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Mar 12, 2009
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Rise Of The Dead said:
Well, I'm only using the greatest TT of all time as an example, the current World C & the biggest powerhouse in cycling & who dominated Contador by 18 seconds at the opening time trial at the '09 tour in Monaco, but there you go. Keep on with your silly arguments. If Cancellara has 2.5x times the strength of Wiggins in reserve, only one outcome unfortunately... I maybe wrong of course, a weaker rider beats a stronger, anyway...

To the original poster who wants to increase his speed; build both your areobic & anaerobic systems. Again, not saying don't put in the thousands of miles & hours, that is your biggest necessitiy in becoming the best you can be, but the more strength you develop, the more power you can apply to the pedals, the faster your able crank.

The point of highlighting Wiggins and Contador is that even rake thin can produce the highest levels of aerobic power. Cancellara is king of the TTs. But Condator, and others, have beaten him. This is not a case X beats Y but rather that you can be a stick and still be top of your game. Where's the strength there?

Can you point me to exactly how and when Cancellara does weight training? Details of his training program?

And can you elaborate as to how being able to push weight in a gym in anyway helps your ability to say "push" the effect "weight" of the pedals at 400 watts @ 90rpm? Know how much force it actually takes? And if strength wins then why don't TTers look like track sprinters?

What physiological adaptations take place doing weights that can't be trained on the bike?

The only exception I can think of are track sprinters and even then the largest part of their training is done on the bike.

It is views such as these that will actually hinder the OP, the time is best spent riding.
 
Jan 1, 2010
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Throwing the names of Contador & Wiggins into the mixer is doing absolutely nothing for your argument whatsoever. I would have loved to have seen Contador at the Worlds in Mendrisio, he wouldn't have figured against Fabian in that form, I was there & tapeworm, let me tell you, I took one look at Cancellara's chainring & my jaw hit the floor, bloody god damn dinner plate it was.

I'm not sharing Cancellara's weight training program. Like I said, hit the posterior chain.

Time trialists & track sprinters. Apples & oranges.

An increase in raw strength takes place doing weights that can't be trained on the bike. Wiggins will never be as strong as Cancellara just riding a bike all day long, fact. If Cancellara has the ability to generate more force to a bigger chainring, well, the rest is history..

How being able to push weight in a gym in anyway helps your ability to say "push" the effect "weight" of the pedals???... Stupid question. If you strengthen "your push" (& pull) you have the ability to "generate a much more forceful "push" to the pedals. I mean that is a basic 1st grade strength principal.

You know Lance Armstrong lifts weights don't you?...

I'll finish on this one tape. To push Cancellara's "dinner plate", You NEED hella strength, JUST TAKE MY WORD ON THAT ONE, lol...
 
Mar 12, 2009
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Well your knowledge of basic physics and human physiology is lacking somewhat.

Can you explain EXACTLY how increasing muscular strength increases aerobic based performance? More "strength" means nothing (hence my comparrison to track sprinters). Precisely what effect takes place at a cellular level from doing weights? Do you actually know how much force is required at the pedals? It's quite small. How does doing, say a leg press, 15, 60, 120 times translate to one that is done over a 1000 times? Most people can push a 56/11... Just not for very long.

Many many studies have looked at this and come to the same conclusion, weights do nothing for aerobic performance.

Yes, Lance may do weights, hell a lot of pros do a lot of things it doesn't mean that a) it has any bearing on aerobic performance on the bike or b) we should do the same.

Reasons for doing weights may include correcting muscle imbalances, maintaining skeletal density (though impact sports could be better for this), just something different to do in the offseason.

So any proof to your claim that Cancellara does weights, or just "I read this somewhere", "I know a guy who knows a guy..."?

Any real facts or just your opinion and "common knowledge"?
 
Rise Of The Dead said:
If Cancellara has the ability to generate more force to a bigger chainring, well, the rest is history..

