UCI appeals Contador decision

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Oct 8, 2010
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DirtyWorks said:
Careful. I think you are generalizing a bit too much. This leads to the opportunity to disregard critics by citing statements like this. Common tactic designed to keep things just like they are.

Here's where I argue that USADA lacks the resources on their own to bring the principals that own the US cycling federation down. As the doping prosecutor of all sports in the U.S. I'd argue they don't have the resources to do anything well besides run OTC blood tests. Their 2009 record of successful prosecutions is mostly for THC.

Tailwind can bring a mighty phalanx of lawyers and work through congress with Fabiani the fabricator. Congress funds USADA. If USADA got too close to nailing a Tailwind principal, then watch that USADA funding dry up. Tailwind knows they can outspend and out maneuver USADA. It's the least of their problems.

While I agree with your general idea that the Contador excuse is plain wacky, watch those generalizations.

Right now as we speak, Travis Tygart is putting together a doping case against Lance Armstrong.

Weisel and his minions can't do anything about it. They are facing troubles of their own with a possible federal indictment related to their days with the Postal team.

Besides the THC cases you mention, this is who USADA brought down: Floyd Landis (remember him, the winner of the Tour de France?), Tyler Hamilton, the BALCO cases, Marion Jones, Tim Montgomery, Kirk O'Bee, Genevieve Jeanson, dozens of Olympic medalists in track & field, dozens of swimmers, Tammy Thomas.

Lance Armstrong is next. As for Thom Weisel, he was already sued 3 times by federal and state regulators and was fined around $15 million for various violations of rules and regs. Doesn't sound too untouchable to me.

And if you think for one minute Weisel will undo an investigation by trying to defund USADA though some type of covert lobbying effort with Congress, you've clearly been watching too many 9-11 conspiracy videos. Once a case is brought against Lance, it will be too late. The media will have a field day with it. Do you think one day in the middle of the USADA process with 37 articles a day being written about in all the major newspapers, that we will wake up and find out that USADA has been disbanded and de-funded? C'mon. Get a grip.
 
Jan 26, 2010
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Contador's cow found:

caption0329_1.jpg
 
Feb 10, 2010
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TERMINATOR said:
...Besides the THC cases you mention, this is who USADA brought down: Floyd Landis (remember him, the winner of the Tour de France?), Tyler Hamilton, the BALCO cases, Marion Jones, Tim Montgomery, Kirk O'Bee, Genevieve Jeanson, dozens of Olympic medalists in track & field, dozens of swimmers, Tammy Thomas.

All of those cases had positives, the equivalent of a fulcrum point for USADA. Let's agree to disagree and call it done. I don't want to hijack the thread.

TERMINATOR said:
And if you think for one minute Weisel will undo an investigation by trying to defund USADA though some type of covert lobbying effort with Congress, you've clearly been watching too many 9-11 conspiracy videos. Once a case is brought against Lance, it will be too late. The media will have a field day with it.

Cool down there a second. I don't really care what the media does. Nor should you. The media can't convict the guy of felony charges. The legal system in the U.S. enormously favors wealthy defendants. It's not a done deal. If Pharmador can walk, so can team Pharmstrong. It will be nice if the felonies happen, but I'm not certain they will.

TERMINATOR said:
Do you think one day in the middle of the USADA process with 37 articles a day being written about in all the major newspapers, that we will wake up and find out that USADA has been disbanded and de-funded? C'mon. Get a grip.

Also, that's an extreme and ridiculous response. Your faith in the media as the 'fourth estate' is unfounded. Funding is a large stick that Congress critters wield with great effect. I know they don't cover these things in school any more, but history is full of examples of the uses congress' budgetary (is that even a word?) powers.
 
May 27, 2010
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DirtyWorks said:
All of those cases had positives...

TERMINATOR said:
... the BALCO cases, Marion Jones, Tim Montgomery, ....

....

NOT!

NO positives.

Marion Jones was the most tested athlete ever. Remember?

