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Mar 17, 2009
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Mellow Velo said:
They don't play be JC rules, here, so best to make statements that are "open ended" and let folks decide for themselves, what you mean!;)

Can't comment upon Levis's:eek: performance, but Bertie was definitely on for a bit of "two up" with his EE mate.
Should have got a major time penalty. Instead he got to wear the points jersey.
LL was riding shotgun, today, so I expect the "world's best trialist" to hit the mountain accelerator, tomorrow.

Yeah I started off being open ended, but I think it was the reference to"Lance Juice" that got me the warning. Anyway be interesting to see what happens tomorrow, off work so should be able to watch it assuming the Net feed is working.
 
Angliru said:
[Leipheimer] has to be considered in the top 5 among the current grand contenders with Contador, Basso, Evans and Sastre with Armstrong as the unknown based on his 3 years away from competition. /QUOTE]

Again, Kloden is left off the list? But why? He's beaten Leipheimer in every Grand Tour where the two were captains (and even occasionaly when Kloden was still riding for Ullirch). He's beaten Basso, Evans, AND Sastre, head to head.

The only person he hasn't beaten is Armstrong.

It always bothers me when Kloden is left off of these lists. I know it shouldn't, but he's probably my favorite GC rider. So there! :mad:
 
mr. tibbs said:
Angliru said:
[Leipheimer] has to be considered in the top 5 among the current grand contenders with Contador, Basso, Evans and Sastre with Armstrong as the unknown based on his 3 years away from competition.

Again, Kloden is left off the list? But why? He's beaten Leipheimer in every Grand Tour where the two were captains (and even occasionaly when Kloden was still riding for Ullirch). He's beaten Basso, Evans, AND Sastre, head to head.

The only person he hasn't beaten is Armstrong.

It always bothers me when Kloden is left off of these lists. I know it shouldn't, but he's probably my favorite GC rider. So there! :mad:

I think he gets left off because he doesn't seem to want the pressure of being a team leader at a GT. I definitely think he's got as much talent as most of those guys.
 
Mar 18, 2009
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Somebody remind me again what Leipheimer has actually ever won and what great rides I should remember him for? I can only ever remember seeing him sitting on someone's wheel - has he ever actually attacked? I'd be delighted to be corrected...

All I think of (on the rare occasions I think of him) is a small, dirty man getting stripped off in a car park during a very small scale French race and being obnoxious to autograph hunters until, surprise, surprise a camera was turned on him. Duplicitous little snot.
 
bianchigirl said:
Somebody remind me again what Leipheimer has actually ever won and what great rides I should remember him for? I can only ever remember seeing him sitting on someone's wheel - has he ever actually attacked? I'd be delighted to be corrected...

He attacked this year to win ToC. I've seen him attack a few other times in some big races, but no, he doesn't do it a lot and it's not generally his strong suit(think Cadel).

As far as what he's won: Dauphine, Deutschland Tour, ToC, stages of the TdF and Vuelta among others...
 
Mar 10, 2009
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Angliru said:
I don't usually come to the defense of Leipheimer but it seems that I have been inclined to do so more this year than any other. I can't understand how you can say that he's not strong enough for a 3 week event when in 2007 he finished within a minute of Contador and Evans in the final gc of the Tour.
In a support role at the Vuelta he was also on the podium. He has to be considered in the top 5 among the current grand contenders with Contador, Basso, Evans and Sastre with Armstrong as the unknown based on his 3 years away from competition. His climbing ability along with his world class ability versus the clock makes him a force to be reckoned with. For me his riding style isn't all that exciting but he's effective, efficient and seems to have tactical instincts that can't be undersestimated.

I agree though that he also excells at the one week major stage races. Now with Rabobank I don't think management had the utmost confidence in him at the time and rightly so based on his results and his frequent injuries. He just seems on a different arc of development than the standard rider. He seems to be getting better as he rolls further into his 30's which really can't be denied based on his results over the past 3 years. Being with Astana surely has helped immensely.

If the recognition of someone's three week stage racing ability hinges on the exception, you are certainly right...

