US prosecutors drop case against Armstrong/USPS

[thehog]

good post. armstrongs first tour wins got average people here more interested(especially because of the cancer angle), but it was the fact that info was widely available for the first time that made the sport start to catch on with a much broader audience. it wasn't just a couple of mags with racing news once a month, it was real time info, race results, team and rider websites, message boards and then forums to discuss. my local bike shop owner went from a small shop catering more to bmx and skateboarders (1999) with two or three cheap road bikes to retirement ten years later, with a business that was booming, and a shop filled almost exclusively with high end road bikes and components.

Thanks.

Being able to see him ride and punch up on the Euros meant his story was even bigger than it may have been if he was prominent in the 80s.

Phil Andersen back in the day was a darn good rider. I think 0.00000000000023% of the Australian population knew who he was in 1984. The guy almost won the Tour. I got to see photos of him in the UK Winning Magazine with I had to have imported to Australia 6 months after the Tour!

 

[HL2037]

Those darned Americans. Why do they keep interfering in Europe . . ..

Blind worship of narcissistic tyrants will eventually bring USA in the same position that Europe was in under WW2. Why do you think I have so much against Armstrong and the culture he brings with him?

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

...and the TDU is what? A monument? A Belgium Kermesse or a beer fuelled 6-Day race where as the riders would shoot up and drink on the inside of the track - I think you guys have a "romantic" view of cycling which is not exactly true. The sport was ridiculous and over the top before the American riders came in force. Ever heard of Euro-Trash?

We didn´t defend the doping. What we complain is the circus that´s been made of. And if Vaughters wins the fight vs UCI, it will all get worse (see my post about entrance, TV schedules etc.). We all will look back at 2012 as "romantic" and McQuaid as a good old guy (yes it sounds absurd now, but you´ll see). Yes this bad it will become when the franchise cycling BS with all it´s attending ills comes.

Can a mod please clean up the last few pages.

freedom of speech.

 

[thehog]

We didn´t defend the doping. What we complain is the circus that´s been made of. And if Vaughters wins the fight vs UCI, it will all get worse (see my post about entrance, TV schedules etc.). We all will look back at 2012 as "romantic" and McQuaid as a good old guy (yes it sounds absurd now, but you´ll see). Yes this bad it will become when the franchise cycling BS with all it´s attending ills comes.



freedom of speech.

?? McQuaid not a circus act? The Vaughters concept has a lot of good merit and it built on real anti-doping. Not window dressing anti-doping.

You cannot stop people being interested in the sport. You cannot preclude certain nationalities from riding a bike! because it doesn't fit with the "euro" way.

Its crazy. I don't think the sport has sold itself to the US. Its not like the Tour de France is now being ridden in Atlanta!

It still massively a minority sport in the US. It will never ever ever be like it is in Europe.

 

[andy1234]

It's not as if I said that the americans tested positive for being *******s or anything.

This case says a lot about how things work in the USA. Under the glossy surface that nation is no more civilized than Afghanistan.

What fire, the disneyfication of a beautiful sport? There might have been doping in cycling before armstrong, but the americans have a way of turning everything into a tacky circus with no sense of real values. Making cycling into some parody of pro wrestling, thanks a lot!



In no other country would armstrong ever have gotten to the position to be able to polarize anything.

The "disneyfication" of the tour de france (because lets face it, most other races are still fairly old school), was well on its way before Armstrong.

I personally prefer being part of a huge sport, rather than the one man and his dog event it used to be.

As to your Armstrong point.....
The whole world embraced his story. Not just the US, so Im not sure what you are talking about.

Am I right in thinking you are from Denmark? If so, for such a small country, you have certainly played your part in sh**ing over this "beautiful sport"

 

[Race Radio]

Perhaps we can start another thread about how America ruins everything and keep this one about Armstrong and insults/gloating directed at me?

 

[palmerq]

Perhaps we can start another thread about how America ruins everything and keep this one about Armstrong and insults/gloating directed at me?

Yes lets do that.. without the insults and gloating obviously

stick to the topic of armstrong everyone, there is a political thread for the other stuff, and be nice to each other

 

[LarryBudMelman]

Perhaps we can start another thread about how America ruins everything and keep this one about Armstrong and insults/gloating directed at me?

