Transfers and Rumours 2018 > 2019

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Feb 20, 2012
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pastronef said:
Red Rick said:
Vasilis said:
b.broadhurst said:
Tim Booth said:

Sosa or Ganna next?

Quiet transfer year for Sky but steadily building for the future with some of the best U23 talent.
I wouldn't call it quiet if they sign young talents like Narvaez, Sosa, Ganna, Dunbar and probably Hayter and maybe Donovan as well.
Lol quiet

It's been out **** rageous this year.

outrageous?
did they sign Cav GVA Pinot Mas or any other big names?

they planning long range. young guys. Dave is looking 3-4 years in advance ;)
They can afford to outbid every team for every young rider. They're hoarding up all the talent, buying out the competition.

You think this is normal?
 
Jan 3, 2010
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Red Rick said:
They can afford to outbid every team for every young rider. They're hoarding up all the talent, buying out the competition.

You think this is normal?
Define "normal". What would you do if you were the principal of the richest cycling team in the world by far, having funding for the next couple of years?
 
Apr 15, 2014
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I would try to destroy cycling by making leaders domestiques so that elite groups in the GTs consist of 8 riders of which at least 4 are yours. I would also try to kill all hope by scooping up every young climbing talent available, even when that means buying off their contracts or making them break their promises to other (lesser) teams.

Oops.
 
Feb 20, 2012
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janraaskalt said:
Red Rick said:
They can afford to outbid every team for every young rider. They're hoarding up all the talent, buying out the competition.

You think this is normal?
Define "normal". What would you do if you were the principal of the richest cycling team in the world by far, having funding for the next couple of years?
I don't know. I don't care if it's logical tactics. It's bad for the overall competitiveness and enjoyability of the sport.

So I am going to complain.
 

rick james

BANNED
Sep 2, 2014
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V46j.gif
 
Feb 20, 2010
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Re:

rick james said:
If you like to cheer for Manchester City and avidly watched every GP during Schumacher's 5 years of dominance, then sure, this is a good thing. There's nothing 'wrong' per se with what Sky are doing (other than that buying people out of contract and football-style tapping up has never been 'the done thing' in cycling, clearly the times are changing, but Sky seem only too willing to invoke The Unwritten Rules when it suits them), but as Red Rick points out, sure it might be logical, but that doesn't mean we have to like it. Just like Manchester City looking to buy Riyadh Mahrez in January because Leroy Sané was out for six weeks, having a team with the funds to just do as it pleases does take away from the enjoyment of the sport. Of course everything around Sky has led to a whirlwind of bitterness, but a marketplace killer like that is never really a good thing for the sport. Because what do we watch for? To be entertained. Following the sport is our hobby. We're not pros. And if one team is so overpowered that its reserves can humiliate the opposition, that's only fun to watch up to a point, save for those who just like to associate themselves with the winners. After that, it just gets samey and predictable.

Because ensuring you have the best talent and being the best in the sport is best for business - up until the point where a lack of spectacle drives down audience figures and being the best in the sport isn't best for business anymore. I'll go back to my combat sports analogy. You need a champion people will either pay to see win, or pay to see get beaten. If people like the champion, that's great. They'll pay to see them. If people don't like the champion, though, they want to see them get beaten. In that case, they need believable challengers. Those challengers don't necessarily need to be able to win - if they come close but the champion is just too good for them when push comes to shove... that's good for business. People will pay to see the rematch, people will wonder, who can take the champion down when the last challenger was close but not close enough. But if the challengers are of a level that's clearly beneath that of the champion, people aren't as likely to pay to see that, because it's an eminently skippable fight. If you don't like the champion and you think him retaining is inevitable because the challengers aren't a believable threat, then why would you watch?

That's the problem. Because Sky have basically waved the chequebook at every quality talent - and again, if you have the resources to do that, it's easy to see why you would, part of the reason Sky have got where they are is that they've invested a lot more wisely than other big budget teams like BMC and Katyusha - it feels like we're headed for a future where the only viable threats to the Sky train will be riders that were offcuts from Team Sky in the first place, seeing as inevitably not all of these great espoirs will turn into great pros, and not everybody meshes with the way Team Sky do things, as talents who've regressed or stagnated there like Thomas Löfkvist, Ian Boswell, Joe Dombrowski and, at time of writing, Sebastian Henao, can attest (the latter is still on the books and still has time to develop, but hasn't kicked on to the level that might have been expected). There's a whole generation of pros whose only experience of high level mountain racing is the follow-the-train technique, where their only recognised tactic for GC racing is trying to fall backwards as slowly as possible, and fans are reliant ever more on aging veterans to provide the fireworks - people like Nibali and Valverde, which inevitably causes a lot of cognitive dissonance among the more clued-up fans too. Contador's gone. The Quintana that tried to stick it to Froome in 2013 and won the Giro in 2014 seems to be on the out. When they're inevitably gone, who's going to fill the void where once there were contenders who were unafraid to challenge the teams that had the race in a stranglehold?