Same as you know who. But he had more than 8 positives (Cortizone A+B, 6+ EPO).

Not trying to threadjack either. But, let's at least get some of the data correct. It isn't that hard.

Dave.
 
Jul 27, 2010
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CONI believed a ridiculous story of meat contamination by Colo.....cocaine contaminated chocolate made by the grandmother of a former Giro winner (Simoni), and somehow could never find Pantani, Rebellin, or Garzelli positive in an out of competition test.

But as I said, CONI at least gave Colo a one-year ban. And why didn’t UCI or WADA appeal it, if they felt so strongly that it should have been two years for a no-threshold drug? Is this another example of a not big enough case to bother?
Is cocaine really that performance-enhancing? Would it help Simoni any more than, say, Clenbuterol helps a ping-pong player? If not, why bother, any more, than according to you, it’s not worth bothering to appeal the Ovtcharov decision?
As for Pantani, et al., USADA somehow could never find LA positive in an out of competition test, either, despite, as you note, “USADA is the only anti-doping agency that routinely does out of competition testing.” Is it possible that the common thread in all these cases is not ineptness or corruption of the relevant federation, but the ability of dopers to avoid positives?

you have to be careful with that comparison to Italy. the national fed in Italy is the Federazione Ciclistica Italiana (FCI). CONI is the acronym for the Italialian Olympic Committee but CONI-NADO is often shortened to CONI in conversation. CONI and USADA would be pretty analogous actually.

I pointed that out in my post. But if you are going to argue that CONI and USADA are analogous, that undercuts Term’s claim that CONI is far more corrupt than USADA. Do you agree with him? And if you do, why do you think CONI is so corrupt, and USADA isn't? It would seem it couldn't be for the reasons Term gave.

Did Ovtcharov produce the meat and proved that is was contaminated? Because that is what Terminator says you must do in order to proof that it was not your fault. The answer is that he didn't and that he relied on establishing the likelihood of contamination. And that was accepted.

You again concentrate on the factual differences in the cases, which I have acknowlegded time and time again (so you can toss that straw man in the bin). But despite the factual differences, the basic legal strategy is the same being: If you cannot proof that the meat you ate was contaminated (and you can only do that if you provide the meat itself), you can get off by establishing that contamination is the most likely explanation.

So Ovtcharov had a stronger case than AC (I will grant you that), but he would still have been toast if they hadn't accepted his defense which was based on likelihoods instead of physical evidence or proof. The acceptance of that strategy by WADA is a clear shift from earlier policy.

Though as I have said in my previous posts I tend to agree with you that a shift may be going on, the argument that legal strategy can be the same despite factual differences is tricky. The problem is that when facts become overwhelming enough, we call it proof, not evidence. No, Ovtcharov did not produce the contaminated meat, and it could be argued that the evidence he did produce wasn’t sufficient to establish that he did eat contaminated meat. But one can surely imagine a case where an athlete could not produce contaminated meat, yet have enough evidence to establish with certainty that the meat was contaminated. If you could produce ten people who all ate the same meat you did, and they all tested positive, and some of them weren’t even athletes who would have any reason to dope with CB, I think anyone would regard this as proof of contaminated meat. If testing statistics in the country where you ate the meat showed that over 90% of the meat is contaminated enough to produce a positive, that would surely be accepted as proof.

So while it’s possible to look at all of these cases and say no one has ever produced the contaminated meat—an important point that Term has emphasized—it’s also possible that if enough indirect evidence accumulates, the actual smoking meat is not required. Ovtcharov’s case, I think we can agree, does not quite meet that test. But it does go further towards it than Bert’s, I would say, so for Bert to use the same legal strategy is not a given. The nature of strategy does not just depend on factual evidence, but on the strength of that evidence.
 
