US prosecutors drop case against Armstrong/USPS

[Polish]

Enjoy this time while you can, it gets worse from here.

You've said this before.
"Enjoy it while you can fanboys..."
Back in November and before that too.
Said it many times. Blah Blah.

But now I finally agree with you.
It WILL get worse from here on out.
But only because it cannot get any better

Although, the predictions and analysis from the tin-hatters continue to get better and better.
Me and my ilk-mates say thanks

 

[on3m@n@rmy]

I can off course only speak for myself, but my problem with Armstrong is exactly that he is "a tyrant, a thug, a bully". My problem with USA is that a majority of americans apparently think that these dysfunctional characteristics are admirable qualities.

Americans like Armstrong because he is a compatriot who was the best in a very very difficult sport. they also love the story of the cancer comeback, of someone showing guts, fighting through challenges and the fact that they think he has done a lot for charity.

To make remarks about an entire people "admiring" negative characteristics such as tyrany is very offensive.

Exactamundo. Thanks, Hitch.

To echo Maxiton, Thank You Hitch! Not only was that an offensive statement, it was an inaccurate statement. But I'm not offended when the understanding of the offendor is lacking.

Well, to quote the original Klingon, "I see we have a long way to go".

 

[LarryBudMelman]

"Birotte’s decision may be reversed. If he made his decision for purely political reasons, he’s surely facing a department wide revolt right now. And if he was worried about prosecuting a popular sporting figure, he probably wouldn’t want to be perceived as showing favoritism towards the rich and powerful either.

"And this is where you come in.

"This is Birotte’s email address: andre.birotte@usdoj.gov. Send him an email if you think criminals shouldn’t escape prosecution if they’re wealthy and connected. Let him know that the government shouldn’t encourage whistleblowers like Landis and Hamilton to speak up against an immensely powerful figure, only to pull the rug out from under them. Tell him he shouldn’t unilaterally negate two years of Novitzky’s hard work. Get the word out on Twitter, Facebook, smoke signals, whatever. Feel free to post all of this on your site or blog. If this investigation was quashed for political reasons, it is our job as fans of our sport to make our voices heard."

See here.

Andre Birotte was a personal trainer while also working as inspector general. Check out the gear heads shown on the linked site.

http://www.mainjustice.com/2010/01/15/meet-andre-birotte-jr/

http://trainwesthollywood.com/trainers/andre-birotte-jr/

 

[LarryBudMelman]

Americans like Armstrong because he is a compatriot who was the best in a very very difficult sport. they also love the story of the cancer comeback, of someone showing guts, fighting through challenges and the fact that they think he has done a lot for charity.

To make remarks about an entire people"admiring" negative characteristics such as tyrany is very offensive.

Nonsense! You're choosing to be offended. I've heard many say about our warrior like stance, "bomb them back to the stone age" or words to that effect.

Many Americans don't see that as a negative but as our right.

Enough Americans went along with "Shock and Awe" to lend credence to HL2037's post.

 

[Maxiton]

Andre Birotte was a personal trainer while also working as inspector general. Check out the gear heads shown on the linked site.

http://www.mainjustice.com/2010/01/15/meet-andre-birotte-jr/

http://trainwesthollywood.com/trainers/andre-birotte-jr/

Interesting. (But this last link doesn't lead to anything ?) It's amazing to me that one guy can have such power. I think if there's enough push-back, though, he'll have to recuse himself or something. It just looks kind of fishy, to me, anyway.

Nonsense! You're choosing to be offended. I've heard many say about our warrior like stance, "bomb them back to the stone age" or words to that effect.

Many Americans don't see that as a negative but as our right.

Enough Americans went along with "Shock and Awe" to lend credence to HL2037's post.

They were being manipulated. That's what governments do. Americans aren't unique in that, far from it. And The Hitch is right: it is offensive to say that a people love tyranny. That's the same as saying people hate freedom. And in any case they love Armstrong, when they do, for exactly the reasons The Hitch stated. But maybe we can give this tangent a break finally, huh?

