Tour of California vs. The Giro

[dolophonic]

There is some real serious climbing to be done, some of those climbs may not be open even in May. The Sierra Nevada's go up ! and they are steep.

 

[auscyclefan94]

There is some real serious climbing to be done, some of those climbs may not be open even in May. The Sierra Nevada's go up ! and they are steep.

How high in altitude? We have the Sierra Nevada climb in Spain and the Sierra Nevada's in Calafornia. Is their a link between the two?

 

[Mellow Velo]

Found this in a German site:-
At Radio Shack, they had said to him: "You're doing what you need to do to be in the Tour de France at your best."
That's the sponsors to LA, btw.

 

[BeachBum]

How high in altitude? We have the Sierra Nevada climb in Spain and the Sierra Nevada's in Calafornia (sic).

The Sierra Nevada (CA version) has 4 passes over 8500 ft (2600m); Carson, Ebbetts, Sonora, and the highest, Tioga (at 9943 ft, 3031m). However, even in May, the passes might not be open. The CA Dept of Transportation tries to get Tioga open by Memorial Day (last week in May), but storms can close the pass all the way into July.

Outside of the Sierra, there are other climbs the ToC hasn't seen. Mt Baldy, near LA, 12.6 miles, av grade 7%, 4615ft elevation gain. Gibraltar Rd in Santa Barbara, 8 miles, av grade 7%, summit is just about 4000 feet, and you can climb pretty much all the way from sea level in town. Santa Barbara County also has Mt Figueroa, 15% grade in places, 4000 feet elevation gain. They could easily run a road stage that include Figueroa and Gibraltar.

 

[shawnrohrbach]

The TOC is not fan friendly. The next to last stage in 09 ending in Pasadena at the Rose Bowl stadium was a mess. They used about 2% of the parking lot and the podium area held about 15 people. There was more empty space at the finish line sectioned off with no access than there was viewing area by a long shot. The racers had to wend their way through a maze of cyclone fences and through the thick of the tightly packed crowd and got mobbed. The last stage, ending in Escondido, was basically the same cluster F**K. It wasn't that the crowds were particularly large, it was the promoters who squeezed the finish line, snobby private party/viewing boxes, the podium and then (oh gosh an after thought) the fans into a very tight and congested city block. The product booths were so tightly packed together three people could not pass. We eyed the situation and just went home and watched it on TV. I don't care when they hold it if they don't put some rational thinking into their planning I won't go and watch.

 

[craig1985]

The Sierra Nevada (CA version) has 4 passes over 8500 ft (2600m); Carson, Ebbetts, Sonora, and the highest, Tioga (at 9943 ft, 3031m). However, even in May, the passes might not be open. The CA Dept of Transportation tries to get Tioga open by Memorial Day (last week in May), but storms can close the pass all the way into July.

Outside of the Sierra, there are other climbs the ToC hasn't seen. Mt Baldy, near LA, 12.6 miles, av grade 7%, 4615ft elevation gain. Gibraltar Rd in Santa Barbara, 8 miles, av grade 7%, summit is just about 4000 feet, and you can climb pretty much all the way from sea level in town. Santa Barbara County also has Mt Figueroa, 15% grade in places, 4000 feet elevation gain. They could easily run a road stage that include Figueroa and Gibraltar.

So ideally when is the best time of the year to be able to do all the mountain passes in California?

 

[Arnout]

What the Tour of California organizers are forgetting is that they will never be on the same level as an old European race like the Giro. They simply don't have the history.

Its the same with, for example, the Amstel Gold Race. No matter the difficulty of the race, its only 45 years old and it lacks the history and the name of Liege Bastogne Liege. Even the Vuelta suffers from this, and we shouldn't talk about the Hamburg thing, which is in essence the same race as Paris - Tours, but noone cares about Hamburg.

So there's no way the race will attract any publicity (and with that, strong riders) if they're gonna move to May.

 

[BeachBum]

So ideally when is the best time of the year to be able to do all the mountain passes in California?