Therefore, to paraphrase Red Rick earlier, it's not illogical, it's sensible and smart recruitment from Sky, and clearly they have a relationship with an agent that has enabled them to seal a few deals here. They've got a position of being able to dominate the market thanks to their budget, and they're spending that budget seemingly wisely - albeit a little amorally, as I'm not convinced that historically teams have really factored in a column for "paying off riders' fines for breaking contracts" into their annual costs spreadsheet - but that doesn't mean we have to like it, and it's bad for the overall depth of competition and variety and unpredictability of the sport, which for many fans is one of its biggest selling points. And when you take away something which is a selling point for a lot of fans, it's not surprising if a few decide to stop buying.
 
Mar 12, 2018
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I don't understand how someone can put out such quality posts every time with much such level of details on so many topics. It's literally impossible.

However I disagree about one aspect. If a talent is good enough to break through they will. Boswell and Dombrowski have absolutely failed when racing in teams with opposite racing style to Sky. In fact these two riders seemed to have their ''peak'' at 19 when they were fighting for podiums in US scene. They can't even do that nowdays. Lofkvist was perhaps most overhyped talent of his generation because of a lucky Giro. Sky's riding style is not necessarily bad for talents in my opinion.

It's just the case that not all talents are destined for greatness. For every Bernal you will get 2-3 riders that will end up being domestiques. It's natural.
 
May 23, 2009
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rick james said:
Robert5091 said:
Tim Booth said:

This is getting ridiculous - sorry, more ridiculous then it was.
how dare a team build for the future
There’s building for the future, then there’s making signings simply to deny opportunities to the opposition.

Sky are moving towards the latter, like Man U and Real Madrid in the early 2000’s.
 
Re: Re:

Libertine Seguros said:
If you like to cheer for Manchester City and avidly watched every GP during Schumacher's 5 years of dominance, then sure, this is a good thing. There's nothing 'wrong' per se with what Sky are doing (other than that buying people out of contract and football-style tapping up has never been 'the done thing' in cycling, clearly the times are changing, but Sky seem only too willing to invoke The Unwritten Rules when it suits them), but as Red Rick points out, sure it might be logical, but that doesn't mean we have to like it. Just like Manchester City looking to buy Riyadh Mahrez in January because Leroy Sané was out for six weeks, having a team with the funds to just do as it pleases does take away from the enjoyment of the sport. Of course everything around Sky has led to a whirlwind of bitterness, but a marketplace killer like that is never really a good thing for the sport. Because what do we watch for? To be entertained. Following the sport is our hobby. We're not pros. And if one team is so overpowered that its reserves can humiliate the opposition, that's only fun to watch up to a point, save for those who just like to associate themselves with the winners. After that, it just gets samey and predictable.

Because ensuring you have the best talent and being the best in the sport is best for business - up until the point where a lack of spectacle drives down audience figures and being the best in the sport isn't best for business anymore. I'll go back to my combat sports analogy. You need a champion people will either pay to see win, or pay to see get beaten. If people like the champion, that's great. They'll pay to see them. If people don't like the champion, though, they want to see them get beaten. In that case, they need believable challengers. Those challengers don't necessarily need to be able to win - if they come close but the champion is just too good for them when push comes to shove... that's good for business. People will pay to see the rematch, people will wonder, who can take the champion down when the last challenger was close but not close enough. But if the challengers are of a level that's clearly beneath that of the champion, people aren't as likely to pay to see that, because it's an eminently skippable fight. If you don't like the champion and you think him retaining is inevitable because the challengers aren't a believable threat, then why would you watch?

