Re:
After what happened with JTL Sky put any signings passport in front of a panel. If JVDB passes muster for them then that should clear up most pr headaches.
Catwhoorg said:
After what happened with JTL Sky put any signings passport in front of a panel. If JVDB passes muster for them then that should clear up most pr headaches.
Re: Re:
It surprises me how little Talansky has done to earn the respect he gets as a GC racer. He has won the Dauphine, with the help of a huge dose of luck, and the Tour de l'Ain. That's it. His best GT placing is 7th. That's actually a pretty similar stage racing palmares to Dan Martin, although of course Martin is primarily a one day racer while Talansky has never won a one day race and has a total of two stages of any race to his name. What really surprises me though is that Talansky is only two years younger than Martin. I keep mentally classifying him as an up and coming kid, when in fact he turns 27 this year.
If Cannondale have bet the farm on him financially, that strikes me as a huge risk that can't really be justified by his results to date. Although, they may have other information, performance data etc, that suggests potential he has yet to really demonstrate on the road. At the moment though, BMC look to have picked the better American stage racer of that age cohort. And if it means that they can't afford Martin any more, that strikes me as a seriously bad deal. I like Talansky and would love to see him come good, but apart from striking at lucky at last year's Dauphine, there hasn't been much to indicate that he's about to.
It surprises me how little Talansky has done to earn the respect he gets as a GC racer. He has won the Dauphine, with the help of a huge dose of luck, and the Tour de l'Ain. That's it. His best GT placing is 7th. That's actually a pretty similar stage racing palmares to Dan Martin, although of course Martin is primarily a one day racer while Talansky has never won a one day race and has a total of two stages of any race to his name. What really surprises me though is that Talansky is only two years younger than Martin. I keep mentally classifying him as an up and coming kid, when in fact he turns 27 this year.
If Cannondale have bet the farm on him financially, that strikes me as a huge risk that can't really be justified by his results to date. Although, they may have other information, performance data etc, that suggests potential he has yet to really demonstrate on the road. At the moment though, BMC look to have picked the better American stage racer of that age cohort. And if it means that they can't afford Martin any more, that strikes me as a seriously bad deal. I like Talansky and would love to see him come good, but apart from striking at lucky at last year's Dauphine, there hasn't been much to indicate that he's about to.
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In Spain there are some rumours that Landa and Movistar are close to a deal for next season.
"Pour le cas Mikel Landa, á la fin de l`équipe Euskaltel, Eusebio Unzué et le papa de Mikel n`arrivèrent pas á un accord pour peu.
Maintenant une rumeur provenant d`Espagne dit qu`ils seraient d`accord pour l`année prochaine.
Donc Mikel Landa chez Movistar en 2016 ?"
"Pour le cas Mikel Landa, á la fin de l`équipe Euskaltel, Eusebio Unzué et le papa de Mikel n`arrivèrent pas á un accord pour peu.
Maintenant une rumeur provenant d`Espagne dit qu`ils seraient d`accord pour l`année prochaine.
Donc Mikel Landa chez Movistar en 2016 ?"
- May 23, 2009
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Re:
They already have Jack Haig coming in as a stagiaire and I think they're linked with Robert Power (2nd at l'Avenir last year). I'd rather see their focus on developing younger riders continue. In this day and age it's refreshing, not many other teams are doing it.
Very true, Orica wouldn't sign van den Broeck now. He's 32 and his results have been slipping for a while.Ryo Hazuki said:
They already have Jack Haig coming in as a stagiaire and I think they're linked with Robert Power (2nd at l'Avenir last year). I'd rather see their focus on developing younger riders continue. In this day and age it's refreshing, not many other teams are doing it.
Re: Re:
Absolutely true. But Martin (a) is the only rider on the team who is in the very top tier of riders at any specialty, (b) is one of only two riders on the team to have won anything really important (and is much the younger of the two), (c) is the only rider on the team who would be considered likely to win one of the ten or so biggest races again in the next couple of years and (d) has been with the team for his whole career.
I'm also not at all sure that they've really committed their budget elsewhere. I'm sure Talansky got very good money to extend with them, but he can't be on vastly more than comparable leaders at other teams. And there aren't really that many other riders on the team who can be on big money. Hesjedal and then, well, who? There are lots of good riders there, but they certainly aren't a team packed full of regular winners.
The other side of the issue, of course, is that Martin may feel he can get a big payday somewhere else, in which case they may not be able to afford him after all.
Dazed and Confused said:
Absolutely true. But Martin (a) is the only rider on the team who is in the very top tier of riders at any specialty, (b) is one of only two riders on the team to have won anything really important (and is much the younger of the two), (c) is the only rider on the team who would be considered likely to win one of the ten or so biggest races again in the next couple of years and (d) has been with the team for his whole career.
