Tyler's Book

[cineteq]

My comment was neutral. Simply observing the situation. Hamilton is making money and living a bit of celebrity life at the moment. Good for him.

Yeah, but for how long? If he would have given the opportunity to choose his path on life 10 years ago, I'm sure he wouldn't have chosen writing a book on doping.

 

[Dazed and Confused]

Moncoutié chose his own path. He prefers to be quiet, he wouldn't enjoy the spotlight, so he can't lead any crusade.

Understand, my point however is that it would be a non starter anyway. A book by Moncoutie would not gain any traction, there would be no interviews lined up at BBC or any other significant media and the whole thing would be forgotten within 2 weeks.

 

[Dazed and Confused]

Yeah, but for how long? If he would have given the opportunity to choose his path on life 10 years ago, I'm sure he wouldn't have chosen writing a book on doping.

I think he can go on for some time with this. He may be plotting a comeback to life as a DS or a consultant in some capacity. We tend to love these type of guys being part of the circus.

If Hamilton didn't dope, nobody would have heard of him in the world of cycling.

 

[Carols]

I sure am glad he eventually didn't. Didn't want a doper to make money off his public confession, so I made sure to not pay for the book to read it. It's bad enough I bought Lance's books once.

I got it from the library, so reading it didn't cost me a cent either Great book, I'm glad he spoke out and a well deserved award.

 

[Hugh Januss]

I think he can go on for some time with this. He may be plotting a comeback to life as a DS or a consultant in some capacity. We tend to love these type of guys being part of the circus.

If Hamilton didn't dope, nobody would have heard of him in the world of cycling.

We have probably not "heard of" most of the talented guys of his generation who refused to dope.

 

[Dazed and Confused]

We have probably not "heard of" most of the talented guys of his generation who refused to dope.

Quite, the clean boys didn't win anything and a book about riding on corn flakes and real orange juice while getting 42th in France ain't going to sell that many copies. Frankly, it all sounds rather dull.

 

[MacRoadie]

I got it from the library...

They still have those?

 

[Ride to forget]

Tyler was signing copies of the book today a couple of minutes from where I work in London, so I went along. I'm not bothered about signatures, but I wanted to thank him for standing up to the bullies and doing the right thing.

He said he wished he'd done it a lot sooner, but that comments like that meant a lot to him, so I don't regret spending pretty much my whole lunchhour queueing up in the cold - it was busy!


Dan Coyle was there too, I asked him what he had planned next but he said he didn't know yet. Either its a secret, or he's just been surprised by the degree of success and is enjoying it

 

[Chaddy]

Really good interview with Tyler on UK talkSPORT today, http://www.talksport.co.uk/radio/hawksbee-and-jacobs/121127/tyler-hamilton-tour-de-france-drugs-and-lance-armstrong-186269,



The books my next purchase on the kindle.

 

[peterh]

Tyler was signing copies of the book today a couple of minutes from where I work in London, so I went along. I'm not bothered about signatures, but I wanted to thank him for standing up to the bullies and doing the right thing.

He said he wished he'd done it a lot sooner, but that comments like that meant a lot to him, so I don't regret spending pretty much my whole lunchhour queueing up in the cold - it was busy!


Dan Coyle was there too, I asked him what he had planned next but he said he didn't know yet. Either its a secret, or he's just been surprised by the degree of success and is enjoying it

Well done.

Tyler was on german TV, together with Sylvia Schenk, who was the president of the german club for cycling from 2001-2004. She gasped for air when they showed McQuaid telling his mantra 'we had no idea and i am not responsible for anything', saying that she couldn't understand why he would say such a thing when it was an obvious lie. She also spoke about the 'donations' saying that McQuaid and Verbruggen always had quite different versions about the donations, making clear that in an organisation like the UCI this should never have happened in any case, no matter how they try to find excuses now.