I'm generally against editing, censoring, limiting, discussions.

First of all, I think your excellent contributions are even enhanced when contrasted with some of the O/T nonsense others including myself post.

It's pretty easy to sift thru junk and I think you can learn a lot when views that seemingly look wacky are allowed.

BTW, you're a great resource for everyone who follows this ongoing saga as granville pointed out.

 

[HL2037]

Am I right in thinking you are from Denmark? If so, for such a small country, you have certainly played your part in sh**ing over this "beautiful sport"

I am from Denmark, it says so next to my avatar so that's no secret. You do not see me defending any dane who has harmed the sport, and you certainly do not see me celebrating if they get away with it.

Edit: I cross posted with you, Palmerq

 

[LarryBudMelman]

The "disneyfication" of the tour de france (because lets face it, most other races are still fairly old school), was well on its way before Armstrong.

I personally prefer being part of a huge sport, rather than the one man and his dog event it used to be.

As to your Armstrong point.....
The whole world embraced his story. Not just the US, so Im not sure what you are talking about.

Am I right in thinking you are from Denmark? If so, for such a small country, you have certainly played your part in sh**ing over this "beautiful sport"

And "EPO LANCE" was memorialized on the mountains of France long before anyone but insiders knew the deal in the U.S.

 

[Benotti69]

<snip>

freedom of speech.

no, the argument about countries needs a new thread not this one.

i'm all for freedom of speech

 

[rhubroma]

Agreed. Has nothing to do with the US. Coca-Cola began sponsorship even before LeMond.

What took the sport from Europe was the Internet. It went from a sport whereby outside Europe you'd be reduced seeing photographs of the races weeks after it occurred in the cycling magazines and maybe a 30 second television report to having the race live. First it was text updates and pictures later that day to what you see today.

Armstrong was fortunate. His time of winning co-insidered with the boom in the Internet.

ASO are to be commended. They jumped on board the internet ship. They provisioned the journalists with the most up to date information in regards to the race. Whats held them back is the UCI in terms of bringing more technology to the race.

We shouldn't point the fingers as the US for the mis-carriage of justice. The Federal investigation had very little to do with cycling and lot more to do with fraud and good deeds paid in kind.

Also the sport is much bigger and better not because of America but
because of the Internet.

Apart from the sport being bigger being better, which is debatable, I think what you are frankly missing here, and I don't want to get into the rights and wrongs of various cultures and societies (history is filled with their accounts) beyond what is an irrefutable reality of our times, the zeitgeist: namely, no other State has made an impact on the type of world (especially, though not exclusively, in the West) we live in today, it's leading trends, moods and ideology, than the American superpower.

In this cycling case, Armstrong is representative of a particularly US way (and here the criticism stated above) of imposing itself around the world: unsubtle, spectacular, arrogant, prepotent with little regard for, in this sense of being ignorant of, local traditions and ways of doing things; which makes the newcomer difficult to like and hard to relate to, however gifted. He was called "the Boss" for his detached and authoritarian persona within the team structure and in bringing a streamlined, robotic and highly efficient corporate methodology to gaining results, but which lacked panache and was dismissive of tradition. All of which bears a particularly America imprint today.

If the internet had any role to play in it, then it was merely another instance of how American soft power has reshaped the world. But it is certainly clear that Armstrong could not have come from somewhere else, simply because no other country has the power and resources to market and, in many ways, culturally form such a champion. As if Belgium could have produced Rocky IV.
There is nothing exceptional about a dominant culture exercising its presence using the means it has at its disposal and in ways congenial to its nature, but we have to see and recognize it for what it is, by historical nature: an upsetting intrusion.

 

[LarryBudMelman]

You guys are right on here

Apart from the sport being bigger being better, which is debatable, I think what you are frankly missing here, and I don't want to get into the rights and wrongs of various cultures and society's (history is filled with their accounts) beyond what is an irrefutable reality of our times, the zeitgeist: namely, no other State has made an impact on the type of world (especially, though not exclusively, in the West) we live in today, it's leading trends, moods and ideology, than the American superpower.

