Tour Match Up: Gesink v Van Den Broeck

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Who will finish higher in the Tour de France?

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Jan 11, 2010
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Logic-is-your-friend said:
As for Gesink, he's been up there with JvdB in this TDF on all the short steep climbs so far. Usually finished in front. Also, wasn't it his ambition to do well in AGR and LBL? How would you explain that for a rider who needs long climbs and suffers the first K's?
When a race is sufficiently hard you'll find him at the front on these climbs, but not because he's so super explosive.

He's only been really good in the AGR once, and never in LBL... which would suggest that maybe these races don't suit him so much.
 
May 12, 2010
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Logic-is-your-friend said:
In the 2010 TDF Van den Broeck suffered most from both rest days, as usual. Madeleine and Tourmalet just happened to be in the stages right after the rest days.
What do you mean 'as usual'. Are there any results that show that this is common for him, outside of the 2010 Tour, that also had some of the longer more difficult climbs after a rest day.
 
May 31, 2011
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theyoungest said:
When a race is sufficiently hard you'll find him at the front on these climbs, but not because he's so super explosive.

He's only been really good in the AGR once, and never in LBL... which would suggest that maybe these races don't suit him so much.
I agree. Hence I think that if for instance Wiggins decides to let his men set a really high pace the entire climb, Gesink could be one of the last few remaining with the group and maybe even attack. If the pace toward the climb is low and they just 'explode', then yes he might struggle.

Knowing this, it would be wise to even set that pace yourself as a team if no-one does it. Too bad for Rabobank Sanchez is of no use atm.
 
May 28, 2012
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Azabael said:
I agree. Hence I think that if for instance Wiggins decides to let his men set a really high pace the entire climb, Gesink could be one of the last few remaining with the group and maybe even attack. If the pace toward the climb is low and they just 'explode', then yes he might struggle.

Knowing this, it would be wise to even set that pace yourself as a team if no-one does it. Too bad for Rabobank Sanchez is of no use atm.
It's still a question to me wheter a 'hard' race suits Gesink. When he was good in the AGR, there was still a 30-man group left. While in 2011 the race was very hard with only a few riders left after the Keutenberg, and he sat completely a bloc.

Gesinks strong moments in the race are when the other contenders don't want to make tempo. Then even Gesink, with crappy accelleration, can ride clear. When this doesn't happen, he'll have to ride them off his wheel 'Basso-style'. His main error over the past few years was that he didn't want to make pace, but I think he's realized that he can only win when the tempo doesn't change.

Van den Broeck has the advantage of having Vanendert on his side. Vanendert's attacks will mean JVDB can nicely follow the rest. But I'm not really convinced of his climbing ability since guys like Kiryienka and Weening could also follow him uphill.
 
May 31, 2011
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Pentacycle said:
It's still a question to me wheter a 'hard' race suits Gesink. When he was good in the AGR, there was still a 30-man group left. While in 2011 the race was very hard with only a few riders left after the Keutenberg, and he sat completely a bloc.

Gesinks strong moments in the race are when the other contenders don't want to make tempo. Then even Gesink, with crappy accelleration, can ride clear. When this doesn't happen, he'll have to ride them off his wheel 'Basso-style'.

Van den Broeck has the advantage of having Vanendert on his side. Vanendert's attacks will mean JVDB can nicely follow the rest. But I'm not really convinced of his climbing ability since guys like Kiryienka and Weening could also follow him uphill.
It's hard to bind conclusions to one's capabilities like that. There are too many factors in play. Like Focus on certain races, peaking, what some opponents want etc etc.

I rather have Mollema and Kruijswijk along my side in the mountains than Vanendert, don't know about you.
 
Jan 11, 2010
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Pentacycle said:
It's still a question to me wheter a 'hard' race suits Gesink. When he was good in the AGR, there was still a 30-man group left.
Did you watch the race? Gesink rode away from a group of 10 guys (a selection which he partly caused himself)

In 2011 he took a week off in his preparation, not the ideal leadup for the classics.
 
May 28, 2012
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Dekker_Tifosi said:
And Emilia, end of discussion wether Gesink needs a hard race :)
Ofc he needs a hard race, I was talking about when it gets too hard. In that case he'll still fail. Gesink can push the highest watts when he's fresh, not after 250 km's and a tough course. In the finale of for instance LBL he'll always fade away.

Emilia is a hard race for 40 kms, before the finale it's mostly flat however. It would surprise me if he'll ever make the top 5 in the Ardennes again, where racing is much more nervous and where there's a much more demanding course. Only the Fleche suits him really well.
 
He has never ridden LBL at 100% the past 4 years

in 2009 he went so deep in AGR he pulled a muscle (skipped FW and was weaker in LBL)
in 2010 he got a cold the week before AGR and never reached his top level
in 2011 he didn't train for a week after the Tirreno because of mental struggles and never reached a good level in the ardennes again
and in 2012 he was still trying to get to a decent level after breaking his leg in the winter.

So he has literally never ridden LBL in good shape
 
Jan 11, 2010
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Yeah, I'd like to see him do LBL in top form once. Although that might be a bit too much to ask from Delahaye ;)

Or just leave the Ardennes to Mollema.
 