At the end of the interview Tyler got asked whom else Del Moral has been working with, except cycling, and for a moment Tyler didn't want to answer, no idea why, but then he said 'tennis and football'. I wonder why he reacted like that, i thought that was already clear anyway?

http://www.zdfsport.de/ZDF/zdfporta...lton-Armstrong-leidet-jetzt-wie-ein-Hund.html

 

[Benotti69]

At the end of the interview Tyler got asked whom else Del Moral has been working with, except cycling, and for a moment Tyler didn't want to answer, no idea why, but then he said 'tennis and football'. I wonder why he reacted like that, i thought that was already clear anyway?

http://www.zdfsport.de/ZDF/zdfporta...lton-Armstrong-leidet-jetzt-wie-ein-Hund.html

Litigation i suppose would stop him naming names.

 

[VO2 Max]

Tyler was signing copies of the book today a couple of minutes from where I work in London, so I went along. I'm not bothered about signatures, but I wanted to thank him for standing up to the bullies and doing the right thing.

He said he wished he'd done it a lot sooner, but that comments like that meant a lot to him, so I don't regret spending pretty much my whole lunchhour queueing up in the cold - it was busy!


Dan Coyle was there too, I asked him what he had planned next but he said he didn't know yet. Either its a secret, or he's just been surprised by the degree of success and is enjoying it

Well done and thanks. I wanted to do pretty much exactly the same thing but ended up stuck in meetings all through the early afternoon.

 

[lean mean &green]

Quite, the clean boys didn't win anything and a book about riding on corn flakes and real orange juice while getting 42th in France ain't going to sell that many copies. Frankly, it all sounds rather dull.

ironically, this is the story i'm dying to hear.

 

[Semper Fidelis]

Moncoutié chose his own path. He prefers to be quiet, he wouldn't enjoy the spotlight, so he can't lead any crusade.

Understand, my point however is that it would be a non starter anyway. A book by Moncoutie would not gain any traction, there would be no interviews lined up at BBC or any other significant media and the whole thing would be forgotten within 2 weeks.

I disagree.

If "MANcoutier" did make a confession regarding his dazed and confused days at Cofidis it would not be forgotten within 2 weeks. He could tell how every time he got to the hotel room he had to wear a burlap sack over his head while being bound so he would not accidently bump into any doping products or doping teammates. How when he got on the team bus he had to wear a blind fold and ear plugs so that he does not need to see or hear about any doping he was NOT involved in.

 

[Speedzero]

Great review of Tyler's book, and possibly the best summation of the entire Armstrong affair I have read, in the London Review of Books:

http://www.lrb.co.uk/v34/n22/david-runciman/everybody-gets-popped

Highly recommended.

 

[lean mean &green]

Great review of Tyler's book, and possibly the best summation of the entire Armstrong affair I have read, in the London Review of Books:

http://www.lrb.co.uk/v34/n22/david-runciman/everybody-gets-popped

Highly recommended.

his assumption that a footballer's size is an indication of cleanliness is laughable tho.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

ironically, this is the story i'm dying to hear.

and the blood profiles I am keen to see too - although Mr "Clean Team" still refuses to be transparent in any way useful.

Just being able to finish and participate in the TdF would be a dream of up and comers. So let's see the ABP values from the domestiques so the new guys can see it can be completed clean.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

I disagree.

If "MANcoutier" did make a confession regarding his dazed and confused days at Cofidis it would not be forgotten within 2 weeks. He could tell how every time he got to the hotel room he had to wear a burlap sack over his head while being bound so he would not accidently bump into any doping products or doping teammates. How when he got on the team bus he had to wear a blind fold and ear plugs so that he does not need to see or hear about any doping he was NOT involved in.

I am over half way through David "cry baby" Millar's book now. And there's a few things that I'm puzzling over, but I have to say, the whole "you can win clean" thing is either the greatest truth out there, or there's a big chunk of the story missing.

Krebs Cycle says if Wiggins is doping, you'd expect his performance in short TTs to be far greater than they are, yet Millar beats a verifiably doped to the gills and other body parts Armstrong in a Tour TT in 2000 - apparently before Millar started doping...

And Millar also says his Hct was 40%.

Something...

 

[blackcat]

yet Millar beats a verifiably doped to the gills and other body parts Armstrong in a Tour TT in 2000 - apparently before Millar started doping...

And Millar also says his Hct was 40%.