Jun 22, 2009
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Merckx index said:
I pointed that out in my post. But if you are going to argue that CONI and USADA are analogous, that undercuts Term’s claim that CONI is far more corrupt than USADA. Do you agree with him? And if you do, why do you think CONI is so corrupt, and USADA isn't? It would seem it couldn't be for the reasons Term gave.

consider my comments and Term's completely separate. the only thing i'm saying is that NADO's are more objective than national feds - that's hardly controversial. USADA ain't perfect but i trust'em to get things right a whole lot more than USA Cycling (USAC). Same goes for CONI-NADO and FIC, i'd trust the former more than the latter. making a national fed chiefly responsible for reviewing scientific evidence and interpreting a complex code is ridiculous. the RFEC decision should be viewed in this light.
 
Oct 8, 2010
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GJB123 said:
You only discuss the facts of each individual case and not the policy behind WADA's decision, that I was alluding to.

Are you so thick or stupid that you don't see the difference? Following your own logic the pong player's case should have been easy and air tight for WADA. Do I have to spell it? Here goes:
- Banned substance,
- Zero threshold,
- Strict liability,
- No evidence produced whatsoever of the contaminated meat.
should easily have spelled a 2 year ban if your description of WADA policy is in any way accurate.

Do you really think that WADA is as moronic as you are that they couldn't see it coming that more people (like AC) would start referring to Ovtcharov's case? They created a precedent there and me personally thinks they did so knowingly. They didn't just "forget" or just didn't "bother" to appeal because it was only a pong player. You can shout all you like, be as obtuse as you like, that doesn't make you less wrong. The sign posts are shifting on Clen-cases and that's it. Whether or not that will help AC remains to be seen as his case is not as strong as the pong players, but it is no longer beyond the realm of possibilities by any means.

Regards
GJ

I already told you ...WADA knows the ping pong player case is a joke. They decided not to appeal it because there's not significant money at stake, the sport is low profile, and they do not believe that Clenbuterol plays a significant role in helping a ping pong player win. In cycling, EPO, blood doping, and clenbuterol dramatically help athletes win big money.

There's a lot of factors that go into deciding whether WADA will appeal or not, and in addition to those I mentioned in this ping pong player case, is money. WADA as a limited budget and as such are perfectly content to let these Mickey Mouse cases slide.

These cases are NOT precedents as you claim. If Contador's stupid lawyers start citing these cases as reason to acquit their client, WADA will respond with things like: "Hey, Alberto, the ping pong player submitted a negative hair sample - how come you didn't?"

Contador's legal team are completely drunk with themselves just because they "won" their case before a corrupt Spanish federation comprised of people who toast champagne with each other when a Spanish rider wins a stage in a Grand Tour.

The arbitrators on CAS who hear Contador's case have no idea what the Vuelta even is. Contador and his stupid legal team are going to be in for a rude awakening once CAS renders its final verdict.

And if the prevalence of contaminated meat in Spain were so great - as Contador's team wants CAS and everyone else to believe - how come they couldn't produce a "cut of meat" that tested positive for clen? Neither could WADA.

How common could this contamination of meat be if no matter where you look or test for it, it just comes up negative?

And then couple that FACT with the FACT that dozens of cyclists have admitted to using clenbuterol to lose weight.......put 2 and 2 together and let me know if it equals 4. Contador and is legal team think it equates to 0 because they are drunk off their own sycophant self-worship.

Contador's legal team thinks RFEC is a legitimate court whereas anybody who knows anything knows they are a joke and CAS laughs at RFEC behind their back.

Contador should have consulted with Valverde about how his appeal went at CAS and why the outcome of his case differed so much from the one RFEC gave.
 
May 11, 2009
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Speaking to L'Equipe last week, Tour de France general director Christian Prudhomme indicated that he felt the saga had already dragged on for too long after news broke of Contador's positive test last September.

"What concerns us is that there should be a line drawn under this affair and a definitive decision taken," Prudhomme explained.

"CAS is sport's highest jurisdiction. We do not want a response but THE response - we have waited too long."


I absolutely agree - positives should be dealt with within several weeks - with maybe 6-month suspension plus a big fine for a first positive, then 2 or 4 years suspension for a second, and life ban for a third.
 
