Tour Match Up: Gesink v Van Den Broeck

[Dekker_Tifosi]

Someone getting a litlle scared? You have to make a big point about VDB being in much better conditions than Gesink so you can make yourself feel better about Gesink getting beaten by VDB in a tt.

scared lol

i couldn't be more certain

 

[Buffalo Soldier]

Still, VDB really needs to improve his TT-skills. He has the talents, was World Champion with U19...

 

[kurtinsc]

Really? Because I think consistency is Gesink's strong point.

Gesink is consistent throughout a season, but in an individual race there always seems to be at least one stage where he does something that just makes you scratch your head.

Last year in the Tour and TDS it was the ITT... but that hasnt' always been the problem. This year in TA it was extremely poor placing at the base of climbs, losing a lead from the TTT. He's messed up descents in a race or two to cost him wins.

VDB is a bit boring in that he tends to focus on one or two races. But in those races his "bad days" simply aren't as bad as what Gesink does when he messes up in a stage.

None of Gesink's mistakes seem to be the huge time loss type... more things that cost him a minute over the course of a race.

 

[Parrulo]

what really happened on that TdS? i couldn't properly follow the TdS due to exams last year but didn't gesink went into the final ITT in yellow and lost it to frankian schleckellara?

 

[Spine Concept]

Gesink is consistent throughout a season, but in an individual race there always seems to be at least one stage where he does something that just makes you scratch your head.

Last year in the Tour and TDS it was the ITT... but that hasnt' always been the problem. This year in TA it was extremely poor placing at the base of climbs, losing a lead from the TTT. He's messed up descents in a race or two to cost him wins.

VDB is a bit boring in that he tends to focus on one or two races. But in those races his "bad days" simply aren't as bad as what Gesink does when he messes up in a stage.

None of Gesink's mistakes seem to be the huge time loss type... more things that cost him a minute over the course of a race.

As I already mentioned, this year is the first since he was a neo pro that he hasn't really been consistent where he normally is - mostly climbing. The fact that we're discussing him losing races because of one bad day speaks for itself about his consistency.
No one said he wins consistently, though he has won a race like Emilia back to back. The point is that he is always right up there and he's still only 24, which means he has a lot of room to grow.

For his consistency you only need to take a glance at his palmarés. Than look at other 24-year olds' palmarés.

 

[El Pistolero]

With VDB starting in much better conditions than Gesink tho. Don't know what to make of it.

Still, last year TDF the difference was more than 2 minutes in the closing TT.
The gap is now not existing

Don't think you can use that TT as evidence for anything. Both were totally crappy and even below their own crappy par in that time trial.

 

[El Pistolero]

Still, VDB really needs to improve his TT-skills. He has the talents, was World Champion with U19...

He did a pretty good time trial today...

 

[Spine Concept]

Don't think you can use that TT as evidence for anything. Both were totally crappy and even below their own crappy par in that time trial.

He did a pretty good time trial today...

Kind of contradicting, no?

I do agree that nothing can really be taken out of this ITT except for the facts.

 

[El Pistolero]

Kind of contradicting, no?

I do agree that nothing can really be taken out of this ITT except for the facts.

First post you quoted was about tour tt last year.

 

[Spine Concept]

First post you quoted was about tour tt last year.

Ok. In that case I completely agree.

 

[kurtinsc]

As I already mentioned, this year is the first since he was a neo pro that he hasn't really been consistent where he normally is - mostly climbing. The fact that we're discussing him losing races because of one bad day speaks for itself about his consistency.
No one said he wins consistently, though he has won a race like Emilia back to back. The point is that he is always right up there and he's still only 24, which means he has a lot of room to grow.

For his consistency you only need to take a glance at his palmarés. Than look at other 24-year olds' palmarés.

Again, consistency over a season is different then consistency over a race.

VDB2 doesn't do much other then 1-2 races a year, similar to Armstrong back in his day or Andy Schleck today. But in those races he's consistent. He doesn't exactly wow you on many stages but he doesn't disappoint you either.

Gesink is different. Every race he seems to look like an equal to Contador at times... then throw up something well below par. In the end, his overall performance can be below someone like VDB2, despite showing much better in some stages.

Perhaps that won't happen in this year's tour. But it wasn't just the time trials last year where he showed that ability to make mistakes/underperform to wipe out an advantage he gained by overperforming in another stage. He's done it in the past with timid descents, poor time trials and poor placements on climbs.