I'm also not at all sure that they've really committed their budget elsewhere. I'm sure Talansky got very good money to extend with them, but he can't be on vastly more than comparable leaders at other teams. And there aren't really that many other riders on the team who can be on big money. Hesjedal and then, well, who? There are lots of good riders there, but they certainly aren't a team packed full of regular winners.
The other side of the issue, of course, is that Martin may feel he can get a big payday somewhere else, in which case they may not be able to afford him after all.
Re: Re:
The main concern for Cannondale is that the value of some of their key riders went up since they signed their previous deals and they may not be able to keep them all. Talansky signed his deal just after Dauphine win and just before going into the Tour de France as a sole leader (probably first time since 2008 when Garmin decided to focus on backing only one rider at TdF), so it is surely decent deal and significantly higher than his previous one. Now they have Slagter, whose value surely went up after 2014 (not sure to how big extent weaker 2015 balance that), Formolo, who surely will be looking now for bigger money as a great prospect after proving he can already compete at the WT level, Navardauskas who seems to have progressed in the last 2 years quite well. I imagine also Haas and Van Baarle may demand more than the previous time. And Hesjedal suddenly regained strong position in negotiations thanks to last Giro, since he didn't really do anything deserving big money between 2012 and last May.
I think there's a choice for Cannondale. Maybe they think it's better to give up on Martin and keep the rest of their prospects to have more balanced team, than keep their best rider at the expense of losing plenty of potential elsewhere. I don't know. I just speculate.
They need some wise decisions anyway, because something is obviously not working properly there this season.
Good post I totally agree with.Zinoviev Letter said:
The main concern for Cannondale is that the value of some of their key riders went up since they signed their previous deals and they may not be able to keep them all. Talansky signed his deal just after Dauphine win and just before going into the Tour de France as a sole leader (probably first time since 2008 when Garmin decided to focus on backing only one rider at TdF), so it is surely decent deal and significantly higher than his previous one. Now they have Slagter, whose value surely went up after 2014 (not sure to how big extent weaker 2015 balance that), Formolo, who surely will be looking now for bigger money as a great prospect after proving he can already compete at the WT level, Navardauskas who seems to have progressed in the last 2 years quite well. I imagine also Haas and Van Baarle may demand more than the previous time. And Hesjedal suddenly regained strong position in negotiations thanks to last Giro, since he didn't really do anything deserving big money between 2012 and last May.
I think there's a choice for Cannondale. Maybe they think it's better to give up on Martin and keep the rest of their prospects to have more balanced team, than keep their best rider at the expense of losing plenty of potential elsewhere. I don't know. I just speculate.
They need some wise decisions anyway, because something is obviously not working properly there this season.
Re: Re:
You are right that things aren't working very well for them this season. The two problems in the early season seem to me to be the lack of a sprinter and the failure of their hilly classic team to perform once Martin fell off his bike. A decent sprinter with say three wins by now would make their pre-Giro season look a lot healthier and their hilly team is so strong on paper that a return from the Ardennes of a single ninth place is very poor even taking into account their main leader's misfortune. They did have a good Giro, so maybe things are looking up. Win a couple of stages at the Tour and all will be forgiven.
As far as their budget goes, well they are one of the less rich teams, so small increases in pay demands can have big consequences as you note. But they are still a WT team and really, when you look across their roster I still don't see too many riders in a position to get significant increases.
It's likely that they are overpaying Talansky. When you are a small budget team you simply can't hire a proven GT contender, at least not without replacing the rest of the team with minimum wage types. And you can't even really hire a prospect after he's shown himself to be one of the strongest but before he starts winning GTs because even they cost too much. Instead if you want a potential GT winner, you have to tie someone down before they've conclusively demonstrated that they are going to be good enough. That involves paying them more than their performances to date justify because you think you've spotted something more. Talansky seems to me to be that type of signing. If he gets markedly better, Vaughters looks like a genius. If he doesn't, their team budget will be be skewed for a couple of years by a significantly overpaid lower reaches of the top 10 sort of GC rider.
To date, Vaughters doesn't look like a genius: Talansky seems to be the third strongest climber on their team and that's not good enough to cut it against the best, for all that he's an excellent TT rider and seems to have good recovery. That said, the question is a long way from being answered, as Talansky is better than quite a number of GT contenders were at 26. He could still improve a lot.