Jun 10, 2010
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TERMINATOR said:
And if the prevalence of contaminated meat in Spain were so great - as Contador's team wants CAS and everyone else to believe - how come they couldn't produce a "cut of meat" that tested positive for clen? Neither could WADA.
I agree with most of your post but this part is not true. Contador's team doesn't claim Spanish meat is likely to be contaminated. In fact, the opposite was a central part of their reasoning to turn "no significant negligence" (1-year ban) into "no negligence" (acquitted).
 
Jul 27, 2010
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I absolutely agree - positives should be dealt with within several weeks - with maybe 6-month suspension plus a big fine for a first positive, then 2 or 4 years suspension for a second, and life ban for a third.

While there were certainly a lot of suspicious delays in the beginning of the case, let’s not forget that the case would have been over now, and Bert sidelined, if RFEC had found him guilty. He could have appealed, but he couldn’t have ridden while he was waiting for the appeal process to play out.
So the main reason this case is dragging on is because of the RFEC decision. While I disagree with this decision, given that he was acquitted, he has to be allowed to ride. That’s only fair given, again, the decision that was handed down.

This is an unusual situation, though, hardly likely enough to happen often enough IMO in the future for us to worry about changing the procedures to avoid it. It only occurs when a rider is acquitted by his local federation, and UCI or WADA decides to appeal. I’m not saying this situation can’t happen again, but it won’t happen very often.

OK, obviously not everyone agrees with this. Some people have argued that the procedures should be streamlined/centralized, taken out of the hands of the local feds. That would avoid this possible limbo situation entirely, but there is a cost—no appeal of the decision would be possible. That’s really the heart of the matter, I think. Do you have a process that allows an appeal, or not? If all doping decisions go directly to WADA, it seems to me there is no possible appeal. Or if there is, say, to UCI, then again, limbo is possible.

IOW, the root cause of this situation Bert finds himself in is the possibility of an appeal. If either side can appeal a decision, then whenever a rider is acquitted, there is the possibility of an appeal by the prosecution, which will result in the situation we now find with Bert. But appeal is an integral part of most justice systems, and something I would think the doping procedures would not want to do away with.

I agree with most of your post but this part is not true. Contador's team doesn't claim Spanish meat is likely to be contaminated. In fact, the opposite was a central part of their reasoning to turn "no significant negligence" (1-year ban) into "no negligence" (acquitted)

This was the essence of Python’s “contradictory yet intuitive” description. Bert is trying to have his cake and eat it too. On the one hand, to use the rarity of Spanish meat contamination as a way of arguing that he bears no fault whatsoever for not avoiding eating that meat. But he is also trying to say that meat contamination is common enough that he could in fact have tested positive.

As I said before, I don’t think it works. It is either one or the other. The only way it could be both is if there were extensive contamination of meat that had somehow been completely hidden from public knowledge. But there isn’t. The testing statistics show very clearly that isn’t the case. Again, there may be extensive doping of cattle that is hidden from the public, but the meat from the cattle that reaches the market is not contaminated, not enough to cause a positive.

The only other argument is that some of the meat sold in Spain comes from other countries, particularly South America, where standards are non-existent or looser. But this meat is tested, too. So the only way to make this case is to argue that there is extensive fraud in the testing process, that large amounts of South American meat (which comprises about 15% of the total Spanish market) slips through border controls. But this claim is very far from proven.

IOW, for Bert's have-cake-and-eat-it-too argument to work, he has to argue that a huge problem with the Spanish meat testing system, easily large enough to rank as a major national scandal, has been discovered only through the diligent efforts of his lawyers. No one ever suspected it until he tested positive and his defense began digging. Come on.
 
May 27, 2010
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Merckx index said:
While there were certainly a lot of suspicious delays in the beginning of the case, let’s not forget that the case would have been over now, and Bert sidelined, if RFEC had found him guilty. He could have appealed, but he couldn’t have ridden while he was waiting for the appeal process to play out.

So the main reason this case is dragging on is because of the ...

money behind seeing Bert race, and the ability to pull strings...