He's got a higher ceiling then VDB2 does, no doubt. But he's more likely to make a boneheaded mistake as well.

 

[Spine Concept]

Again, consistency over a season is different then consistency over a race.

VDB2 doesn't do much other then 1-2 races a year, similar to Armstrong back in his day or Andy Schleck today. But in those races he's consistent. He doesn't exactly wow you on many stages but he doesn't disappoint you either.

Gesink is different. Every race he seems to look like an equal to Contador at times... then throw up something well below par. In the end, his overall performance can be below someone like VDB2, despite showing much better in some stages.

Perhaps that won't happen in this year's tour. But it wasn't just the time trials last year where he showed that ability to make mistakes/underperform to wipe out an advantage he gained by overperforming in another stage. He's done it in the past with timid descents, poor time trials and poor placements on climbs.

He's got a higher ceiling then VDB2 does, no doubt. But he's more likely to make a boneheaded mistake as well.

No offense but I simply disagree. I would go into the details but what it comes down to is the same thing I posted above. We just have different views on what consistency means.
Doing very well and then ''bottling it'' - which for Gesink means ending up in the top 5 instead of winning - due to a bad day or the lack of ability in a particular discipline does not constitute being inconsistent for me. It just means that he's consistent in getting good results but needs to grow a bit in a certain department to be a consistent winner, and that comes with experience (trial and error).
His ITT abilities are a case in point, this year both at the TA and the PV he ended up on the podium due to his ITT results whereas the last couple of years that was his pitfall. At 24, he has heaps of time to improve in other departments as well.

Hypothetically speaking, if he's in the top 5 at the Tour this year - like the uber consistent VDB2 last year - your argument would be moot. If you're 5th you're the embodiment of consistency but 6th you're suddenly inconsistent? Or 7th and 6th at the Vuelta? Add to that his palmarés vis-á-vis VDB2. Is that not consistency?

 

[FignonLeGrand]

Really? Because I think consistency is Gesink's strong point.

hhmm well VDB doesnt have much other than consistency, I wonder who will out consistent each other. Just seems to me Gesink has always conspired to lose too much time somewhere in a GT.

 

[FignonLeGrand]

No offense but I simply disagree. I would go into the details but what it comes down to is the same thing I posted above. We just have different views on what consistency means.
Doing very well and then ''bottling it'' - which for Gesink means ending up in the top 5 instead of winning - due to a bad day or the lack of ability in a particular discipline does not constitute being inconsistent for me. It just means that he's consistent in getting good results but needs to grow a bit in a certain department to be a consistent winner, and that comes with experience (trial and error).
His ITT abilities are a case in point, this year both at the TA and the PV he ended up on the podium due to his ITT results whereas the last couple of years that was his pitfall. At 24, he has heaps of time to improve in other departments as well.

Hypothetically speaking, if he's in the top 5 at the Tour this year - like the uber consistent VDB2 last year - your argument would be moot. If you're 5th you're the embodiment of consistency but 6th you're suddenly inconsistent? Or 7th and 6th at the Vuelta? Add to that his palmarés vis-á-vis VDB2. Is that not consistency?

Forget early season or training 5 day tours, when the chips are down Gesink hasn't done it yet. You truly believe he will be top 5 in this years Tour? He is only 24 but if not careful he will be overtaken by the next big thing and then be another VDB, lauded for winning nothing but coming in top 5s/10s not quite world beating is it.

 

[kurtinsc]

No offense but I simply disagree. I would go into the details but what it comes down to is the same thing I posted above. We just have different views on what consistency means.
Doing very well and then ''bottling it'' - which for Gesink means ending up in the top 5 instead of winning - due to a bad day or the lack of ability in a particular discipline does not constitute being inconsistent for me. It just means that he's consistent in getting good results but needs to grow a bit in a certain department to be a consistent winner, and that comes with experience (trial and error).
His ITT abilities are a case in point, this year both at the TA and the PV he ended up on the podium due to his ITT results whereas the last couple of years that was his pitfall. At 24, he has heaps of time to improve in other departments as well.