That's the problem. Because Sky have basically waved the chequebook at every quality talent - and again, if you have the resources to do that, it's easy to see why you would, part of the reason Sky have got where they are is that they've invested a lot more wisely than other big budget teams like BMC and Katyusha - it feels like we're headed for a future where the only viable threats to the Sky train will be riders that were offcuts from Team Sky in the first place, seeing as inevitably not all of these great espoirs will turn into great pros, and not everybody meshes with the way Team Sky do things, as talents who've regressed or stagnated there like Thomas Löfkvist, Ian Boswell, Joe Dombrowski and, at time of writing, Sebastian Henao, can attest (the latter is still on the books and still has time to develop, but hasn't kicked on to the level that might have been expected). There's a whole generation of pros whose only experience of high level mountain racing is the follow-the-train technique, where their only recognised tactic for GC racing is trying to fall backwards as slowly as possible, and fans are reliant ever more on aging veterans to provide the fireworks - people like Nibali and Valverde, which inevitably causes a lot of cognitive dissonance among the more clued-up fans too. Contador's gone. The Quintana that tried to stick it to Froome in 2013 and won the Giro in 2014 seems to be on the out. When they're inevitably gone, who's going to fill the void where once there were contenders who were unafraid to challenge the teams that had the race in a stranglehold?

Therefore, to paraphrase Red Rick earlier, it's not illogical, it's sensible and smart recruitment from Sky, and clearly they have a relationship with an agent that has enabled them to seal a few deals here. They've got a position of being able to dominate the market thanks to their budget, and they're spending that budget seemingly wisely - albeit a little amorally, as I'm not convinced that historically teams have really factored in a column for "paying off riders' fines for breaking contracts" into their annual costs spreadsheet - but that doesn't mean we have to like it, and it's bad for the overall depth of competition and variety and unpredictability of the sport, which for many fans is one of its biggest selling points. And when you take away something which is a selling point for a lot of fans, it's not surprising if a few decide to stop buying.
This is basically what i've been trying to say in not so many words, in the Sosa thread a few days ago.
 
May 10, 2013
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Kim Magnusson from EF to Riwal. Surprising move as many sites were assuming that he was on a 2 year deal until 2019 with EF.

I don't think he was really a WT-level rider so I'm glad that he will make a space for someone else. Tobias Ludvigsson would be much better if EF insists on having a Swedish rider.

Btw. why is Sweden so short on cycling talent compared to Norway and Denmark?
 
Aug 29, 2009
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Anderis said:
Kim Magnusson from EF to Riwal. Surprising move as many sites were assuming that he was on a 2 year deal until 2019 with EF.
he definitely was, every neo-pro deal is for a minimum of two years
 
May 5, 2010
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search said:
Anderis said:
Kim Magnusson from EF to Riwal. Surprising move as many sites were assuming that he was on a 2 year deal until 2019 with EF.
he definitely was, every neo-pro deal is for a minimum of two years

Damn! Riwal is getting in on the nefarious "buying riders free of their contracts" business early!
 
Mar 13, 2013
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Re: Re:

Logic-is-your-friend said:
Libertine Seguros said:
If you like to cheer for Manchester City and avidly watched every GP during Schumacher's 5 years of dominance, then sure, this is a good thing. There's nothing 'wrong' per se with what Sky are doing (other than that buying people out of contract and football-style tapping up has never been 'the done thing' in cycling, clearly the times are changing, but Sky seem only too willing to invoke The Unwritten Rules when it suits them), but as Red Rick points out, sure it might be logical, but that doesn't mean we have to like it. Just like Manchester City looking to buy Riyadh Mahrez in January because Leroy Sané was out for six weeks, having a team with the funds to just do as it pleases does take away from the enjoyment of the sport. Of course everything around Sky has led to a whirlwind of bitterness, but a marketplace killer like that is never really a good thing for the sport. Because what do we watch for? To be entertained. Following the sport is our hobby. We're not pros. And if one team is so overpowered that its reserves can humiliate the opposition, that's only fun to watch up to a point, save for those who just like to associate themselves with the winners. After that, it just gets samey and predictable.

Because ensuring you have the best talent and being the best in the sport is best for business - up until the point where a lack of spectacle drives down audience figures and being the best in the sport isn't best for business anymore. I'll go back to my combat sports analogy. You need a champion people will either pay to see win, or pay to see get beaten. If people like the champion, that's great. They'll pay to see them. If people don't like the champion, though, they want to see them get beaten. In that case, they need believable challengers. Those challengers don't necessarily need to be able to win - if they come close but the champion is just too good for them when push comes to shove... that's good for business. People will pay to see the rematch, people will wonder, who can take the champion down when the last challenger was close but not close enough. But if the challengers are of a level that's clearly beneath that of the champion, people aren't as likely to pay to see that, because it's an eminently skippable fight. If you don't like the champion and you think him retaining is inevitable because the challengers aren't a believable threat, then why would you watch?

