The pundits are suggesting that he had to compensate for the missed training and could have over trained. In other words, it hasn't been Gesink's year. I do believe in him, next year he will be back strong I'm certain. I will always be a fan of his, despite the heartaches during GT's.

Which of my statments is wrong? He's been climbing with the elite all year. Nothing would indicate that he couldn't ride a good Tour. Weren't you the one arguing that he could podium anyhow, which was his objective?

 

[Spine Concept]

Which of my statments is wrong? He's been climbing with the elite all year. Nothing would indicate that he couldn't ride a good Tour. Weren't you the one arguing that he could podium anyhow, which was his objective?

Are you kidding me? You've been fighting me the whole way that his mentality has had no effect on his performance this year. I gave you proof that it did. Maybe it hasn't affected him at every race but in some of them to a certain extent it certainly did. I think that means you were wrong, no? Do you have issues with being wrong sometimes? Are you really self-righteous like that? His climbing in particular has suffered if you have been following him closely. There is a difference between climbing with the elite and barely hanging on which is what he did at the País Vasco for example. Last year he was duking it out with Horner and Sanchez on the mountains and this year he could barely hang on at times. You are in some serious denial, it's quite amusing though.

Anyway, I never said that he wouldn't be able to ride a good Tour, Gesink can still contest a stage race properly without necessarily being 100%. He proved that at the Vuelta when he crashed there in 09 and still managed to get 6th. Last year he was also riding the Tour with a fracture in his arm.
Now you are putting words in my mouth. I told you that because of his steady progress over the years his objectives have been upped a level this year. Which is obvious one would think after last year's 6th spot. He certainly has the potential to podium at the Tour. Give it a rest, this is getting ridiculous.

If you don't want to believe me - which is quite ridiclous after the amount of arguments I have brought forth - than believe Timmy. You are really making this a bigger deal than it needs to be. I have to reiterate that I am not implying he sucked all year bar the (semi-)classics. He just hasn't been at his normal level of climbing this year.

@Taiwan
Gesink despite the results hasn't been great this year, I dunno if you watched the races but he was below par. It was commented and discussed at full during all those races.

 

[Spine Concept]

http://www.robertgesink.nl/column/artikel/hoop-voor-de-alpen/8022dd3bd01dec4e21b87fd9fd56ba4f/53/

Although he doesn't really know where he is physically, it seems as if he has pulled himself up by the bootstraps. That's good progress I'd say.

appears to be somewhat dissapointed with himself and/or embarrased?

I really hope he can come back next year and prove to the doubters he is real GT contendor.

@Taiwan
Gesink despite the results hasn't been great this year, I dunno if you watched the races but he was below par. It was commented and discussed at full during all those races.

With the way he has been criticized by pundits of late, I wouldn't be surprised if he's disappointed and downright angry. Especially when a football pundit criticizes you on national television (tour du jour). His reaction was predictable albeit true ''I'd like to see you crash at 70km/h and continue riding'', Gesink reacted, clearly aggravated. I have no doubt in my mind that Gesink will be back next year and stronger than ever. I know he has it in him, just not this year - at least not yet.

As far as the article goes, it was an interesting read. It's nice to see the inner-workings of a failed GC aspiring candidate. Poor guy. I really hope he can win a stage in the Alps, he looks like he needs it. A completely failed GT is the last thing he needs right now. It's interesting he mentions that he never doubted exiting the tour since his post-race comments after the first mountain stage seems to have indicated differently. Albeit he might have just reacted impulsively out of emotions which is understandable. However, he did doubt at that point. We all thought he would quit after those comments, but he didn't, to our surprise.

 

[taiwan]

Are you kidding me? You've been fighting me the whole way that his mentality has had no effect on his performance this year. I gave you proof that it did. Maybe it hasn't affected him at every race but in some of them to a certain extent it certainly did. I think that means you were wrong, no? Do you have issues with being wrong sometimes? Are you really self-righteous like that? His climbing in particular has suffered if you have been following him closely. There is a difference between climbing with the elite and barely hanging on which is what he did at the País Vasco for example. Last year he was duking it out with Horner and Sanchez on the mountains and this year he could barely hang on at times. You are in some serious denial, it's quite amusing though.

Anyway, I never said that he wouldn't be able to ride a good Tour, Gesink can still contest a stage race properly without necessarily being 100%. He proved that at the Vuelta when he crashed there in 09 and still managed to get 6th. Last year he was also riding the Tour with a fracture in his arm.
Now you are putting words in my mouth. I told you that because of his steady progress over the years his objectives have been upped a level this year. Which is obvious one would think after last year's 6th spot. He certainly has the potential to podium at the Tour. Give it a rest, this is getting ridiculous.