Looking across the rest of their riders, Hesjedal's pay level is only going in one direction at this point in his career. His good Giro means he can probably get more than he could have two months ago, but nobody is going to pay a 35 year old top 10 GC man a GT winners wage. Danielson, as a long time leader, is probably on a somewhat higher wage than can really be justified at this point, but he'll be gone soon. Between those two alone that should free up more than enough money to deal with increased demands from the likes of Haas.
There really aren't many riders on Cannondale-Garmin who could potentially be earning notably bigger money elsewhere. The only three are Martin, Navardauskas and Formolo. I say potentially because it's hard to know what their market value actually is and what their other options are. Formolo is a real prospect, but unlike Talansky's situation there aren't a load of big budget Italian teams out there able to gamble a big pay cheque on him. Navardauskas is the kind of rider any team would love to have, but I find it very hard to judge what his monetary value is. Martin is one of the four or so truly top tier hilly classics riders, so again any team would like him, but few teams can offer him both the support he gets at Cannondale in those races and the ability to lead or co-lead any other race he wants. So the question is really at what point does the paycheque become big enough for him to give up a lot of his GC leadership opportunities and/or stage hunting opportunities?
Anderis said:
You are right that things aren't working very well for them this season. The two problems in the early season seem to me to be the lack of a sprinter and the failure of their hilly classic team to perform once Martin fell off his bike. A decent sprinter with say three wins by now would make their pre-Giro season look a lot healthier and their hilly team is so strong on paper that a return from the Ardennes of a single ninth place is very poor even taking into account their main leader's misfortune. They did have a good Giro, so maybe things are looking up. Win a couple of stages at the Tour and all will be forgiven.
As far as their budget goes, well they are one of the less rich teams, so small increases in pay demands can have big consequences as you note. But they are still a WT team and really, when you look across their roster I still don't see too many riders in a position to get significant increases.
It's likely that they are overpaying Talansky. When you are a small budget team you simply can't hire a proven GT contender, at least not without replacing the rest of the team with minimum wage types. And you can't even really hire a prospect after he's shown himself to be one of the strongest but before he starts winning GTs because even they cost too much. Instead if you want a potential GT winner, you have to tie someone down before they've conclusively demonstrated that they are going to be good enough. That involves paying them more than their performances to date justify because you think you've spotted something more. Talansky seems to me to be that type of signing. If he gets markedly better, Vaughters looks like a genius. If he doesn't, their team budget will be be skewed for a couple of years by a significantly overpaid lower reaches of the top 10 sort of GC rider.
To date, Vaughters doesn't look like a genius: Talansky seems to be the third strongest climber on their team and that's not good enough to cut it against the best, for all that he's an excellent TT rider and seems to have good recovery. That said, the question is a long way from being answered, as Talansky is better than quite a number of GT contenders were at 26. He could still improve a lot.
Looking across the rest of their riders, Hesjedal's pay level is only going in one direction at this point in his career. His good Giro means he can probably get more than he could have two months ago, but nobody is going to pay a 35 year old top 10 GC man a GT winners wage. Danielson, as a long time leader, is probably on a somewhat higher wage than can really be justified at this point, but he'll be gone soon. Between those two alone that should free up more than enough money to deal with increased demands from the likes of Haas.
There really aren't many riders on Cannondale-Garmin who could potentially be earning notably bigger money elsewhere. The only three are Martin, Navardauskas and Formolo. I say potentially because it's hard to know what their market value actually is and what their other options are. Formolo is a real prospect, but unlike Talansky's situation there aren't a load of big budget Italian teams out there able to gamble a big pay cheque on him. Navardauskas is the kind of rider any team would love to have, but I find it very hard to judge what his monetary value is. Martin is one of the four or so truly top tier hilly classics riders, so again any team would like him, but few teams can offer him both the support he gets at Cannondale in those races and the ability to lead or co-lead any other race he wants. So the question is really at what point does the paycheque become big enough for him to give up a lot of his GC leadership opportunities and/or stage hunting opportunities?
Re: Re:
Also their hilly team looks very strong on paper, but lack of results after Martin's crashes isn't that surprising IMO. Hesjedal decided to skip the Ardennes, so that's one strong name down. Haas was (according to him) feeling great at Amstel and I think he could've finished in top5, but he did have mechanical close to the line. Still, he is an unproven rider when it comes to the Ardennes and I think he is not quite good enough climber for FW or LBL. The same goes for Navardauskas. Moser has shown nothing since mid 2013, Formolo,Mohoric and Villella are young and also unproven in Ardennes and Howes hasn't really shown anything at a WT level. Maybe you would expect among that many hill talents to find one to have a breakthrough Ardennes campaign, but the only real disappointment was Slagter IMO.
Nonetheless, you've made a lot of good points and I enjoy reading your posts.