Something...

is

not

right.



But we also heard from the Grand Warlock at Garmin, that he never doped on Credit Agricole, he had a phonecall from Roger Legeay, actually he called RL, and said he would "prepare with the erythropoetin" for a coming Tour to give him results. And Roger said, "non, non, non Yawna phornn ce n'est pas".

And he could not take cortisone when he eveball swelled up with a wasp sting.

ofcourse.



something...

 

[Dear Wiggo]

something...

stinks to high heaven.

I wish he had have written that book in 2007, before he became a PR zealot. The whole, "BC are sparkling clean" thing made me dry retch. Given the whole "2006 doping ended" no wait, 2008 a truce was called, but the published data points we have are:

November 2007, David Millar's retic% is 1.8% and through 2008 his Hgb builds, all the way to the middle of the Tour.
2008 track worlds, Hayles has a Hct of 50.3%, and intimate knowledge of the difference between world champs testing and olympic testing and how it means he should be fine for olympics.


In contrast, Tyler's book felt authentic, pulling no punches and not blowing smoke up so many stake holders respective outlets.

 

[Gregga]

Two things I'm wondering about after re-reading the 2000 TdF story :

1/ after stage 15 in Courchevel where he couldn't follow Pantani, plus stage 16 in Morzine where he lost 1:30 on Ullrich, Armstrong had a very good final ITT, did someone get in the book or elsewhere if he had another blood bag or additional EPO or anything else before that TT ?
2/ more generally, did you understand if the USPS team used EPO during that TdF or just EPO before and a transfusion during the rest day ?

 

[coinneach]

I am over half way through David "cry baby" Millar's book now. And there's a few things that I'm puzzling over, but I have to say, the whole "you can win clean" thing is either the greatest truth out there, or there's a big chunk of the story missing.

Krebs Cycle says if Wiggins is doping, you'd expect his performance in short TTs to be far greater than they are, yet Millar beats a verifiably doped to the gills and other body parts Armstrong in a Tour TT in 2000 - apparently before Millar started doping...

And Millar also says his Hct was 40%.

Something...

Millar was a REAL talent when he broke though.
My theory (without having read his book, but based on stories at the time), is that the only thing he lacked was application. By 2000, he was only concentrating on TT stages, and if you save yourself on other days, it quite possible to beat someone going for the overall.
What epo did to riders like him was to further dampen his motivation: why bother to train hard when you can just take a shot?
You'd imagine a 40%er getting a huge boost from epo.
But thats only if everything else is equal, and it never is.
Cheating rots your insides, you can see that in Tyler's book too.
I'll look out the reference, but there was another "scottish" sportman who cheated, David Jenkins: He won everything till he was 23 and started taking steroids. It didn’t help" he said, noting that he finished seventh in the 400-meter race that year (75) and in 1980. "I got hurt. I used too much. It was the beginning of selling my soul, really."[
Its a common problem with the Clinic that every performance variation is put down to drugs (Tyler even does that looking at Ullrich on a bad day and putting that down to a dodgy transfusion).
I have read, and would thoroughly recommend, Jean Bobet's "tomorrow we ride" He was the brother of the TdF winner in the 50's and rode the tour with him. He took drugs sometimes and not others. Didn't think it made much difference to his results, though he did crash more often when doped!

Good luck with the rest of the book Dear Wiggo, but remember Tyler has set the bar quite high!

 

[mountainrman]

Millar was a REAL talent when he broke though.
My theory (without having read his book, but based on stories at the time), is that the only thing he lacked was application. By 2000, he was only concentrating on TT stages, and if you save yourself on other days, it quite possible to beat someone going for the overall.
What epo did to riders like him was to further dampen his motivation: why bother to train hard when you can just take a shot?
You'd imagine a 40%er getting a huge boost from epo.
But thats only if everything else is equal, and it never is.
Cheating rots your insides, you can see that in Tyler's book too.
I'll look out the reference, but there was another "scottish" sportman who cheated, David Jenkins: He won everything till he was 23 and started taking steroids. It didn’t help" he said, noting that he finished seventh in the 400-meter race that year (75) and in 1980. "I got hurt. I used too much. It was the beginning of selling my soul, really."[
Its a common problem with the Clinic that every performance variation is put down to drugs (Tyler even does that looking at Ullrich on a bad day and putting that down to a dodgy transfusion).
I have read, and would thoroughly recommend, Jean Bobet's "tomorrow we ride" He was the brother of the TdF winner in the 50's and rode the tour with him. He took drugs sometimes and not others. Didn't think it made much difference to his results, though he did crash more often when doped!