In this cycling case, Armstrong is representative of a particularly US way (and here the criticism stated above) of imposing itself around the world: unsubtle, spectacular, arrogant, prepotent with little regard for, in this sense of being ignorant of, local traditions and ways of doing things; which makes the newcomer difficult to like and hard to relate to, however gifted. He was called "the Boss" for his detached and authoritarian persona within the team structure and in bringing a streamlined, robotic and highly efficient corporate methodology to gaining results, but which lacked panache and was dismissive of tradition. All of which bears a particularly America imprint today.

If the internet had any role to play in it, then it was merely another instance of how American soft power has reshaped the world. But it is certainly clear that Armstrong could not have come from somewhere else, simply because no other country has the power and resources to market and, in many ways, culturally form such a champion. As if Belgium could have produced Rocky IV.
There is nothing exceptional about a dominant culture exercising its presence using the means it has at its disposal and in ways congenial to its nature, but we have to see and recognize it for what it is, by historical nature: an upsetting intrusion.

Pharmstrong is the quintessential example of the "ugly American" and exploiting the basic stupidity of other ugly Americans is a cornerstone of his defense strategy so I definitely think this is a legitimate issue to bring up.

Surprisingly to many, Armstrong's political views are quite moderate and he's just the type of scumbag that you have to be to get stuff done in America. Stuff like HCR and not starting idiotic wars.

 

[Race Radio]

I'm generally against editing, censoring, limiting, discussions.

First of all, I think your excellent contributions are even enhanced when contrasted with some of the O/T nonsense others including myself post.

It's pretty easy to sift thru junk and I think you can learn a lot when views that seemingly look wacky are allowed.

BTW, you're a great resource for everyone who follows this ongoing saga as granville pointed out.

Freedom of speech is important, it lets us know who the idiots are

Thanks to everyone for the kind words. Don't mind the insults either. I am glad to give some people a brief respite of glee before this all continues....ugh. I think most were hoping this would have been done with by now. Looks like we have a couple more years of obfuscation to put up with

 

[Benotti69]

I dont agree with Armstrong making the sport bigger and better. It was never a one man and his dog sport, not in Europe. It gets more TV viewers because there are umpteen sports channels nowadays that have to put sport on 24 hours a day. A cycling gets some showing to break up the major sports.

The more money in the sport has meant the more expensive everything got from dope to carbon frames and everything in between.

 

[LarryBudMelman]

no, the argument about countries needs a new thread not this one.

i'm all for freedom of speech

I tend to disagree. Armstrong gets more than his share of jingoistic "American" support.

Chanting U.S.A. at U.S. v U.S.S.R. hockey in 1980 was one thing. I wish Americans would just STFU with that bs now.

Who controls where they're born anyway? National pride or any other type of ethnic/racial/regional pride is the sign of a moron.

 

[LarryBudMelman]

Chinese carbon?

I dont agree with Armstrong making the sport bigger and better. It was never a one man and his dog sport, not in Europe. It gets more TV viewers because there are umpteen sports channels nowadays that have to put sport on 24 hours a day. A cycling gets some showing to break up the major sports.

The more money in the sport has meant the more expensive everything got from dope to carbon frames and everything in between.

C'mon, you can get one of those Deng/Hong Fu pieces of $hit for 3 or 4 hundred bucks.

 

[Race Radio]

http://nyvelocity.com/content/features/2012/justice-servedon-platter

So what does that leave us? Did Armstrong’s hiring of Mark Fabiani finally pay off? The anonymous provacateur @theraceradio tweeted, “Those (who) wonder why Fabiani and his business partner Chris Lehane were hired now you know. In the White House Lehane worked daily with Clinton's Lawyer Lanny Breuer....who is now head of the Fed's Criminal division.” Or maybe the truth is less insidious. Maybe Birotte just didn’t have the stomach to take on a popular sporting hero in an election year.

Soon after this was posted their site was hacked. Funny how that happens.

Guess they did not want people to send a nice message the guy who ignored the investigators and GJ and let Wonderboy walk andre.birotte@usdoj.gov

 

[Benotti69]

Soon after this was posted their site was hacked. Funny how that happens.