When I look at Leipheimer, I see the following

2001 USP: VaE: 3rd but in support of Heras, no pressure, and as is the problem with the Vuelta, the field is usually not the best. For many teams it is the tour to test their youngsters' capacity to do well in a three week event. This was certainly his break through and got him a fat RAB contract. It also established him as a high potential three week stage racer, but then...

2002 RAB: TdF 8 as sole leader

2003 RAB: injured

2004 RAB: TdF 9 as sole leader, no other three week event and only focused on the TdF

2005 GST: TdF #6; as sole leader and no other three week stage race

2006 GST: TdF #13; as sole leader and no other three week stage race

2007 DIS: TdF #3; in support of AC, so again no pressure

To me, the only three week result he got was indeed in the 2007 TdF when he was not the leader, but in some kind of superdomestique role, quite the contrary to the CSC dynamics with the Schleck/Sastre/Schleck tandem/tricycle (?) in 2008, without a clear hierarchy. As I also said, he seems to buckle under the pressure when he is the designated team leader in such 3 week events, as evinced by his 'failures' (to secure a podium spot) for GST and RAB. On top of that, before Rasmussen was pulled out of the TdF (for technicalities, rather than a positive test) he was placed 4th, 6m behind...

In 2008 AST: Giro #18 (generally accepted that it's more difficult than the VaE) and VaE #2, but in support of AC and with a seriously diminished field of contenders (Menchov out, Sastre already won the tour, Valverde had been busy since the spring classics) Who else could have been second in the 2008 Vuelta.

So is he strong.. yes! Strong enough... no, because he has consistently failed to secure a podium position/top 5 under the psychological pressure of leadership. He just does not deliver when he needed to. Perhaps it will be different this year, I hope so for him and cycling in general.

but I could be wrong :D
 
Mar 12, 2009
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Angliru said:
His climbing ability along with his world class ability versus the clock makes him a force to be reckoned with. For me his riding style isn't all that exciting but he's effective, efficient and seems to have tactical instincts that can't be under estimated.

Sorry to pick up pieces of your post Angliru, but I couldn't have said it better myself.
Take a look at his palmares http://www.cyclingwebsite.net/coureurfichestats.php?coureurid=4044

1995: F.S. Maestro - Frigas
General Classification Tour de Namur (BEL), Namur

1996: Individual

1997: Comptel Data System
Burlingame (USA)

1998: Saturn
General Classification Tour de Beauce (CAN)

1999: Saturn Cycling Team
3º stage Tour de Beauce (CAN), Mont-Mégantic
General Classification Tour de Beauce (CAN)

2000: US Postal Service
2º stage Circuit Franco-Belge (BEL), La Gorgue

2001: US Postal Service
6º stage Redlands Bicycle Classic (USA), Redlands
1º stage Sea Otter Classic (USA), Laguna

2002: Rabobank
General Classification Route du Sud (FRA)
3º stage Route du Sud (FRA), Plateau de Beille
Steenwijk (NED)

2003: Rabobank

2004: Rabobank
4º stage Setmana Catalana de Ciclismo (ESP), El Port del Comte

2005: Gerolsteiner
4º stage Deutschland Tour (GER), Sölden
General Classification Deutschland Tour (GER)
Mountains classification Deutschland Tour (GER)

2006: Gerolsteiner
Copperopolis (USA)
General Classification Criterium du Dauphiné Libéré (FRA)
5º stage Deutschland Tour (GER), Seefeld (A)
Livermore (USA)
Milton (USA)
Prologue Tour of California (USA), San Francisco

2007: Discovery Channel Pro Cycling Team
Milton (USA)
National Championship, Road, Elite, United States of America (USA), Greenville
19º stage Tour de France (FRA), Angoulême
5º stage Tour de Georgia (USA), Brasstown Bald Mountain
4º stage Tour de Georgia (USA), Lookout Mountain
General Classification Tour of California (USA)
5º stage Tour of California (USA), Solvang
Prologue Tour of California (USA), San Francisco
3º stage Tour of Missouri (USA), Branson