Good luck with the rest of the book Dear Wiggo, but remember Tyler has set the bar quite high!

The example you quote is interesting. Drugs do not always help.

If you look for example at Dwain Chambers whose history is interesting in doping terms - because of the analogy to millar. Getting caught, eventually confessing all, and confessing in a book. Yet was vilified for it.

1/ He finally reached the "top circle" of sprinters and was training with such as Marion Jones, and montgomery. And it was there he discovered that the "best" were "doping". It is an interesting mind game that he been not as good, he would not have been invited there and might then have bypassed doping and the scandals. It must be quite disillusioning to get to the top table without doping, then find the top circle were doping: you can see how someone might then believe it was the only way to succeed.

2/ But the more interesting issue is that if you graph Dwain Chambers performances, arguably THG did not help him at all. His best from the doping period was only a couple of hundredths faster, which he would normally have achieved simply by being older and stronger, so arguably for him - the drugs achieved nothing at all, except he was injured far more often with muscle spasms. His performance are much the same and probably would have been much better clean had the world allowed him to compete. A conspiracy more or less prevented it. He was close to a world record at 60m only a couple of years ago.

3/ The biggest message for cycling is what happened after.
You have a choice. Stay silent. Work out the ban. Then compete again. Many sprinters have done so - and not been vilified on the circuit - many ex dopers have competed in europe..
Chambers spoke out (as millar did later) and it proved to be a big mistake. Since then unlike most other athletes he has been more or less ostracised from the sport with "UCI like" effective banning from all major european competition has extended the ban to a decade give or take.. It is hard to rationalize the way he was treated except that he was condemned for talking.

That should not be.

At least in David Millars case - the sport has allowed him "back in"- but it is certainly arbirtrary for whom that happens.. It allowed an unrepetant Vinokourov back into Astana, where it was clear from the book the "scapegoat" that UCI actively sought to prevent Rasmu returning - he had a signed contract for return to top level subject only to UCI not objecting, which contract was as a result lapsed.

The treatment should be uniform, and better for those who do confess. But not so good it makes it "too easy". I am all for four year bans mitigated to one to two for those who confess all. Indeed - if the base tarriff were 5, surely far more would speak out to get the remission. But not to the ridiculous of 6 months which is no punishment at all in USADA case. ie the base tarriff should be raised so that a 1-2 year ban looks good in comparison. But once the tariff is expired, that should be that. No further bar to competition. Arbitrary UCI blacklisting should not happen.

I actually think Tylers ban should be reduced for speaking out.

 

[spetsa]

The treatment should be uniform, and better for those who do confess. But not so good it makes it "too easy". I am all for four year bans mitigated to one to two for those who confess all. Indeed - if the base tarriff were 5, surely far more would speak out to get the remission. But not to the ridiculous of 6 months which is no punishment at all in USADA case. ie the base tarriff should be raised so that a 1-2 year ban looks good in comparison. But once the tariff is expired, that should be that. No further bar to competition. Arbitrary UCI blacklisting should not happen.

I actually think Tylers ban should be reduced for speaking out.

Let me get this straight. After all the nonsense that you spout in other threads, you now think that after testing positive twice, one should be given a third chance for cooperating with an investigation? With that logic, we will be watching Ricco 3.0 next year

You may as well give up. The mods give you some good advice of shutting your trap in one thread and you can't resist simply moving on to the next. I am not sure if this is an indictment of you or the forum in general.

 

[Susan Westemeyer]

Mountainrman, STAY ON TOPIC.

If you want to discuss general doping theories or whatever, open another thread for it.

This is your last warning.

Susan