All of which is making a mockery of the sport, and underscoring the fundamental need for ADA's.

Dave.
 
Jun 10, 2010
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Merckx index said:
This was the essence of Python’s “contradictory yet intuitive” description. Bert is trying to have his cake and eat it too. On the one hand, to use the rarity of Spanish meat contamination as a way of arguing that he bears no fault whatsoever for not avoiding eating that meat. But he is also trying to say that meat contamination is common enough that he could in fact have tested positive.
I don't think that's the case, honestly. You don't need clen contamination to be widespread to make one case of clen contamination possible. Technically, he could have eaten the only contaminated steak in the history of ever, and if he could prove it that'd be the end of it. Of course, he can't prove it, and his story is highly improbable, but finding contaminated samples or clen-using farmers wouldn't have changed that probability much. If he had actually proved a transfusion couldn't have produced those results, I'd be inclined to believe him, no matter how uncommon meat contamination is.

Of course it doesn't help that AC is a liar.
 
Dec 30, 2010
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Contador CAN'T know himself.

It is funny that Contador is trying to prove something that HE CAN'T KNOW HIMSELF !

If he is telling the truth;), all he knows is that he ate meat, and he tested positive for clen. He can't be certain that the meat was the source of the clen (the meat was never tested, and no-one else that ate the alleged meat tested positive either). He is only speculating that the clen came from the meat.

Yet, the RFEC has accepted Contador's speculation that it was contamination from meat. This is an absolutely laughable defence, and a shock that any self-respecting organization would buy it.
 
Jan 3, 2011
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Andynonomous said:
It is funny that Contador is trying to prove something that HE CAN'T KNOW HIMSELF !

If he is telling the truth;), all he knows is that he ate meat, and he tested positive for clen. He can't be certain that the meat was the source of the clen (the meat was never tested, and no-one else that ate the alleged meat tested positive either). He is only speculating that the clen came from the meat.

Yet, the RFEC has accepted Contador's speculation that it was contamination from meat. This is an absolutely laughable defence, and a shock that any self-respecting organization would buy it.

Well actually he does know himself. He knows if he doped or not. And if he didnt he knows that something he ate/drank must have been contaminated somehow, and then they decided that the source of the contaminated most likely was the meat since that was the only unusual thing he ata/drank that say.

But yes, he cant 100% prove that meat was the source. But his defense strategy was to "prove" that meat contamination was the only or most likely explanation by ruling out the options involving faul play (doping).


Now, I have been thinking. The Contador team has stated that if CAS dont aquit him he will take it to the further to fx a EU court or a Swiss court (due to CAS being situated there). Is there a risk that if that happens we could end up with a EU/Swiss court ruling that you cant use strict liability?
 
Oct 16, 2010
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Andynonomous said:
It is funny that Contador is trying to prove something that HE CAN'T KNOW HIMSELF !

If he is telling the truth;), all he knows is that he ate meat, and he tested positive for clen. He can't be certain that the meat was the source of the clen (the meat was never tested, and no-one else that ate the alleged meat tested positive either). He is only speculating that the clen came from the meat.
Yet, the RFEC has accepted Contador's speculation that it was contamination from meat. This is an absolutely laughable defence, and a shock that any self-respecting organization would buy it.

+1
I've also been wondering about all this (i.e. about the fake determinacy with which AC's team proclaims food contamination). The guy's got the words "I'm a lying sack of **** protected from above" written all over his face.
 
Sep 25, 2009
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Cimber said:
<snip> Is there a risk that if that happens we could end up with a EU/Swiss court ruling that you cant use strict liability?

Nothing can be excluded but imo (though i'm far from supporting the current wada strict liability interpretation) it would be a mistake for contador to focus his defence on the applicability of the issue as practiced by wada. time and again cas rejected such challenges. the power of a legal precedence almost automatically says - it would be a mistake. thus the supreme court challenge (of strict liability) would also deem a legal mistake.

however, i get a feeling that contador's case in cas will be largely between two sides using legal arguments (as opposed to technical-scientific). that implies that various current rules accompanying the wada strict liability principle will come under a severe review. it's far from certain that the particular cas will agree with wada's on all accounts of the rule.