Hypothetically speaking, if he's in the top 5 at the Tour this year - like the uber consistent VDB2 last year - your argument would be moot. If you're 5th you're the embodiment of consistency but 6th you're suddenly inconsistent? Or 7th and 6th at the Vuelta? Add to that his palmarés vis-á-vis VDB2. Is that not consistency?

Okay... try this.

Let's say there's a 10 stage race.

Rider A finishes 5th on every stage.

Rider B finishes 1st on 5 stages, 30 seconds ahead of Rider A on each. He finishes 10th on 5 stages, 30 seconds behind rider A on each.

Both have the same time in the race, but Rider A was more consistent over the course of the race.


In that dumbed down example, Gesink is Rider B, VDB2 is Rider A. Gesink appears to have more talent because he looks incredible at times. But then he finds a way to lose that time... while VDB2 might look much less impressive but simply not make any mistakes and still finish faster overall.

Gesink, for whatever reason, often rides for several stages looking like a race winner or podium contender... then screws up and ends up 3-4 places lower then that. VDB2 seems to finish in the middle of the pack for top GC contenders... and somehow ends up ahead of Gesink. What do we call that attribute if not "consistency"? Ability to not screw up?

Gesink appears to be a better rider then VDB2. He looks to climb long climbs better, short climbs better, and other then last year looks about even in the TT's. But he finds a way to lose time he shouldn't in most races, despite appearing to be better overall. Whatever you want to call that tendency... that's Gesink's biggest issue in my opinion. I'll call that consistency.

 

[Spine Concept]

hhmm well VDB doesnt have much other than consistency, I wonder who will out consistent each other. Just seems to me Gesink has always conspired to lose too much time somewhere in a GT.

Forget early season or training 5 day tours, when the chips are down Gesink hasn't done it yet. You truly believe he will be top 5 in this years Tour? He is only 24 but if not careful he will be overtaken by the next big thing and then be another VDB, lauded for winning nothing but coming in top 5s/10s not quite world beating is it.

It is not beyond the realm of possibility for him to top 5 after he ended 6th last year now is it? He was top 10 in every GT he contested. If you want to underestimate Gesink and overlook his results that's your prerogative but do not think it will stick in an argument.
The only thing you are doing is speculating about his future, I can do the same for many other young riders in the peloton. Doesn't mean anything until proven differently.
Finally, you seem to be under the impression that I'm hyping Gesink to win the Tour. I was solely regarding his consistency, a little reading comprehension goes a long way. The fact that you brought it up though speaks heaps about his potential.

 

[Spine Concept]

Okay... try this.

Let's say there's a 10 stage race.

Rider A finishes 5th on every stage.

Rider B finishes 1st on 5 stages, 30 seconds ahead of Rider A on each. He finishes 10th on 5 stages, 30 seconds behind rider A on each.

Both have the same time in the race, but Rider A was more consistent over the course of the race.


In that dumbed down example, Gesink is Rider B, VDB2 is Rider A. Gesink appears to have more talent because he looks incredible at times. But then he finds a way to lose that time... while VDB2 might look much less impressive but simply not make any mistakes and still finish faster overall.

Gesink, for whatever reason, often rides for several stages looking like a race winner or podium contender... then screws up and ends up 3-4 places lower then that. VDB2 seems to finish in the middle of the pack for top GC contenders... and somehow ends up ahead of Gesink. What do we call that attribute if not "consistency"? Ability to not screw up?

Gesink appears to be a better rider then VDB2. He looks to climb long climbs better, short climbs better, and other then last year looks about even in the TT's. But he finds a way to lose time he shouldn't in most races, despite appearing to be better overall. Whatever you want to call that tendency... that's Gesink's biggest issue in my opinion. I'll call that consistency.

Mate, all of that was not necessary since you are adamant on your views and I quite simply do not share them. I can sit here and dumb down my view on things for you, however you still wouldn't agree with it. If Gesink is not consistent for you than I do not know what consistency is.
You can take isolated events and magnify them all you want to try and convince yourself about what you are saying but I simply do not agree. Thus let's agree to disagree, not need to stretch this out into a pointless back and forth.

 

[Spine Concept]

Try this...

In that dumbed down example, Gesink is Rider B, VDB2 is Rider A. Gesink appears to have more talent because he looks incredible at times. But then he finds a way to lose that time... while VDB2 might look much less impressive but simply not make any mistakes and still finish faster overall.