Guess they did not want people to send a nice message the guy who ignored the investigators and GJ and let Wonderboy walk andre.birotte@usdoj.gov

You know you are doing something right when this happens.

 

[frenchfry]

Perhaps we can start another thread about how America ruins everything and keep this one about Armstrong and insults/gloating directed at me?

You must admit you sure got blindsided on this one. Good to see you are taking the piling on with philosophy.

Although I never assumed that Wonderboy would get his just due out of this, I am surprised at the way it ended. Will the truth eventually come out as to why the investigation was stopped?

Somehow I wish this would be easy to leave behind, but I think it will be a struggle. Who I really feel sorry for is Mike Anderson, from what I understand he is a true victim of the Armstrong steamroller. Betsy will be able to handle it, I am sure, as will Floyd and Tyler (though I do not see them as real victims).

Leave a little time for the fanboy victory dance, then back to work!

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

?? McQuaid not a circus act? The Vaughters concept has a lot of good merit and it built on real anti-doping. Not window dressing anti-doping.

You cannot stop people being interested in the sport. You cannot preclude certain nationalities from riding a bike! because it doesn't fit with the "euro" way.

Its crazy. I don't think the sport has sold itself to the US. Its not like the Tour de France is now being ridden in Atlanta!

It still massively a minority sport in the US. It will never ever ever be like it is in Europe.

I wish you´d be right. But reality of franchise sport-circus/profit only tells us different. Look at NFL for example. The players association decides what to test for and what not, the rest of it is taken care of (swept under the carpet) by the NFL itself. Better don´t wish for something like that. Once UCI is out, WADA will be out too, then you´ll have the "monsters of the midway" riding bikes. Nothing compared to today.

Better don´t wish for it....

 

[patricknd]

Thanks.

Being able to see him ride and punch up on the Euros meant his story was even bigger than it may have been if he was prominent in the 80s.

Phil Andersen back in the day was a darn good rider. I think 0.00000000000023% of the Australian population knew who he was in 1984. The guy almost won the Tour. I got to see photos of him in the UK Winning Magazine with I had to have imported to Australia 6 months after the Tour!

same thing here with lemond. we got a little piece on wide world of sports on saturday when an american was winning the tour for the first time. i thought it was the greatest thing ever, but for most it just didn't register.

 

[scribe]

Mods,

Can you put a lid on the America bashing in this thread? I've got a whole arsenal of smack I can talk about other countries, but I don't want to go there unless I get the OK from you. I see ferminal is quick to shield RR's feelings upthread from rightly getting the bashing he deserves, but I see USA is fair game.

So, can we start country bashing in here?

Thanks.

This is really what it's always been about, all along. It's a European sport that was dominated recently by doping Americans, who were doping to keep up with doping Euros. You gotta be an ******* to thrive in the peloton, and that is exactly what Lance Armstrong is.

The problem is, he is an American *******.

You guys can have your sport back. Time to let go of the Anti-Armstrong/American campaign. Unsticky the useless conspiracy threads and stop the witchhunt against the successful Americans.

 

[Velodude]

I wonder if Livestrong has also been "cleared" from upstairs.

This $100,000 donation by quote, "Lance Armstrong's Livestrong", unquote, to a politician's favorite charity in an election year has the blurred lines of a verboten political donation particularly as that charity is not into cancer "awareness".

Like to have been a fly on the wall to be witness to the governance of Livestrong to approve that contribution.

One of the problems of eye witness evidence relating to doping concerns the identity of the drug in the hypodermic syringe. Armstrong's counsel would zero in to create doubt if the witness could not prove the contents were a banned substance or just a simple vitamin.

However, USADA/WADA are fortunate that period was after the change to blood doping after the French EPO urine test was introduced in 2001.

The administering equipment is identifiably different and the team riders' autologous blood bags are required to be refrigerated and identified to each rider.

And it appears through Landis' emails the top ups were carried out en masse in full view of the team.

 

[The Gnome]

same thing here with lemond. we got a little piece on wide world of sports on saturday when an american was winning the tour for the first time. i thought it was the greatest thing ever, but for most it just didn't register.

True enough...I remember tho Sports Illustrated gave Lemond the athlete of the year award which was a pretty big deal...but you are right, it didn't measure much...