A lot depends on the individual opinions of the 3-person cas panel. there are rumours that the uci may propose quentin byrne-sutton as the nominee.

this chap ruled once against the uci in the uci vs. valverde dispute.

but i see nothing in his record that he was/is a 'rebel' arbiter. his record is even and balanced.
 
Sep 30, 2010
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Merckx index said:
Though as I have said in my previous posts I tend to agree with you that a shift may be going on, the argument that legal strategy can be the same despite factual differences is tricky. The problem is that when facts become overwhelming enough, we call it proof, not evidence. No, Ovtcharov did not produce the contaminated meat, and it could be argued that the evidence he did produce wasn’t sufficient to establish that he did eat contaminated meat. But one can surely imagine a case where an athlete could not produce contaminated meat, yet have enough evidence to establish with certainty that the meat was contaminated. If you could produce ten people who all ate the same meat you did, and they all tested positive, and some of them weren’t even athletes who would have any reason to dope with CB, I think anyone would regard this as proof of contaminated meat. If testing statistics in the country where you ate the meat showed that over 90% of the meat is contaminated enough to produce a positive, that would surely be accepted as proof.

So while it’s possible to look at all of these cases and say no one has ever produced the contaminated meat—an important point that Term has emphasized—it’s also possible that if enough indirect evidence accumulates, the actual smoking meat is not required. Ovtcharov’s case, I think we can agree, does not quite meet that test. But it does go further towards it than Bert’s, I would say, so for Bert to use the same legal strategy is not a given. The nature of strategy does not just depend on factual evidence, but on the strength of that evidence.

I think we actually largely agree here, so I will stop pointing out those issues where I think you are misunderstanding, misinterpreting or misrepresenting me.

Regards
GJ
 
Feb 22, 2011
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Wouldn't this all be over if...

Wouldn't this be over (or much closer to being over) if UCI didn't sit on the test results until they were going to be published? This aspect of the case is really not receiving the attention it deserves. (I don't mean by posters here, but by the general public. This whole thing has stunk of a fix from the start.)
 
Jul 3, 2009
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Good news is that CAS seems to be able to decide by the end June. That pretty much will mean "Bye bye 'berto". I was quite astounded by this certain article on CN.com (http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/opinion-the-contador-saga-continues) which praised AC as maybe the best stage racer ever without even mentioning that there might be simple reasons for his success: Lots of luck (Tour 2007), strong team (Giro 2008), "cold-blooded" behaviour (Tour 2010) and - all the time - stiff upper lip full with the best PEDs and medical treatment available, somewhat protected by sports' governing bodys in Spain. (and maybe UCI). OK, this last point is speculation. But ACs defense is as well. I mean, he is speculating about some meat he is claiming he has eaten and which alledgedly was contaminated with Clen, et cetera.

It is a good thing that the UCI AND WADA appealed. And even if - worst case - the CAS decides in favour of AC, there might be a bright side: Andy Schleck could prove the author of the article I mentioned wrong by busting AC on the road.
 

Barrus

BANNED
Apr 28, 2010
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Cimber said:
Now, I have been thinking. The Contador team has stated that if CAS dont aquit him he will take it to the further to fx a EU court or a Swiss court (due to CAS being situated there). Is there a risk that if that happens we could end up with a EU/Swiss court ruling that you cant use strict liability?


Concerning an EU ruling, read the following court case:
Meca-Medina and Majcen v. Commission

I made a more indepth post about this some time ago. But really this here gives a good insight into the legality and legitimacy of anti-doping rules.
 