That's the problem. Because Sky have basically waved the chequebook at every quality talent - and again, if you have the resources to do that, it's easy to see why you would, part of the reason Sky have got where they are is that they've invested a lot more wisely than other big budget teams like BMC and Katyusha - it feels like we're headed for a future where the only viable threats to the Sky train will be riders that were offcuts from Team Sky in the first place, seeing as inevitably not all of these great espoirs will turn into great pros, and not everybody meshes with the way Team Sky do things, as talents who've regressed or stagnated there like Thomas Löfkvist, Ian Boswell, Joe Dombrowski and, at time of writing, Sebastian Henao, can attest (the latter is still on the books and still has time to develop, but hasn't kicked on to the level that might have been expected). There's a whole generation of pros whose only experience of high level mountain racing is the follow-the-train technique, where their only recognised tactic for GC racing is trying to fall backwards as slowly as possible, and fans are reliant ever more on aging veterans to provide the fireworks - people like Nibali and Valverde, which inevitably causes a lot of cognitive dissonance among the more clued-up fans too. Contador's gone. The Quintana that tried to stick it to Froome in 2013 and won the Giro in 2014 seems to be on the out. When they're inevitably gone, who's going to fill the void where once there were contenders who were unafraid to challenge the teams that had the race in a stranglehold?

Therefore, to paraphrase Red Rick earlier, it's not illogical, it's sensible and smart recruitment from Sky, and clearly they have a relationship with an agent that has enabled them to seal a few deals here. They've got a position of being able to dominate the market thanks to their budget, and they're spending that budget seemingly wisely - albeit a little amorally, as I'm not convinced that historically teams have really factored in a column for "paying off riders' fines for breaking contracts" into their annual costs spreadsheet - but that doesn't mean we have to like it, and it's bad for the overall depth of competition and variety and unpredictability of the sport, which for many fans is one of its biggest selling points. And when you take away something which is a selling point for a lot of fans, it's not surprising if a few decide to stop buying.
This is basically what i've been trying to say in not so many words, in the Sosa thread a few days ago.

The easy fix to all of the above is for other teams to make themselves more attractive to developing young riders and their management to find more investment to achieve that over 10 year plans. A lot of the issue seems to be the majority of teams live hand-to-mouth not knowing or really planning more than 1-2 years ahead, whereas Sky are clearly working to 10 year goals now. With the changes next year to min team size and the threat of salary caps, signing U23 riders now is a no-brainer and cheaper in the long run too.

As for the Machester City analogy. Football fans are not, not watching football on TV because of them whatseover. Although TV rights and viewing figures have plateaued, Sky still paid £3.57bn over three years to broadcast it in UK. Football is not a good sport to compare to though perhaps as it survives almost separately to any other sport financially anyway.
 
Nov 16, 2013
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search said:
Anderis said:
Kim Magnusson from EF to Riwal. Surprising move as many sites were assuming that he was on a 2 year deal until 2019 with EF.
he definitely was, every neo-pro deal is for a minimum of two years

I'm not sure, as you can only be a neo-pro if you're under 25.
 
Mar 13, 2013
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tobydawq said:
search said:
Anderis said:
Kim Magnusson from EF to Riwal. Surprising move as many sites were assuming that he was on a 2 year deal until 2019 with EF.
he definitely was, every neo-pro deal is for a minimum of two years

I'm not sure, as you can only be a neo-pro if you're under 25.

Yeah he's not a neo pro, but was signed for two years at 25. Doesn't mean much though, if both sides want to split by mutual agreement or buyout.
 
Mar 13, 2013
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Re: Re:

RedheadDane said:
Lexman said:
was he at the end of his contract at Quick Step?

No, he had a three-year contract.
Couldn't be at the end, as he was (is) a neo-pro.

I believe Lefevre gave him the option to look for another team as he couldn't guarantee a sponsor for 2019. Two other riders were also given the option to break contract and look to sign for other teams if they wanted to I believe.
 
Dec 28, 2010
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Anderis said:
Kim Magnusson from EF to Riwal. Surprising move as many sites were assuming that he was on a 2 year deal until 2019 with EF.

I don't think he was really a WT-level rider so I'm glad that he will make a space for someone else.
He finished the vast majority of races he took part in this season, which suggests to me he could be a reliable worker for a PCT team, at least. Good on him for making sure he'll be labelled 'former WT pro' for the rest of his career. Will sound great to the ears of PR people at new, small teams popping up who might sign him in the future.
 