How being able to push weight in a gym in anyway helps your ability to say "push" the effect "weight" of the pedals???... Stupid question. If you strengthen "your push" (& pull) you have the ability to "generate a much more forceful "push" to the pedals. I mean that is a basic 1st grade strength principal.
It's not a stupid question, but it sure is a stupid answer.

Have you any idea of how far away from one's strength the forces on the pedals are when riding a TT (even for Cancellara)? Well it's pretty obvious you don't.

Here's a clue: They are nearly an order of magnitude less than one's maximal force generation capacity (i.e. strength). This is basic exercise physiology.

Strength is not a limiter in endurance cycling performance (and especially so in time trialling). This is basic exercise physiology.

Strength (maximal force generation ability of a muscle or group of muscles) and endurance (ability to sustain power for longer durations) are not related. This is basic exercise physiology.

Have you any idea how long muscles require to generate maximal forces? And how that can possibly ever transfer to a rider pedalling at 90-100 rpm? * This is basic exercise physiology.

Indeed, the physiological adaptations that come from increasing one's strength (such as increased mass, reduced mitochodral density, increased diffusion distance for exchanges of gases and key metabolites, lower capillarisation) run counter to one's ability to generate higher sustainable aerobic power (watts per kg). This is basic exercise physiology.


* a fact that is not lost on exercise physiologists that train elite track sprinters (where cadences are far far higher than in road cycling) which is a realm where strength plays a part, but only up to a point. Even in track sprinting, strength is often not a limiter.


Now of course the caveat on all this is that if you are untrained, then just about any exercise will improve performance. But we are not talking about untrained riders here.
 
Rise Of The Dead said:
If Cancellara has 2.5x times the strength of Wiggins in reserve, only one outcome unfortunately... I maybe wrong of course, a weaker rider beats a stronger, anyway...
Well using your fallacious logic, can you explain why Chris Hoy wouldn't beat Cancellara in a road time trial, or even a prologue?

I mean it's pretty clear Hoy can generate greater forces on the cranks than Cancellara and he would have an even higher "strength reserve" than every rider in the TdF.
 
Nov 28, 2009
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I've started on a new training regime now. I'm targeting specific skills in four week blocks. eg. I've just finished a block of hill repeats and i must say i'm amazed at the results. I'm interested to read about the varying views on weights v no weights but i can say from the bottom of my heart that i hate weight training and have no intention of adding it to an already hectic life.:)
 
Jan 10, 2010
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All I will say is... Armstrong, Ullrich, Cancellera & Hoy all lift weights, all got too the top of there sport, beating everyone under the sun that don't lift. Coincidence??... Or just "stronger" rider beats weaker???...
 
GratefulDead said:
All I will say is... Armstrong, Ullrich, Cancellera & Hoy all lift weights, all got too the top of there sport, beating everyone under the sun that don't lift. Coincidence??... Or just "stronger" rider beats weaker???...
Pantani, Contador, Boardman don't/didn't. So what's your point, apart from a highlighting a particularly weak form of argument?
 
Jul 4, 2009
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PainIsYourFriend said:
I've started on a new training regime now. I'm targeting specific skills in four week blocks. eg. I've just finished a block of hill repeats and i must say i'm amazed at the results. I'm interested to read about the varying views on weights v no weights but i can say from the bottom of my heart that i hate weight training and have no intention of adding it to an already hectic life.:)

Most of my training is based on phases, mine are 6 weeks in length. 5 weeks on and a mandatory 1 week of recovery between sets. The other thing I do is after 3 phases I do a complete 6 week recovery set. Then I judge my next set of goals and plan out my next 3 sets. The basics are base, build, focus on goal, followed by recovery.

Weights are a hit and miss based on the rider. Some riders swear by then and others could not care less. I never did weights in my 20's but now that my testosterone has dropped in my 40's I find I need to lift in order to keep muscle mass. Weight training is one the big training things where the "your results my vary" quote fits perfectly.