 

[stephens]

3. The controversy erupted when it became known through these leaks that the case was not dropped through potential problems of securing a conviction but at the political discretion of Mr. Birotte Jr. and suggestions there is a link to a mentor Senator involved in a cancer/abortion/family planning cause, to which Livestrong just donated $100,000, which gives rise to an apprehension of bias.

Since the Clinic likes a good conspiracy theory, perhaps you'd like to assert that New York Mayor Bloomberg's $250,000 donation to the same family planning cause last week was also an attempt to get Senator Boxer to pressure Mr. Birotte to dismiss the grand jury?

 

[phanatic]

Since the Clinic likes a good conspiracy theory, perhaps you'd like to assert that New York Mayor Bloomberg's $250,000 donation to the same family planning cause last week was also an attempt to get Senator Boxer to pressure Mr. Birotte to dismiss the grand jury?

I agree. To paraphrase Bush's favorite philosopher, some people give alms just so they may be seen doing so. No press being bad press, press for a media cause celebre is especially swell. And it is a shared cause as PP does breast cancer screening and - in its own way - works to prevent cervical cancer as well.

Also, Americans may like bullies somewhat: Here's Conan on the man occupying the bully pulpit.

 

[Velodude]

Since the Clinic likes a good conspiracy theory, perhaps you'd like to assert that New York Mayor Bloomberg's $250,000 donation to the same family planning cause last week was also an attempt to get Senator Boxer to pressure Mr. Birotte to dismiss the grand jury?

I did not know that Mayor Bloomberg was a target in a Federal investigation that came under the jurisdiction of Mr. Birotte Jr. as the litigant for the Federal Government.

Can you provide a link?

 

[MarkvW]

i agree mark.

he did more for cycling than ruin it. the only thing he ruined, is a lot of people's day that congregate on this forum. and they dont even know they are a minority

Armstrong is a wonderful example of the flaws of pro cycling.

 

[cprior]

I am still amazed about the eruption in this forum, two surprises in a row is way above everything imaginable.

We Western Europeans with sometimes decade-old prejudices about "America" should understand that our NATO allies and western-world-trendsetters react very harshly defensive since september eleven. I worked closely with them at the time and there was an immediate change in behaviour -- century-old "circled inside waggons" I presume.
And Americans should have every right to still shrug needle punches off like in the decades before.

Look at history and try to imagine a similar outrage about some gladiator from Rome, being critiqued and ridiculed from Belgae, Gauls & Celts and Romans alike.
What might be the judgement of an archaelogist finding elaborate written discussion about such a topic?

To de-invest emotionally might be a fair strategy for many of us involved…
I always held the (relatively) unimportance of national aspects in cycling very high. Visiting the Tour de France and experiencing the spirit where more or less everybody cheers for everybody is simply amazing and quite close to Hollywood's Star Trek utopia.
Now that the Black Socks are a thing of the past I think we should aim for that spirit, in daily actions.

 

[Abstainer]

I've not visited doping forums since about 2006 (hence my name) but against my better judgement, decided to have a look around and see what people are saying about the Armstrong business. I don't want to offend you all, but I can't help feeling that you are inhabiting some kind of bizarre quantum world with its own accepted paradoxes. So, we know that most cyclists dope. But when we look at Armstrong, the discussion seems to assume that no one else does. Someone earlier hinted that perhaps Heras might come and testify. Why should he? Heras was doping before he joined USPS, he doped at USPS and he doped afterwards. Beltran doped with Ollano, doped with Ullrich, doped with Armstrong and doped with his next team. Reading this messages, people seem to have convinced themselves that Armstrong is somehow responsible for the peloton doping, which I think is a rather massive leap. Surely, professional cycling is a classic arms race into which the entire peloton was drawn. Armstrong may be a villain, but he is a villain in a society of villains. I can't see that he is better or worse than any one else frankly.

The thing I find weird is that most posters here have clearly been following European road racing. And yet the thing you have been following has been fuelled by extensive blood doping since 1990 (peaking in about 1996). If doping is so abhorrent to you, then you've really put your bet on a bad horse!

 

[rhubroma]

Do they teach reading where you're from, or were you not paying attention that day? I said, "Mods: don't you dare clean up this anti-American clap-trap." (Not "America bashing".) And thanks for the enlightenment on European tradition - that would be the same tradition in which tyranny, torture, corruption, cronyism, and bully behavior play such a prominent role, that it was necessary to found a new country, this one, dedicated to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Perhaps you can understand, then, why some Americans have been isolationists.