Sep 9, 2012
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Re: Re:

samhocking said:
Logic-is-your-friend said:
Libertine Seguros said:
If you like to cheer for Manchester City and avidly watched every GP during Schumacher's 5 years of dominance, then sure, this is a good thing. There's nothing 'wrong' per se with what Sky are doing (other than that buying people out of contract and football-style tapping up has never been 'the done thing' in cycling, clearly the times are changing, but Sky seem only too willing to invoke The Unwritten Rules when it suits them), but as Red Rick points out, sure it might be logical, but that doesn't mean we have to like it. Just like Manchester City looking to buy Riyadh Mahrez in January because Leroy Sané was out for six weeks, having a team with the funds to just do as it pleases does take away from the enjoyment of the sport. Of course everything around Sky has led to a whirlwind of bitterness, but a marketplace killer like that is never really a good thing for the sport. Because what do we watch for? To be entertained. Following the sport is our hobby. We're not pros. And if one team is so overpowered that its reserves can humiliate the opposition, that's only fun to watch up to a point, save for those who just like to associate themselves with the winners. After that, it just gets samey and predictable.

Because ensuring you have the best talent and being the best in the sport is best for business - up until the point where a lack of spectacle drives down audience figures and being the best in the sport isn't best for business anymore. I'll go back to my combat sports analogy. You need a champion people will either pay to see win, or pay to see get beaten. If people like the champion, that's great. They'll pay to see them. If people don't like the champion, though, they want to see them get beaten. In that case, they need believable challengers. Those challengers don't necessarily need to be able to win - if they come close but the champion is just too good for them when push comes to shove... that's good for business. People will pay to see the rematch, people will wonder, who can take the champion down when the last challenger was close but not close enough. But if the challengers are of a level that's clearly beneath that of the champion, people aren't as likely to pay to see that, because it's an eminently skippable fight. If you don't like the champion and you think him retaining is inevitable because the challengers aren't a believable threat, then why would you watch?

That's the problem. Because Sky have basically waved the chequebook at every quality talent - and again, if you have the resources to do that, it's easy to see why you would, part of the reason Sky have got where they are is that they've invested a lot more wisely than other big budget teams like BMC and Katyusha - it feels like we're headed for a future where the only viable threats to the Sky train will be riders that were offcuts from Team Sky in the first place, seeing as inevitably not all of these great espoirs will turn into great pros, and not everybody meshes with the way Team Sky do things, as talents who've regressed or stagnated there like Thomas Löfkvist, Ian Boswell, Joe Dombrowski and, at time of writing, Sebastian Henao, can attest (the latter is still on the books and still has time to develop, but hasn't kicked on to the level that might have been expected). There's a whole generation of pros whose only experience of high level mountain racing is the follow-the-train technique, where their only recognised tactic for GC racing is trying to fall backwards as slowly as possible, and fans are reliant ever more on aging veterans to provide the fireworks - people like Nibali and Valverde, which inevitably causes a lot of cognitive dissonance among the more clued-up fans too. Contador's gone. The Quintana that tried to stick it to Froome in 2013 and won the Giro in 2014 seems to be on the out. When they're inevitably gone, who's going to fill the void where once there were contenders who were unafraid to challenge the teams that had the race in a stranglehold?

Therefore, to paraphrase Red Rick earlier, it's not illogical, it's sensible and smart recruitment from Sky, and clearly they have a relationship with an agent that has enabled them to seal a few deals here. They've got a position of being able to dominate the market thanks to their budget, and they're spending that budget seemingly wisely - albeit a little amorally, as I'm not convinced that historically teams have really factored in a column for "paying off riders' fines for breaking contracts" into their annual costs spreadsheet - but that doesn't mean we have to like it, and it's bad for the overall depth of competition and variety and unpredictability of the sport, which for many fans is one of its biggest selling points. And when you take away something which is a selling point for a lot of fans, it's not surprising if a few decide to stop buying.
This is basically what i've been trying to say in not so many words, in the Sosa thread a few days ago.

The easy fix to all of the above is for other teams to make themselves more attractive to developing young riders and their management to find more investment to achieve that over 10 year plans. A lot of the issue seems to be the majority of teams live hand-to-mouth not knowing or really planning more than 1-2 years ahead, whereas Sky are clearly working to 10 year goals now. With the changes next year to min team size and the threat of salary caps, signing U23 riders now is a no-brainer and cheaper in the long run too.

As for the Machester City analogy. Football fans are not, not watching football on TV because of them whatseover. Although TV rights and viewing figures have plateaued, Sky still paid £3.57bn over three years to broadcast it in UK. Football is not a good sport to compare to though perhaps as it survives almost separately to any other sport financially anyway.
It's also not a good sport to compare because they are two entirely different types of sport. Even if a team is dominant one can still enjoy their style and quality of play, which is obviously more difficult in cycling.