If you don't want to believe me - which is quite ridiclous after the amount of arguments I have brought forth - than believe Timmy. You are really making this a bigger deal than it needs to be. I have to reiterate that I am not implying he sucked all year bar the (semi-)classics. He just hasn't been at his normal level of climbing this year.

If he was on track to achieve his objective of a Tour podium, cimbing with the same people and generally his season was slightly better, you're talking about differences so subtle that they are meaningless, not a handicap. He's never had a better early season. If nothing less than a win in every race will do, you'll need to have excuses ready I suppose. The only arguments I register so far are that he was 14th at FW and his trainer thinks he should have won TA.

Down to ad hominems already?

 

[Spine Concept]

If he was on track to achieve his objective of aTour podium, cimbing with the same people and generally his season was slightly better, you're talking about differences so subtle that they are meaningless, not a handicap. He's never had a better early season. If nothing less than a win in every race will do, you'll need to have excuses ready I suppose. The only arguments I register so far are that he was 14th at FW and his trainer thinks he should have won TA.

Down to ad hominems already?

Mate, you will always see things the way you want to see them. No matter what I say you will remain adamant on your views, which is fine because it is your prerogative. It's borderline *** though when other posters here are trying to get the same thing through your thick skull but you still choose to play the role of a bigot. I already told you that not everything is black and white with Gesink this year. Furthermore, I never said that his climbing regressed immensely, but that he hasn't been climbing like his usual self. He does not normally have to work so hard just to hang on with the favorites. That's what he did, especially at the Pais Vasco which you have chosen to overlook, unsurprisingly. Nice try though. Dilute the facts all you want, doesn't make you any more right than you are now. I used some popular examples to try and illustrate my point which you have chosen to belittle in order to satisfy your ridiculous need to be right. It's hard not to resort to ad hominems when dealing with posters of your kind, my apologies if I hurt your feelings, didn't know you were the sensitive kind. Nor did I know that calling someone self-righteous was an offense of that magnitude. I see you're gonna try and play the victim card with me now.

How about we just agree to disagree on this one to avoid a pointless perpectual back and forth. This is getting us nowhere and is a waste of my time to be honest. I gave you the facts and my views on them, what you do with them is for you to decide.

 

[Bala Verde]

With the way he has been criticized by pundits of late, I wouldn't be surprised if he's disappointed and downright angry. Especially when a football pundit criticizes you on national television (tour du jour). His reaction was predictable albeit true ''I'd like to see you crash at 70km/h and continue riding'', Gesink reacted, clearly aggravated. I have no doubt in my mind that Gesink will be back next year and stronger than ever. I know he has it in him, just not this year - at least not yet.

what happened?

I only heard Mart-uitgezakte-reet-Smeets say he doesn't have grinta... (Mart is so great; he is a real generalist, he can 'easily' report on speed skating, move on to soccer and then cycling again, without even following the season; He is so good he always knows everything, he even thinks he knows better than Wuyts who reports on cycling throughout the season, while his preparation merely consists of cheese and wine and a flash card. His 'live and unprepared' comments on a race summary are painful and his interview techniques offensive.) /Rant

 

[Dekker_Tifosi]

Johan Derksen happened.

 

[Spine Concept]

what happened?

I only heard Mart-uitgezakte-reet-Smeets say he doesn't have grinta... (Mart is so great; he is a real generalist, he can 'easily' report on speed skating, move on to soccer and then cycling again, without even following the season; He is so good he always knows everything, he even thinks he knows better than Wuyts who reports on cycling throughout the season, while his preparation merely consists of cheese and wine and a flash card. His 'live and unprepared' comments on a race summary are painful and his interview techniques offensive.) /Rant

Johan Derksen happened.

Indeed. He called Gesink a wimp on the daily cycling tv show ''Tour Du Jour'' and basically denigrated Dutch cycling in general. Gesink replied that he thought Derksen was a wimp himself and that he ought to hit the deck at 70km/h to see how it feels like. Derksen resumed by saying that Gesink cannot deal properly with criticism and called him a 2nd rate cyclist.

 

[Dekker_Tifosi]

But Derksen is full of bs. He said that the Dutch riders are nowhere on international level which is ofcourse total bs.

AS if they haven't done anything the last few years? Derksen only follows the Tour and has no idea what he is saying.