Wasn’t last year the first time VDB2 and Gesink contested a GT together? Please correct me if I’m wrong. Thus, you want to base your opinion on the conistency of one rider as opposed to another rider on one GT they contested together. If that’s the case you’d be getting way ahead of yourself.

Moreover, Gesink has been very unfortunate, however I do not tend to get into that since it comes over as coming up with excuses, but facts are facts. It so happens that at that Tour Gesink was riding with a tear in his (under) arm and (partly) due to that lost more than a minute to VDB2 in the cobblestoned stage 3. You can blame his bike handling skills for his injury, but that doesn't take away the fact that he was in pain during the course of that stage and would have probably done better under normal circumstances. Inconsistency to me is being inconsistent on the count of simply not being good enough. You can hardly use force majeure as an excuse to label someone inconsistent.

Gesink, for whatever reason, often rides for several stages looking like a race winner or podium contender... then screws up and ends up 3-4 places lower then that. VDB2 seems to finish in the middle of the pack for top GC contenders... and somehow ends up ahead of Gesink. What do we call that attribute if not "consistency"? Ability to not screw up?

You are under the flawed assumption that I do not think VDB is consistent in the races he chooses to peak for. Where did I say that? please quote. Are we or are we not discussing what consistency means to the both of us?
To me Gesink is consistent because he is always up there, regardless if he wins or ends up in the top 5 - due to an unfortunate situation or a lack in ability in whatever department. He is always there, that’s what makes him appealing to me as there’s always something to cheer about when he’s racing. That is consistency.

Gesink appears to be a better rider then VDB2. He looks to climb long climbs better, short climbs better, and other then last year looks about even in the TT's. But he finds a way to lose time he shouldn't in most races, despite appearing to be better overall. Whatever you want to call that tendency... that's Gesink's biggest issue in my opinion. I'll call that consistency.

Mate, it is quite obvious that you are adamant on your views and I quite simply do not share them. I can sit here and dumb down my view on things for you, however you still wouldn't agree with it. If Gesink is not consistent for you than I do not know what consistency is. What you call inconsistent I call unfortunate, force majeure, or a learning opportunity seized subsequently. That's why I mentioned his ITT; he has seen, through (bad) experience, that his ITT has been a stumbling block so he improved it. You see, it's not plain inability to do better with Gesink, which is what in the end characterizes an inconsistent rider to me. That is too black and white to define Gesink and his still young career up to this point.

Finally, contrary to popular belief Gesink is not a horrid descender. You can take isolated events and magnify them all you want to try and convince yourself about what you are saying but I simply do not agree. Thus let's agree to disagree, not need to stretch this out into a pointless back and forth.

 

[El Pistolero]

Contador won the Giro 2008 with the same fracture as Evans last year and he didn't even prepare for that Giro. No excuses sorry.

 

[Spine Concept]

Contador won the Giro 2008 with the same fracture as Evans last year and he didn't even prepare for that Giro. No excuses sorry.

Sigh. You again. How conveniently insightful of you. You're just mad I'm stating facts that belittle your precious VDB2 results against Gesink in your endless Belgian agenda to deprive anything Dutch. Pathetic. You can call it excuses all you want, however, you cannot and will not ever get around facts. Thanks for displaying your ignorance for all to see.

The Giro 2008 is not the 2010 Tour now is it? I'm talking about stage 3 in particular, was there a similar stage at the Giro? Did Contador have that same injury? Is Contador Gesink? It's all black and white to you, or should I say when it's convenient. I´m guessing you must know the EXACT amount of pain they both went through for making such an intelligent assessment.

Do you really want to talk about coming up with excuses using Contador as an example? That's hilarious and probably soon to be ironic. Let's not do this.
Can't wait to see what foolishness you come up with next.

 

[Parrulo]

what really happened on that TdS? i couldn't properly follow the TdS due to exams last year but didn't gesink went into the final ITT in yellow and lost it to frankian schleckellara?

is this, i can only assume, disastrous time trial some sort of taboo for gesink fans?

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Sigh. You again. How conveniently insightful of you. You're just mad I'm stating facts that belittle your precious VDB2 results against Gesink in your endless Belgian agenda to deprive anything Dutch. Pathetic. You can call it excuses all you want, however, you cannot and will not ever get around facts. Thanks for displaying your ignorance for all to see.