July. ...but I am sure they will be fine in May.

Highly unofficial, highly speculative 2010 ToC course listed here: http://www.steephill.tv/tour-of-california/

If that is real, they aren't even going to go into the Sierras, just the foothills. Mostly a rehash of of past 4 years. Nothing north of Sacramento or south of LA. One mountain top finish, in Big Bear (~6000', 2000m).

 

[Rupert]

Bristlecone

There some long climbs in California, but none have the gradient of say a Ventoux or most of the Alps

Maybe not the gradient, but I think the US (Rockies and Sierras) has a lot of longer (and higher) climbs than most of Europe. I was surprised to hear some of the T-Mobile guys who trained in Tucson talking (on Cycling News I think) about what a "hard" climb Mt Lemmon is, and it only averages about 5% - I never thought of it as that hard. But there is 20 miles of pretty steady climbing, and it tops out close to 9,000'. I was also surprised to hear how "high" the Tourmalet is (2,100 meters!!!) considered, since we ride over 3,000 meters pretty routinely in Colorado and California. If I could figure out how to post a picture I have a to-scale comparison of the Death Ride vs the Queen stages of the Tour and the Giro.

Hee's a climb that's part of the Everest Challenge: http://www.everestchallenge.com/page1.ihtml?id=19&parent_id=0
Unfortunately it's probably too unaccessible (far from any population centers) and the climbs across the Sierras to get to the area are likely still closed in May. I rode this in March and it is long and hard with some pretty steep gradients.

 

[blaxland]

The Sierra Nevada (CA version) has 4 passes over 8500 ft (2600m); Carson, Ebbetts, Sonora, and the highest, Tioga (at 9943 ft, 3031m). However, even in May, the passes might not be open. The CA Dept of Transportation tries to get Tioga open by Memorial Day (last week in May), but storms can close the pass all the way into July.

Outside of the Sierra, there are other climbs the ToC hasn't seen. Mt Baldy, near LA, 12.6 miles, av grade 7%, 4615ft elevation gain. Gibraltar Rd in Santa Barbara, 8 miles, av grade 7%, summit is just about 4000 feet, and you can climb pretty much all the way from sea level in town. Santa Barbara County also has Mt Figueroa, 15% grade in places, 4000 feet elevation gain. They could easily run a road stage that include Figueroa and Gibraltar.

thanks for the excellent information on the different climbs...now all i have to do is book a plane flight?

 

[Boeing]

stick a fork in Cali

 

[pmcg76]

stick a fork in Cali

Here we go, enjoy the read. Maybe the mods can combine a few threads here.

 

[dolophonic]

http://www.steephill.tv/tour-of-california/

This is a great stage... the climb up Hwy 39 is amazing... and keep going to Dawsons saddle.
It's no Giro but still a big improvement over previous stages.

 

[JayZee]

What the Tour of California organizers are forgetting is that they will never be on the same level as an old European race like the Giro. They simply don't have the history.
....

So there's no way the race will attract any publicity (and with that, strong riders) if they're gonna move to May.

You really think the TOC organizers are "forgetting" something. Come on, they are intelligent people and I am sure that this was not some knee jerk decision. They are trying to grow a product and make money and they obviously believed the best way to do that was to move to May and to do it before LA retires again. It is a gamble, but give them props for taking it.

And as for publicity, uh, okay. Did you you do any web surfing today? Strong riders? I think they will have plenty.

Frankly, in my opinion, three week grand tours are becoming too long and boring. It is lucky they do have the history because in many ways that is their best asset. I would love to see a seven day tour de france with three summit finishes, a time trial, and few rolling stages.

 

[avanti]

.............. And while we are on ...roblem as California in shutting down roads).

 

[avanti]

I think some TdF hopefuls will prefer the ToC over the Giro - good racing but not too much.

 

[Anonymous]

None of this matters unless DirecTV works out a compromise with the Versus channel. Although, maybe by then my satellite contract will have expired and I can switch to Comcast. haha!