2008: Astaná
General Classification Cascade Classic (USA)
3º stage Cascade Classic (USA), Summit High School
Clasica a los Puertos de Guadarrama (ESP), Guadarrama
Prologue Criterium du Dauphiné Libéré (FRA), Avignon
General Classification Tour of California (USA)
5º stage Tour of California (USA), Solvang
5º stage Vuelta a España (ESP), Ciudad Real
20º stage Vuelta a España (ESP), Alto de Navacerrada

2009: Astaná
General Classification Tour of California (USA)
6º stage Tour of California (USA), Solvang
2º stage Vuelta Castilla y Leon (ESP), Palencia
 
Mar 12, 2009
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bianchigirl said:
All I think of (on the rare occasions I think of him) is blah blah blah blah blah

Bitter personal experience Bianchi, or just an opportunity to slag him personally on forum after forum because of who he rides for? Try sticking to his palmares of which you are well aware please.
 
cyclelicious said:
Try sticking to his palmares of which you are well aware please.

Funny......reading your post of his palmares, above, I'd say Bianchigirl had pretty accurately summed them up.
A few good to decent European stage wins, padded out by a number of non-events.

For instance. Here's everybody's best know domestique Mr Voigt.

Race Pos Date Season

Tour of Poland - Final Ranking 1 20/09/2008 2008

Tour of Poland - Stage 6 1 19/09/2008 2008

Giro d'Italia - Stage 18 1 29/05/2008 2008

Criterium International 1 30/03/2008 2008

Deutschland Tour - Stage 8 1 17/08/2007 2007

Deutschland Tour - Final Ranking 1 17/08/2007 2007

Vuelta al Pais Vasco - Stage 4 1 12/04/2007 2007

Criterium International - Stage 2 1 01/04/2007 2007

Criterium International 1 01/04/2007 2007

Deutschland Tour - Final Ranking 1 09/08/2006 2006

Deutschland Tour - Stage 7 1 08/08/2006 2006

Deutschland Tour - Stage 6 1 07/08/2006 2006

Deutschland Tour - Stage 2 1 03/08/2006 2006

Tour de France - Stage 13 1 15/07/2006 2006

Liege - Bastogne - Liege 2 24/04/2005 2005

Vuelta al Pais Vasco - Stage 5 1 08/04/2005 2005

Paris - Nice - Prologue 1 06/03/2005 2005

Tour Mediterraneen 1 13/02/2005 2005

Tour Mediterraneen - Stage 3 1 11/02/2005 2005

Tour Mediterraneen - Stage 1 1 09/02/2005 2005

Criterium International - Stage 3 1 28/03/2004 2004

Criterium International - Stage 2 1 28/03/2004 2004

Criterium International 1 28/03/2004 2004

Criterium International - Stage 3 1 30/03/2003 2003

Criterium International - Stage 3 1 31/03/2002 2002

Tour de France - Stage 16 1 25/07/2001 2001

Criterium International 1 28/03/1999 1999

Unlike Levis' I cut out all the deadwood. Not much rubbish in there.
TDF winner? I think not.
Top 10 should be a good level for him. 2007 was exceptional.
Btw: Check out that final 2007 ITT, with both his 2006 ITT Tour results.;)
 
Mar 10, 2009
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cyclelicious said:
1995: F.S. Maestro - Frigas
General Classification Tour de Namur (BEL), Namur

1996: Individual

1997: Comptel Data System
Burlingame (USA)

1998: Saturn

General Classification Tour de Beauce (CAN)

They race in Canada? Was it indoor?

1999: Saturn Cycling Team
3? stage Tour de Beauce (CAN), Mont-M?gantic

General Classification Tour de Beauce (CAN)

The champ returned to the Tour de Beauce where he defended his title... What a legendary rider already


2000: US Postal Service
2? stage Circuit Franco-Belge (BEL), La Gorgue

2001: US Postal Service
6? stage Redlands Bicycle Classic (USA), Redlands

1? stage Sea Otter Classic (USA), Laguna

Merckx is rumoured to have had a wet dream about winning the Sea Otter Classic

2002: Rabobank
General Classification Route du Sud (FRA)
3? stage Route du Sud (FRA), Plateau de Beille

Steenwijk (NED)

I am glad you (and Levi) value this win. It'a dutch criterium, which in Europe means a Kriterium, Kermesse, or Kermiskoers. A hefty appearance fee is paid and the podium is commonly decided beforehand. It's a show race, so that people can see their cycling heroes...