Sep 25, 2009
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let's revive this thread by restating some pregnant fact and attempting to look into their potential developments.

fact 1:

regardless of what anyone WANTS to see, in a rare unison of voices the two opposing sides (the uci and conta legal team) said virtually one and the same thing: 'there is no plasticizer mention in the current dossier'.

fact 2:

wada did not deny nor confirm any rumours about about the plasticizer test (past, present, or future) SPECIFICALLY with regard to Contador.

fact 3:

cas code allows for either wada or the uci to bring NEW EVIDENCE to the table

speculation 1

some, including l'equipe and seppelt, believe that the NEW EVIDENCE will be wada bringing up the plasticizer issue (either re-testing the samples or the results of the old ones reported by ard)

Speculation 2

the plasticizer test is not ready. that's why carpani objected to l'equipe speculation 1

my opinion: this case is dead in the water without ANY new evidence.

opinions ?
 
Jun 10, 2010
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My opinion is that they don't need the plasticizers test to nail Contador. It'd be a plus and make things much easier, but that's all. From the things all parties have said, I think the reported results are correct and that, if the test had already been approved, Contador would have been considered positive for blood transfusion, but I don't think WADA will try to use that evidence because right now, legally, it's not particularly strong and it would be a blow to the test if it was defeated like this before it was even battle-ready. It won't matter, meat contamination remains highly improbable and CAS won't look at Contador's defense documents with the "I want to believe" attitude of the RFEC.
 
May 24, 2010
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SiAp1984 said:
Good news is that CAS seems to be able to decide by the end June. That pretty much will mean "Bye bye 'berto". I was quite astounded by this certain article on CN.com (http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/opinion-the-contador-saga-continues) which praised AC as maybe the best stage racer ever without even mentioning that there might be simple reasons for his success: Lots of luck (Tour 2007), strong team (Giro 2008), "cold-blooded" behaviour (Tour 2010) and - all the time - stiff upper lip full with the best PEDs and medical treatment available, somewhat protected by sports' governing bodys in Spain. (and maybe UCI). OK, this last point is speculation. But ACs defense is as well. I mean, he is speculating about some meat he is claiming he has eaten and which alledgedly was contaminated with Clen, et cetera.

It is a good thing that the UCI AND WADA appealed. And even if - worst case - the CAS decides in favour of AC, there might be a bright side: Andy Schleck could prove the author of the article I mentioned wrong by busting AC on the road.
I started to read this thread just to see if there might be any worthwhile thoughts within it. Second post, second! And I came upon the above piece of trash. Rock on hater. The case is a lot more complicated than the simple thoughts you've scribbled here. Alas, more useless meanderings of the mind. I know some of you won't like this, and might feel the need to "straighten me out" but it won't work. As far as I'm concerned, this is just another useless thread that will degenerate into the usual vile vibes of many of the threads in this forum. Makes me wonder why I bother EVER reading some of this stuff. Over, and out of here.
 
Oct 16, 2010
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python said:
let's revive this thread by restating some pregnant fact and attempting to look into their potential developments.

fact 1:

regardless of what anyone WANTS to see, in a rare unison of voices the two opposing sides (the uci and conta legal team) said virtually one and the same thing: 'there is no plasticizer mention in the current dossier'.

fact 2:

wada did not deny nor confirm any rumours about about the plasticizer test (past, present, or future) SPECIFICALLY with regard to Contador.

fact 3:

cas code allows for either wada or the uci to bring NEW EVIDENCE to the table

speculation 1

some, including l'equipe and seppelt, believe that the NEW EVIDENCE will be wada bringing up the plasticizer issue (either re-testing the samples or the results of the old ones reported by ard)

Speculation 2

the plasticizer test is not ready. that's why carpani objected to l'equipe speculation 1

my opinion: this case is dead in the water without ANY new evidence.

opinions ?

I'm still waiting for part 2 of Seppelt's interview. Is that out yet? I haven't literally heared him say that the WADA is gonna bring in plasticizers, though I hope he'll say more about that out in the second part.

I personally think WADA brings in the plasticizers as circumstantial evidence. It would explain Pound's (?) statement eearlier on that the plasticizertest may be used as such in future cases. It would also explain Lemonde's article.
They don't usually speculate without reliable sources.