Finally, remember what works for a pro-cyclist, a club racer, or a Joe blow across the street, may never work for you. We are all different. That is why I like the Base, Build, Focus, and Recover. Your focus can be your strengths or weaknesses but it is a simple, easy and effective formula.

L
 
Alex Simmons/RST said:
It's not a stupid question, but it sure is a stupid answer.

Have you any idea of how far away from one's strength the forces on the pedals are when riding a TT (even for Cancellara)? Well it's pretty obvious you don't.

Here's a clue: They are nearly an order of magnitude less than one's maximal force generation capacity (i.e. strength). This is basic exercise physiology.

Strength is not a limiter in endurance cycling performance (and especially so in time trialling). This is basic exercise physiology.

Strength (maximal force generation ability of a muscle or group of muscles) and endurance (ability to sustain power for longer durations) are not related. This is basic exercise physiology.

Have you any idea how long muscles require to generate maximal forces? And how that can possibly ever transfer to a rider pedalling at 90-100 rpm? * This is basic exercise physiology.

Indeed, the physiological adaptations that come from increasing one's strength (such as increased mass, reduced mitochodral density, increased diffusion distance for exchanges of gases and key metabolites, lower capillarisation) run counter to one's ability to generate higher sustainable aerobic power (watts per kg). This is basic exercise physiology.


* a fact that is not lost on exercise physiologists that train elite track sprinters (where cadences are far far higher than in road cycling) which is a realm where strength plays a part, but only up to a point. Even in track sprinting, strength is often not a limiter.


Now of course the caveat on all this is that if you are untrained, then just about any exercise will improve performance. But we are not talking about untrained riders here.

+1
What he said.
 
Mar 27, 2010
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baaaah weightlifting

for. mr contador and greatfulldead deadlift whatever (you are the same guy i think)... you ate just absolutely wrong!!!!!! ..
Weight lifting will not help you being faster, I can garantee you that, it seems you dont ride bike that much..
Cancellara is big because it is in his genes. Do you know something about bodies? body types? ectomorph, mesomorph and endomorph???? if you have a skinny build like a climber it doesnt matter how much weight you lift you are not gonna get big like cancellara!! and weight lifting will not help you on your bike. you can lift some weights maybe for sprinting if you can recruit the muscles used in lifting on your bike, lift to help muscle imbalance in pre season, strenghten tendons etc. or maybe just jog.. or plyometric jumps
.... I can ride faster than most big muscled guys, even sprint faster... and Im no sprinter: 60 maybe 61 kg, 1.72 cm
and I dont lift.;)
What makes you fast is your aerobic capacity and a high lt and Vomax. Core strength is need to trasmit better power to the pedal. I do core excersises:rolleyes:
Some on bike strength plan is the way to go in your season or off season some low cadence 53x13,12,11 intervals (some days below 80% other over). low cadence on hills repeat 2 x20 minutes. one leg drills. etc.

If you are lifting you won't be able to handle some good hours of REAL training. and it will just make you slower.

Even sprintin you will train on bike. 53x12 from a slow staring point. 1 minute flat out drills. etc
I'm almost sure you can't handle speed. and I doubt you ride a lot.
 

buckwheat

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Alex Simmons/RST said:
Strength is not a limiter in endurance cycling performance (and especially so in time trialling). This is basic exercise physiology..

What are the limiters.

Alex Simmons/RST said:
Strength (maximal force generation ability of a muscle or group of muscles)

You're getting into arguments over semantics with your definition of "Strength." So that maximal force generation with which you define "strength" is one repetition maximum?

Alex Simmons/RST said:
and endurance (ability to sustain power for longer durations) are not related.

Longer durations? Like 10 reps, or 20? What's the cutoff for your definition of endurance? So if you train for 10 reps of an exercise with muscular failure on the 11th rep, you're not going to increase your "strength" for 1 repetition maximum?

Alex Simmons/RST said:
This is basic exercise physiology.

Not as "basic" as you're making it out to be.