2003: Rabobank

2004: Rabobank
4? stage Setmana Catalana de Ciclismo (ESP), El Port del Comte

2005: Gerolsteiner
4? stage Deutschland Tour (GER), S?lden
General Classification Deutschland Tour (GER)
Mountains classification Deutschland Tour (GER)


2006: Gerolsteiner
Copperopolis (USA)
General Classification Criterium du Dauphin? Lib?r? (FRA)
5? stage Deutschland Tour (GER), Seefeld (A)
Livermore (USA)
Milton (USA)
Prologue Tour of California (USA), San Francisco


2007: Discovery Channel Pro Cycling Team
Milton (USA)
National Championship, Road, Elite, United States of America (USA), Greenville
19? stage Tour de France (FRA), Angoul?me
5? stage Tour de Georgia (USA), Brasstown Bald Mountain

4? stage Tour de Georgia (USA), Lookout Mountain
General Classification Tour of California (USA)
5? stage Tour of California (USA), Solvang
Prologue Tour of California (USA), San Francisco
3? stage Tour of Missouri (USA), Branson

LA just t w a t t ed: 'returned to cycling, because I wanted to fill the gap on my resume. Can't live without victories in ToM and ToC. Too bad ToG is canceled this year, would have liked another win'.

The 3 year old Montepaschi Eroica has already more allure than the ToC, ToG and ToM combined....

2008: Astan?
General Classification Cascade Classic (USA)
3? stage Cascade Classic (USA), Summit High School
Clasica a los Puertos de Guadarrama (ESP), Guadarrama
Prologue Criterium du Dauphin? Lib?r? (FRA), Avignon
General Classification Tour of California (USA)
5? stage Tour of California (USA), Solvang
5? stage Vuelta a Espa?a (ESP), Ciudad Real
20? stage Vuelta a Espa?a (ESP), Alto de Navacerrada

2009: Astan?
General Classification Tour of California (USA)
6? stage Tour of California (USA), Solvang
2? stage Vuelta Castilla y Leon (ESP), Palencia

Sorry for that...

Henri Desgrange said:
What time does coverage start today? I've got the day off and I'm intrigued to see if those two big TT men, Dertie and Lamphanger can hang on the MT finish....

http://www.justin.tv/hoarau_tvhd 15:00 Paris Time, so I guess 10:00 ET
 
mr. tibbs said:
Angliru said:
[Leipheimer] has to be considered in the top 5 among the current grand contenders with Contador, Basso, Evans and Sastre with Armstrong as the unknown based on his 3 years away from competition. /QUOTE]

Again, Kloden is left off the list? But why? He's beaten Leipheimer in every Grand Tour where the two were captains (and even occasionaly when Kloden was still riding for Ullirch). He's beaten Basso, Evans, AND Sastre, head to head.

The only person he hasn't beaten is Armstrong.

It always bothers me when Kloden is left off of these lists. I know it shouldn't, but he's probably my favorite GC rider. So there! :mad:

Mr. Tibbs, leaving Kloden off was an oversight but based on his results in the grand tours in the past 3 years I can only concede that he has no interest in contesting the overall in grand tours any longer. He seems content to pursue his wins in week long stage races. His overall record says that he is capable of being one of the best but his ambitions seem to have changed since leaving T-Mobile and joining up with Bruyneel and company.
 
Angliru said:
Leipheimer is always there, lurking in the shadows, waiting for that opportunity.