The Giro 2008 is not the 2010 Tour now is it? I'm talking about stage 3 in particular, was there a similar stage at the Giro? Did Contador have that same injury? Is Contador Gesink? It's all black and white to you, or should I say when it's convenient.

Do you really want to talk about coming up with excuses using Contador as an example? That's hilarious and probably soon to be ironic. Let's not do this.
Can't wait to see what foolishness you come up with next.

To be fair, it seems to me that there is a larger anti-VDB vibe coming from certain Dutch posters than the other way around for Gesink. If Gesink doesn't do well, there is always an explanation, if VDB does worse than Gesink, it is simply because the latter is more talented.

In an other topic (the one about the top 10 for TdF), one poster (non-Belgian i presume) doesn't put Gesink in the top 10, and everybody goes bonkers and this goes on for page after page. On the other hand, when VDB is left out, nobody cares. Just look at this very poll result and the comments by people in this topic. How "easy" this poll is, because obviously, Gesink is so much better.

As for the "bad luck" Gesink always has. Where was he yesterday when the peleton broke apart? In the second group. Where was VDB? In the first. Bad luck or coincidence? Hardly. VDB always rides in front and has to put a lot of effort into that. Last year there wasn't one TdF mountain stage where he wasn't sqandering his powers by constantly riding with his face in the wind, out of fear that riding further back, he might risk falling more, or missing an attack. Maybe he's a dumb ***, but if he rode like many others do, he could greatly improve his classification, but also risk crashing or getting behind at the same time.

The fact of the matter is, they are both talented riders (maybe on different skill levels), but with a different style (not only during the race, but the preparation to it as well). vdb also happens to be a late bloomer, Gesink has been expected to do well for years. But with neither riders, you would bet your house that he will finish before the other. If this year in the TdF Gesink ends up 4th and VDB ends up 8th, i sure as hell won't be surprised. But neither would i be if VDB ends up 3rd and Gesink 5th.

 

[The Hitch]

is this, i can only assume, disastrous time trial some sort of taboo for gesink fans?

If you asked for what happened on stage 6 you would be getting several essays worth of descriptions.


He lost it to Frank but it could have been anyone. To be fair the entire top 10 was rearanged. Uran was 2nd and I think Quim was up there as well as ACF's beloved Morabito. All of these guys moved down

People thought it was Armstrong vs Gesink.

But as Gesink and the other top guys started losing time, it was obvious Armstrong and a few others were going to overtake Gesink, suddenly everyone sees Frank Schleck, who was between Gesink and Armstrong at the begining of the day, come in with the tt of his life.

But Gesink had already lost it by then.

Had Frank not performed then it would have been Armstrong or Fuglsang.

 

[cineteq]

Can't wait to see what foolishness you come up with next.

It will be epic!

 

[auscyclefan94]

To be fair, it seems to me that there is a larger anti-VDB vibe coming from certain Dutch posters than the other way around for Gesink. If Gesink doesn't do well, there is always an explanation, if VDB does worse than Gesink, it is simply because the latter is more talented.

In an other topic (the one about the top 10 for TdF), one poster (non-Belgian i presume) doesn't put Gesink in the top 10, and everybody goes bonkers and this goes on for page after page. On the other hand, when VDB is left out, nobody cares. Just look at this very poll result and the comments by people in this topic. How "easy" this poll is, because obviously, Gesink is so much better.

As for the "bad luck" Gesink always has. Where was he yesterday when the peleton broke apart? In the second group. Where was VDB? In the first. Bad luck or coincidence? Hardly. VDB always rides in front and has to put a lot of effort into that. Last year there wasn't one TdF mountain stage where he wasn't sqandering his powers by constantly riding with his face in the wind, out of fear that riding further back, he might risk falling more, or missing an attack. Maybe he's a dumb ***, but if he rode like many others do, he could greatly improve his classification, but also risk crashing or getting behind at the same time.

The fact of the matter is, they are both talented riders (maybe on different skill levels), but with a different style (not only during the race, but the preparation to it as well). vdb also happens to be a late bloomer, Gesink has been expected to do well for years. But with neither riders, you would bet your house that he will finish before the other. If this year in the TdF Gesink ends up 4th and VDB ends up 8th, i sure as hell won't be surprised. But neither would i be if VDB ends up 3rd and Gesink 5th.

Bingo!!!!!! Intelligent post.