An individuals potential for either "strength" or endurance isn't inversely proportional? An inverse relationship means they are.....well....related..



Alex Simmons/RST said:
Indeed, the physiological adaptations that come from increasing one's strength (such as increased mass,..

So the increased muscular mass of the legs of an elite cyclist is hurting them.

Alex Simmons/RST said:
reduced mitochodral density, increased diffusion distance for exchanges of gases and key metabolites, lower capillarisation) run counter to one's ability to generate higher sustainable aerobic power (watts per kg). This is basic exercise physiology.

In the Greg LeMond special issue of Cycle Sport? the trainer for francaise de jeux? said training for increased capillarisation was so much hooey. Even if the rest is correct, the suggestion is there that "strength" and endurance are inversely related. I would suggest this has more to do with neurological efficiency of the muscles.

I'm just not buying into your clear delineation of "strength" from endurance. Their are many unknown metabolic factors that are not covered under basic exercise physiology. This is one of them.

http://baye.com/qa-what-is-metabolic-conditioning/

If you do have an explanation for this, I'd be interested. Thanks in advance.
 
buckwheat said:
What are the limiters.
Aerobic Metabolic.

buckwheat said:
You're getting into arguments over semantics with your definition of "Strength." So that maximal force generation with which you define "strength" is one repetition maximum?
So one shouldn't use precise terms when discussing issues of exercise physiology? That is the definition of strength in ex phys.

I didn't say it was a one rep max BTW, but that's a reasonably good indicator of strength. Max force, by definition, occurs at zero speed.

buckwheat said:
Longer durations? Like 10 reps, or 20? What's the cutoff for your definition of endurance? So if you train for 10 reps of an exercise with muscular failure on the 11th rep, you're not going to increase your "strength" for 1 repetition maximum?
The durations normally associated with endurance cycling events (typically considered to be anything from an individual pursuit and longer) and in physiological terms are necessarily dominated by aerobic metabolic processes.

buckwheat said:
Not as "basic" as you're making it out to be.

An individuals potential for either "strength" or endurance isn't inversely proportional? An inverse relationship means they are.....well....related.
I never said they were related at all, inversely or otherwise. A cursory glance at a good ex phys textbook will show you a summary of the research indicating that there is no relationship.

buckwheat said:
So the increased muscular mass of the legs of an elite cyclist is hurting them.
If it reduces their power to body mass ratio, then yes, it will likely hurt their performance. No point adding muscle if it slows you down.

buckwheat said:
In the Greg LeMond special issue of Cycle Sport? the trainer for francaise de jeux? said training for increased capillarisation was so much hooey. Even if the rest is correct, the suggestion is there that "strength" and endurance are inversely related. I would suggest this has more to do with neurological efficiency of the muscles.
Which is why I base my training on evidence based principles, rather than the rubbish one might read in a magazine.

You train to improve sustainable aerobic power output (since that's what enables one to ride further, faster (or to ride at same speed for less relative effort). Increased muscle capillarisation is a natural consequence of such training (as is a range of other such physiological adaptations).

For some information on the types of adaptation attained when training for improved sustainable power, have a look at the chart on this page:
Understanding Power

buckwheat said:
I'm just not buying into your clear delineation of "strength" from endurance. Their are many unknown metabolic factors that are not covered under basic exercise physiology.
Well I can't help it if you won't accept the definition of strength.

buckwheat said:
This is one of them.

http://baye.com/qa-what-is-metabolic-conditioning/

If you do have an explanation for this, I'd be interested. Thanks in advance.
As to that link, I see no reference to trained cyclists.
Just about any training will help an untrained individual's fitness.

There is no evidence to support the use of strength training (i.e. training that improves the maximal force generation capacity of a muscle/group of muscles) for increasing sustainable aerobic power in trained cyclists. There is plenty that demonstrates no or a detrimental impact.


BTW - the average effective pedal force when riding at 300W / 90 rpm is about 18.6kg for both legs.
 