Balaverde and Biancigirl: I never thought I would be quoting myself but in this scenario it seems necessary. Leipheimer's MO in the grand tours appears to be, and this may also be Bruyneel's strategy (Which is IMO a direct result of Bruyneel not having complete confidence in Contador), be the secret co-captain of the Astana's grand tour teams. Unlike most other lieutenants, Leipheimer seldom coasts in to the summit finishes after putting in the support work for Contador. When he's lost time to Contador in mountainous stages it's due more to either his inability to follow Contador's accelerations/attacks and that wouldn't be proper teamwork to do so unless countering a dangerous opponent's pursuit of Contador or his sitting in with the other contenders as they struggle to avoid losing more time as a result of Contador's attacks. Leipheimer and Bruyneel figure they have an ace in the hole with this strategy because Leipheimer can likely make up most of the time difference in the time trials. Only Evans can compare to the 2 of them in both disciplines.

A perfect example is the final mountain stage in the 2007 Tour before Rassmussen was pulled from the race by Rabobank. After a couple of stages of exchanging violent attacks in the mountains with Rassmussen, Contador finally couldn't answer Rassmussen's last attack. Leipheimer after being dropped intially by Rassmussen and Contador, fought his way back to the duo. He rode with Contador as Rassmussen pulled away until, very likely after receiving the okay from Bruyneel, Leipheimer went off to "limit his losses" to finish second on the stage seconds ahead of Contador. Thus giving Astana/Discovery 2 riders with a shot at the podium never anticipating that Rassmussen would be pulled from the Tour.

Is it possible that Bruyneel recognizes that he has 2 flawed riders and that using them both in this manner is the ideal way to balance out each riders faults with the others assets and thus raise the chance of success for the team? With Armstrong he had the strongest rider with the strongest team completely dedicated to that rider's success.
While we have been some accustomed to Armstrong's almost yearly domination of his opponents in the Tour it really isn't fair to expect similar results or results anywhere near the same from anyone especially a rider as young as Contador and one that is much more prolific in his ambitions over the course of the season. Contador likes to compete in every event he enters, unlike Armstrong who simply used these events as a means to an end. Leipheimer's record shows that he has faltered in the leadership role in the grand tours be it from an inability to handle the pressure or from what could be an
unusually slow rate of his development performance wise.

So to utilize my quote, flying under the radar Leipheimer could slide his way into a grand tour win. Since the original argument was based on whether Leipheimer could "win" a grand tour, I think twice coming within 1 minute or less of the overall translates into that being an inarguable possibility.

The more I type the more complicated it all becomes so I'm going to give it a rest.
 
Angliru said:
mr. tibbs said:
Mr. Tibbs, leaving Kloden off was an oversight but based on his results in the grand tours in the past 3 years I can only concede that he has no interest in contesting the overall in grand tours any longer. He seems content to pursue his wins in week long stage races. His overall record says that he is capable of being one of the best but his ambitions seem to have changed since leaving T-Mobile and joining up with Bruyneel and company.


Yeah, as so many others have mentioned before, Kloden is a team player to a fault. The only GT he's ridden as a captain was when Ullrich was DQ'd in 2006, and, even after that, he immediately jumped onto the (sinking) Vino boat at Astana.

But when you look at his performances (like in 2005 on the Alpe d'Huez, or in the final TT in 2006, the last Tour he finished) you can see that he's the real deal.

On a side note: Looking back over the results from those stages, I'm really stricken by how much Leipheimer has improved since joining Disco/Astana. At this rate, he'll win all three Grand Tours when he's 40 :p.
 
Mellow Velo said:
Funny......reading your post of his palmares, above, I'd say Bianchigirl had pretty accurately summed them up.
A few good to decent European stage wins, padded out by a number of non-events.

For instance. Here's everybody's best know domestique Mr Voigt.

Unlike Levis' I cut out all the deadwood. Not much rubbish in there.
TDF winner? I think not.
Top 10 should be a good level for him. 2007 was exceptional.
Btw: Check out that final 2007 ITT, with both his 2006 ITT Tour results.;)

I don't see the point of your comparison. Jens Voigt is no ones hope nor has he ever been for winning or contending in the gc in any of the grand tours.
As I mentioned earlier Leipheimer has twice finished within one minute of the overall champion in grand tours and finished 6th in 2005.