One of the attractions of the ToC, for me at least, was that I'd get to see Euro riders like Cipollini, Bettini, Boonen, Voigt, Cancellera, The Schleck Bros., Thor, Cav and so on. So one of my fears is that I won't get to see those guys (sans the retired guys) up close anymore since there are no plans ion the near (or far) future to visit Europe.

As for the casual cycling fan at the ToC, most only really care to see Lance. Casual meaning no one that visits these forums and they only know Lance and the TdF and maybe LeMond because they see it on the local news or ESPN.

 

[ak-zaaf]

In the first 15 threads on this page, 4 are about the ToC.

What is it about this race that I have missed the last years?

 

[Oldman]

In the first 15 threads on this page, 4 are about the ToC.

What is it about this race that I have missed the last years?

Unless you miss a dose of The Governator or Floyd's bizarre aero position, not much. Coverage is a total boosterism excercise and the big team bludgeons all comers. Not much drama.
Giro is a GT. This is a well attend North American stage race.

 

[**Uru**]

The thing that perhaps the ToC has going for it is that there are a number of riders who only ride a week or so of the Giro and then drop out. The organizers of the Giro complained about teams that were riding their race as a training ride a couple of years ago. The advantage for both the Giro and the ToC is that these riders should go to the ToC instead. Lets be serious though, the Giro is a far more important race and would be better served if all the riders are there for the whole thing.

The real negative for the ToC is that it is in, well, California. The European teams might not want to fly all the way there just to turn around and fly back to Europe 8 days later.

 

[aarnold517]

despite what everyone is saying about the conflict between the two races, i love cycling so ill be watching and following both

giro in the morning here in the states followed by the tour of cali in the early evening, sounds like a fine summer day to me

 

[yetanothergreenworld]

Have you got a handy Zoncolan over there?

California does have some very, very high mountain passes, but the problem is that the roads are not constructed the way that they are in France or Italy: instead of narrow, windy switchbacks, the Rockies and the Sierra Nevada have these big, straight highway-style ramps. This is of course because they're more modern, but it makes for a poorer climbing contest.

You actually have more traditional, Euro-style roads in the coastal hills near Napa and Sonoma, where I live, but these hills are only 1000-2500 feet high. The Trinity Grade and Howell Mountain Road are good examples: they're steep, nasty little climbs, but considerably shorter than an Alpine pass. I think they could make a great little stage that loops around Napa, Sonoma and Lake Counties, hitting several of these climbs in succession, including Spring Mountain Road, which Astana trained on last winter. Also, the Oakville Grade (any locals reading?) would make a great Mur-de-Huy-style slow-motion final sprint.

 

[davidw]

California does have some very, very high mountain passes, but the problem is that the roads are not constructed the way that they are in France or Italy: instead of narrow, windy switchbacks, the Rockies and the Sierra Nevada have these big, straight highway-style ramps. This is of course because they're more modern, but it makes for a poorer climbing contest.

If California is like Oregon, the "best" racing roads are the little-known, secondary ones in out-of-the-way places, not the major mountain passes that everyone has heard of for the very reason you mention - the major ones are hardly ever steep enough.

I bet there are some fantastic roads in the far north of the state, in the middle of the Trinity Alps and Siskyous, but that area is really, really remote, so it would probably not be practical from a logistics point of view.

 

[flicker]

Eno

I think the Tour of California could have 3 stages in Sonoma/Marin/SF.

Some of the best cycling roads around. 1 in Santa Cruz/Santa Clara county.

Hella hilly there. Pacific Valley Cone Peak Nacemiento Fergesson Big Sur Monterey. Tat be a booty kicker.

I would stay out of the Central Valley....boooring! Bakersfield who cares?

The only ripping roads I know in So-Cal are the one that climbs east along the border out of San Diego. I'd combine that with a return at Calexico, across the border Mexicali over the Rumerosa and finish in Tiajuana. That would be manlike indeed.

I know gnarly gravel climbs around state that rival Europe. I hate the suburban California, the pits. Maybe some climbs around Hemet.