Mar 12, 2009
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Alex, I did see one theory or study (can't remember which) which looked to the reason why resistance training may aid endurance cycling was not for any improvement in "strength" or "strength endurance" or anything like that but rather from the beneficial results of the body's hormone response to resistance training, ie: more testosterone.

Have you seen anything like this and is there any credibility to the theory? (if it is a study I haven't been able to locate it).
 
Tapeworm said:
Alex, I did see one theory or study (can't remember which) which looked to the reason why resistance training may aid endurance cycling was not for any improvement in "strength" or "strength endurance" or anything like that but rather from the beneficial results of the body's hormone response to resistance training, ie: more testosterone.

Have you seen anything like this and is there any credibility to the theory? (if it is a study I haven't been able to locate it).
No. Can't say.
 
Mar 21, 2010
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to the op I see you have already dropped the weight so that is not an issue and I say this to defend some of the talk of going to gym. For two years I struggled at 235-240lbs, I could stay with the local fast rides but everytime a hill approached I woulsd have to be up front to just hang on the back by the time we hit the top and on bigger hills I had to really push a big gear going down to just get back on. Well talked about going to the gym to loose some weight in off season and the guys I ride with suggested to just ride trainer, nothing! Well this year I went to the gym all the time plus rode trainer plus watched what I ate and the pounds flew off 41 of them to date and looking to throw another 20 on that pile. I only go once a week now that the riding season has started and I do not work legs but just maintain some muscle.
 
Nov 24, 2009
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Alex Simmons/RST said:
BTW - the average effective pedal force when riding at 300W / 90 rpm is about 18.6kg for both legs.

Is that 18.6kg total?

Or 18.6kg for each leg?

One other thing you could probably advise on, I have a leg length/strength imbalance, i.e. my right leg is about 1 1/2 cms shorter than my left leg and is stronger (caused by not rowing enough on each side of the boat for 4 years, the strength part, not the growing part). e.g. The one rep max differential is around 8.5% (I haven't been able to measure for a while) and there is a definite size different, with the weaker, longer leg being more slender.

What would you say is the best way to try and change this? There are small things I do, just going about daily life like taking two steps up stairs on the weaker leg and only one on the stronger, as well as trying to do more one-legged squats on the weaker on (I can do a full depth one with the right leg, but not the left). Is there anything more structured I could be doing, or is it just a question of time to correct the changes?

Thanks in advance
 
Big GMaC said:
One other thing you could probably advise on, I have a leg length/strength imbalance, i.e. my right leg is about 1 1/2 cms shorter than my left leg and is stronger (caused by not rowing enough on each side of the boat for 4 years, the strength part, not the growing part). e.g. The one rep max differential is around 8.5% (I haven't been able to measure for a while) and there is a definite size different, with the weaker, longer leg being more slender.

What would you say is the best way to try and change this? There are small things I do, just going about daily life like taking two steps up stairs on the weaker leg and only one on the stronger, as well as trying to do more one-legged squats on the weaker on (I can do a full depth one with the right leg, but not the left). Is there anything more structured I could be doing, or is it just a question of time to correct the changes?

Thanks in advance
Well if your leg imbalances are causing other issues, such as pelvic imbalances when riding, then you might want to think about some ways to fix that as poor posture/positioning on a bike can affect performance. So make sure bike position is right first - that is fundamental.

And if having a strength imbalance concerns you in general (other than for bike riding), then doing some isolated leg strength work will help address that.

But I'm not so sure it'll really be a limiter for your endurance cycling performance in any case.

It is something I too wondered about. You see I had a below knee amputation a bit less than 3 years ago (following complications after a training accident). Now days I ride with a prosthetic cycling leg on my left.

I had 14 months of no weight bearing on the left side other than gradually learning to walk again with a temporary prosthetic - but spent most of that time sedentary / on crutches. My left leg atrophied quite a lot and while I didn't measure it back then, I still have a 5cm difference in lower thigh circumference now. My racing kit is specially modified for the leg difference.