The question being bandied about is whether he's strong enough to contend in the grand tours and by virtue of his recent history one would have to say yes unless they have some personal unresolved issues with Leipheimer that are distorting their ability to see the facts clearly. I know, I used to be one of those people.:eek:

That last paragraph was a bit harsh even though it was intended to be rather self deprecating so I totally retract the potentially offensive part.
 
Angliru said:
I don't see the point of your comparison. Jens Voigt is no ones hope nor has he ever been for winning or contending in the gc in any of the grand tours.

and that, is exactly my point.
Both men have about the same Palmares in almost identical week stage races.
One has never been considered a GT contender, the other, from almost the outset, has.

While you're at it, check out the palmares of that ex-Tour winner, Landis.

However, I would have to agree, in so far that his recent results suggest, he has.
 
Mellow Velo said:
and that, is exactly my point.
Both men have about the same Palmares in almost identical week stage races.
One has never been considered a GT contender, the other, from almost the outset, has.

While you're at it, check out the palmares of that ex-Tour winner, Landis.

However, I would have to agree, in so far that his recent results suggest, he has.

You sure took a lotta convincing. My fingers are cramping!
 
Mellow Velo said:
and that, is exactly my point.
Both men have about the same Palmares in almost identical week stage races.
One has never been considered a GT contender, the other, from almost the outset, has.

That's what happens when you finish on the podium in your 1st GT.

I think one of the things that makes those week long stage races interesting is You get GT guys, one day specialists, and short stage race guys all with a chance.
 
Ho-hum...the Tour of Spain.
Now, lets have a little think....who has won this race.

So....Sean Kelly and Laurent Jalabert ever given a cat's chance of winning the Tour?

Anyhow, time will tell. He was certain to be in peak form for the Giro, as he was already pencilled in as Lance's lieutenant.
Now, he'll be de facto team leader, with Lance's collarbone worse than expected.
So, we will see how he can contend with the likes of Basso, in Italy.;)

Angliru said:
You sure took a lotta convincing. My fingers are cramping!

You sure can't read between the lines....
 
Man, you really hate Levi! I'm simply saying are you surprised that someone gets touted and pushed as a GT contender after finishing 3rd in his 1st attempt? As for your TdF comparison, I'm sure I don't have to remind you he finished 3rd at the Tour, 31secs back from Yellow, while working for someone else, so I guess those who decided he has a GT contender were correct.

I don't think he'll do anything at the Giro, but I could be wrong. I just don't think it's a priority for him. Do you know if Kloden is scheduled to race there?
 
Of course, silly me, nothing to do with being a bit sceptical.
I must hate the guy....seems all the fashion these days.

Kloden is not due to ride the Giro, but Levi is.
So I'll ask again, why won't he doing anything there?

No...don't bother to answer, most will already know the answer.

So, it's off to the Tour as what? Third string?
Well, for one thing, to win, he'll have to circumnavigate team orders for a start.
That's without bothering to recognise that, at this point, other teams will be "contending".

2007? That's a whole new debate.
I'm more interested to know what folks thought of his 2006 performance as Gerolsteiner team leader. That's a major source of my sceptism.
Especially, as he won the Dauphine, that year and climbed the Tour slopes with the best.....
 
Mar 18, 2009
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Don't you love today's sport MV? These riders emerge who've won the Tour de B*tt Crack and the Circuit de Back End of Beyond and they're touted as Grand Tour winners largely because of the team they ride for. Funny how Leipheimer has been team leader on two strong teams and done b*gger all. Tends to rob a sport of its credibility when 35 year old string beans start time trialling like Cancellara.
 
bianchigirl said:
Don't you love today's sport MV? These riders emerge who've won the Tour de B*tt Crack and the Circuit de Back End of Beyond and they're touted as Grand Tour winners largely because of the team they ride for. Funny how Leipheimer has been team leader on two strong teams and done b*gger all. Tends to rob a sport of its credibility when 35 year old string beans start time trialling like Cancellara.

Most moronic post of the year so far. Do you even watch the races? I don't understand people who can't separate their like/dislike for an athlete from their performances. I can't stand Boonen, Cavendish or Lance but I can still appreciate their results.