Mar 25, 2011
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Dekker_Tifosi said:
He has never ridden LBL at 100% the past 4 years

in 2009 he went so deep in AGR he pulled a muscle (skipped FW and was weaker in LBL)
in 2010 he got a cold the week before AGR and never reached his top level
in 2011 he didn't train for a week after the Tirreno because of mental struggles and never reached a good level in the ardennes again
and in 2012 he was still trying to get to a decent level after breaking his leg in the winter.

So he has literally never ridden LBL in good shape
Not that this post is wrong, but if you aren't able to compete for 4 years in a row at your top level, then it's not only bad luck in my opinion. LBL just doesn't suit Gesink COMPLETELY, although that doesn't have to keep him from winning it once. But I'll never see it as something that is tailormade for Gesink.
 
Jan 11, 2010
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He doesn't say it's bad luck, he said Gesink had bad/not optimal form. Which is true.

You need to be at your best to compete in LBL, and Gesink never was at his best there.
 
Dec 30, 2011
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ilrumne said:
Not that this post is wrong, but if you aren't able to compete for 4 years in a row at your top level, then it's not only bad luck in my opinion. LBL just doesn't suit Gesink COMPLETELY, although that doesn't have to keep him from winning it once. But I'll never see it as something that is tailormade for Gesink.
True if LBL was Gesink's season objective or something which he has based his training specifically on building up to, but it is not.
 
Azabael said:
He's talking about this year's Dauphiné where they actually could follow him.
No, he's making a general statement. Judging by the Dauphiné, Weening could also follow Evans, Froome and Wiggins and actually dropped Nibali. Bull**** statement from a forum member who has shown to be clueless for the umpteenth time in less than a week.
 
May 31, 2011
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Logic-is-your-friend said:
No, he's making a general statement. Judging by the Dauphiné, Weening could also follow Evans, Froome and Wiggins and actually dropped Nibali. Bull**** statement from a forum member who has shown to be clueless for the umpteenth time in less than a week.
Well, I'm not sure if he meant that. On forums like these, there are frankly quite some misinterpretations. Though I haven't read his other 'dubious' posts. :)
 
Azabael said:
Well, I'm not sure if he meant that. On forums like these, there are frankly quite some misinterpretations. Though I haven't read his other 'dubious' posts. :)
Either it's a general statement and it's bull****.

Either it's about the Dauphiné and it's bull****. The fact that Weening etc were able to follow Van den Broeck has him doubting his climbing abilities... that would mean he also doubts the climbing abilities of Evans, Wiggins and Froome, as they were never able to drop Van den Broeck. Actually, they did drop Nibali, so by Pentacycle's logic, Nibali is a worse climber even than not only Evans, JVdB, Wiggins... but also Weening. And so would Menchov be, as he was also dropped in the Dauphiné.
 
May 31, 2011
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Timmy-loves-Rabo said:
wait what are you saying, weening is not a contendor?
Haha :D

And yes (how should I call you? logic?), that's true. As he didn't take into account who was preparing for a race and who wasn't. Both Kiryienka and Weening have already lost quite some time in this Tour, though we haven't seen any real mountains yet. But I don't expect them to be close to VDB2 and others. But perhaps Pentacycle himself could answer and perhaps enlighten you with his reasoning. Miracles even happen to non-believers. If he doesn't, you were probably right about him.
 
May 28, 2012
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Man, I didn't know that such a small statement would cause such anger :confused: Apparently some forum members are a bit touchy, and are prone to just disproving others' opinions instead of posting what they actually think themselves.

I already thought the Gesink vs JVdB discussion over the last 2 years was getting pretty awkward. It's become more and more clear to me that both Belgian and Dutch ppl don't approve negative comments about these riders. I'd really like to know if there's another pair of countries also doing this to their cyclists...

The mountains and the TT's will show what they're both capable of atm, that's it.
 
theyoungest said:
Please, let the mountains begin. Logic is getting a bit grumpy.
So, are you telling me you wouldn't respond to someone claiming Gesink's climbing ability is to be compared to that of some 3rd tier climber because in one or other prep race that rider happened to be able to suck his wheel? You?

Pentacycle said:
Paraphrased# What did I do?
You have been making BS statements about Belgian riders (Van den Broeck, Monfort, De Gendt) and Belgian people in general (Belgians should know about X because they whine alot about X and X a lot themselves). And you still haven't explained your reasoning behind your stupendous statement. So don't play innocent when called out about it.
 
May 31, 2011
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Logic-is-your-friend said:
So, are you telling me you wouldn't respond to someone claiming Gesink's climbing ability is to be compared to that of some 3rd tier climber because in one or other prep race that rider happened to be able to suck his wheel? You?
Imo, if that 3rd tier rider has the same season objective, then it would be worth mentioning and concerning, unless that rider stepped his game up. Else it's a very wrong comparison that shouldn't be made, which was indeed the case here in all honesty. The minutes that Kiryienka and Weening already lost in the Tour compared to VDB2 proves that.

But I think he meant you just seemed to have a very annoyed tone instantly, hehe.
 
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