I think a problem is a lot deeper than that. If you look at their roster, nobody really is having a breakthrough season. They have the lowest average age among WT teams, yet literally nobody seems to be in form of his life. That's worrying. And if you look across their whole roster, I think you'll find far more riders who were (or their results were) at least slightly better last year, than this, than the other way around. Yet again, this fact is even more worrying considering the low average age of riders, since so many of them are at the age you expect them to improve year by year.Zinoviev Letter said:
Also their hilly team looks very strong on paper, but lack of results after Martin's crashes isn't that surprising IMO. Hesjedal decided to skip the Ardennes, so that's one strong name down. Haas was (according to him) feeling great at Amstel and I think he could've finished in top5, but he did have mechanical close to the line. Still, he is an unproven rider when it comes to the Ardennes and I think he is not quite good enough climber for FW or LBL. The same goes for Navardauskas. Moser has shown nothing since mid 2013, Formolo,Mohoric and Villella are young and also unproven in Ardennes and Howes hasn't really shown anything at a WT level. Maybe you would expect among that many hill talents to find one to have a breakthrough Ardennes campaign, but the only real disappointment was Slagter IMO.
Nonetheless, you've made a lot of good points and I enjoy reading your posts.
Obviously the big Transfers/Free Agents of the year are going to likely be Kwiatkowski and Porte, assuming they're let loose from Etixx and Sky, respectively. I can't imagine either guy staying in their current situations, and in the case that Kwiato goes to Sky, which seems more and more likely every day, there is almost no chance Porte stays, especially with Kwiato coming in and König becoming Sky's #2 GC man, I'd think. If Richie wants to be a legitimate option for GT's I don't think Orica is the place to go, considering, well, when has Orica ever really contended in a GT GC? But I can't imagine BMC bumps TVG for Richie after the Giro this year. If Richie wants to be a legitimate GT GC contender, where is his best move then?
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BMCRACINGFUTURE said:
More to the point with Orica is that they're invested in the Yates and Chaves project for GTs, which is more exciting than taking the easy way out and getting a 30 year old who could only really hope to be the next Zubeldia unless he has the strongest 8 teammates in the race
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Re:
If Landa signs with them that basically means that the won't sign Uran.
With Valverde never racing the Giro he'd be the leader there, if Quintana only goes for the Tour and maybe co-leader at the Vuelta.Moviestar said:
If Landa signs with them that basically means that the won't sign Uran.
Re: Re:
Yes Uran would be redundant in that case. All depends on the resignings. Intxausti and Amador have received 2/3 offers of WT teams already ( according to Biciclismo), can Unzue promise them more responsibilities as leaders beside Quintana/Valverde and possibly Landa?
Mayomaniac said:
Yes Uran would be redundant in that case. All depends on the resignings. Intxausti and Amador have received 2/3 offers of WT teams already ( according to Biciclismo), can Unzue promise them more responsibilities as leaders beside Quintana/Valverde and possibly Landa?
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Re: Re:
I dont think so, Unzue is practically in love with Valverde and QuinbtanaMoviestar said:
If Richie Porte wants to be a team leader at the TDF, or perhaps any GT, Orica is perhaps the only place he could go to get that, if they want him. He will not get great support unless they bring in a couple of other climbers but it is probably the best he is going to get.
Re:
I already said more than enough about Porte so let me just say that I'm sure that most of my opinions regarding his GT ambitions are shared by most of the WT teams so I truly dont think that any team with serious GT ambitions will hire him to be a GT leader.
If he gets hired by another team, it will be for his one week stage races results. He is very good at those and he should stick with the shorter stage races.
Its like asking some great 1500 meter runner to focus on marathons. It just doesn't work that way and doesn't make any sense.
TheGreenMonkey said:
I already said more than enough about Porte so let me just say that I'm sure that most of my opinions regarding his GT ambitions are shared by most of the WT teams so I truly dont think that any team with serious GT ambitions will hire him to be a GT leader.
If he gets hired by another team, it will be for his one week stage races results. He is very good at those and he should stick with the shorter stage races.
Its like asking some great 1500 meter runner to focus on marathons. It just doesn't work that way and doesn't make any sense.
Re: Re:
Any team would like to have him as a one week stage racer and as a superdomestique. Part of the price of getting him in those roles is allowing him to lead at least one GT a year. He'll have no problem finding a team willing to do that and also pay him a large bag of cash.
Jancouver said:
Any team would like to have him as a one week stage racer and as a superdomestique. Part of the price of getting him in those roles is allowing him to lead at least one GT a year. He'll have no problem finding a team willing to do that and also pay him a large bag of cash.
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