But I pressed ahead not being concerned with what was an obvious difference in strength between left and right. I just focused on improving overall power output with the legs I have.

I started with my first effort back on a bike trainer with 100 watts for 10-minutes. That was June 2008.

Two weeks ago I generated my highest ever 2-hour race power (315 watts @77kg), which I reckon ain't too shabby for a 45 year old recently acquired amputee. I still have a large leg strength differential - but it doesn't stop me putting out some good power.

IOW - strength is not the issue. It's an aerobic sport, not a strength sport.

What I have lost however is sprint power. I am down 2-300 hundred watts over 5-seconds. Here is an example of my power profile before and after my amputation (at the time of writing):
http://alex-cycle.blogspot.com/2010/01/power-profiling-now-and-then.html
 

buckwheat

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Tapeworm said:
Alex, I did see one theory or study (can't remember which) which looked to the reason why resistance training may aid endurance cycling was not for any improvement in "strength" or "strength endurance" or anything like that but rather from the beneficial results of the body's hormone response to resistance training, ie: more testosterone.

Have you seen anything like this and is there any credibility to the theory? (if it is a study I haven't been able to locate it).


LeMond said to train intensely to produce the kind of hormonal effect you're talking about. Then again he said it in Pro Cycling mag (a special LeMond edition) and alex doesn't read this type of rubbish.

He (LeMond) was talking about less than 10 hours a week.

Google ("metabolic condition Arthur Jones") and you'll get some idea of the effects you're talking about.

Contrary to a lot of what the so called experts say, there are areas of exercise physiology that aren't very well understood.

Keep an open mind. Good luck.
 
Nov 24, 2009
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Alex Simmons/RST said:
Well if your leg imbalances are causing other issues, such as pelvic imbalances when riding, then you might want to think about some ways to fix that as poor posture/positioning on a bike can affect performance. So make sure bike position is right first - that is fundamental.

And if having a strength imbalance concerns you in general (other than for bike riding), then doing some isolated leg strength work will help address that.

But I'm not so sure it'll really be a limiter for your endurance cycling performance in any case.

It is something I too wondered about. You see I had a below knee amputation a bit less than 3 years ago (following complications after a training accident). Now days I ride with a prosthetic cycling leg on my left.

I had 14 months of no weight bearing on the left side other than gradually learning to walk again with a temporary prosthetic - but spent most of that time sedentary / on crutches. My left leg atrophied quite a lot and while I didn't measure it back then, I still have a 5cm difference in lower thigh circumference now. My racing kit is specially modified for the leg difference.

But I pressed ahead not being concerned with what was an obvious difference in strength between left and right. I just focused on improving overall power output with the legs I have.

I started with my first effort back on a bike trainer with 100 watts for 10-minutes. That was June 2008.

Two weeks ago I generated my highest ever 2-hour race power (315 watts @77kg), which I reckon ain't too shabby for a 45 year old recently acquired amputee. I still have a large leg strength differential - but it doesn't stop me putting out some good power.

IOW - strength is not the issue. It's an aerobic sport, not a strength sport.

What I have lost however is sprint power. I am down 2-300 hundred watts over 5-seconds. Here is an example of my power profile before and after my amputation (at the time of writing):
http://alex-cycle.blogspot.com/2010/01/power-profiling-now-and-then.html

Thanks for your detailed response!

At the moment it is not effecting me that much on the bike and I have modified inner-soles with a lift to balance out the difference, both when cycling and rowing, as previously I had notice a different rate of fatigue in the two legs, with more power being generated by the stronger leg and it cramping up much faster.

I am going to continue to try and correct the imbalance (e.g. single leg leg press / squats etc) mainly for rowing as that involves a higher ratio of strength to aerobic exercise than cycling.

I don't have a power meter as I mainly use the bike for cross training and focus on AT work for base fitness, so I wouldn't know my outputs!

Thanks
 

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