With this European jingoism you cheapen and degrade the argument for clean sport.

I think, Maxiton, your many salient points about a secular papacy in an old world sport within the so called Old World, as well as a systemic tradition from the conquistadores to Nazi/fascism (which, by the way, gave rise to the very US state: just ask the "Indians" and the Mexicans – and blacks) having continental roots have an (obvious) historical merit, but what they fail to recognize is the critical nature of what's being debated here: namely, the particular brand (and I don't use that term casually) of persona that could only have been produced, today, from the other Atlantic shore.

That's obviously not the fault of the Europeans, just as it wasn't the fault of the Americans for having had their global hegemony basically served up on a plate in the form of two World Wars, when the very deep rooted rivalries, which politically as opposed to in a bellicose fashion are still being played out today in the present EU drama, caused a form of historical suicide: it's simply recent history.

My points, at least, were connected to this recent history, in light of particular styles and affinities. In these senses Armstrong represented a certain corporate and overbearing image that only America has known how to produce recently. Just look at US politics and ideology today and what's discussed in Europe. Nobody was debating the issues you brought up, but one relevant (above all) to these times: the way in which a hegmonic US culture imposes itself around the world. In this sense, Lance has been metaphorically indicitive of a much greater phenomenon and his non-case has offended the sensibilities of the part (again within the cycling context here) who have been subjected to it. And because it is America's historical moment (and no longer Europe's) and since the US isn't the recipient of what it diseminates around the world as a result, such backlash criticism is only the enevitable consequence of the privileges and honors the US superpower holds and in light of America's preponderousness over the Europeans.

So your comprehensible affirmations don't make irrelevant or unfounded those of the others, because they are simply out of context and off point. In other words, these things aren't mutually exclusive and to imply otherwise is a false and deliberately misleading casuistry, which someone as intelligent as yourself should avoid.

PS: And now to add insult to the injury, Contador receives his just punishment, but Lance walks "clean." There truly is no justice in this world.

 

[python]

my highly critical views on their foreign policy are no secret as i posted them in the appropriate part of the forum. however, a lot of posting in the last several pages went too far imo with the pro- and anti american rhetoric.

should we not appreciate the fact that some (if not the most) ardent critics of armstrong (both on and outside the forum) ARE americans who did not go along? lemond, betsy, Anderson... and the long list of the forum members starting with rr….not to mention the usada last time i checked IS american

the outrage should be directed - if proven - at the political system that renders justice principles (the very pride of most americans) useless !!

personally i’d like to know if that’s what actually happened. if affirmative, as i suspect, it would only add to my low opinion of armstrong and the system that allowed his myth flourish.

 

[rhubroma]

my highly critical views on their foreign policy are no secret as i posted them in the appropriate part of the forum. however, a lot of posting in the last several pages went too far imo with the pro- and anti american rhetoric.

should we not appreciate the fact that some (if not the most) ardent critics of armstrong (both on and outside the forum) ARE americans who did not go along? lemond, betsy, Anderson... and the long list of the forum members starting with rr….not to mention the usada last time i checked IS american

the outrage should be directed - if proven - at the political system that renders justice principles (the very pride of most americans) useless !!

personally i’d like to know if that’s what actually happened. if affirmative, as i suspect, it would only add to my low opinion of armstrong and the system that allowed his myth flourish.

I hear ya, but there is still a question of style that's relevant to the critical nature of this debate. And that's what's come under fire here, a style and manner that's connected to a certain culture and context. To some it's been offensive, to others they have been offended by it. Both voices have the same right to be heard though.

 

[luckyboy]

So I guess this discussion can be related to the Armstrong case huh

Please take it to the Cafe guys

 

[stephens]

I did not know that Mayor Bloomberg was a target in a Federal investigation that came under the jurisdiction of Mr. Birotte Jr. as the litigant for the Federal Government.

Can you provide a link?

Of course there is no link. Just like there is no link between Livestrong making a donation and the feds either. To even try to make that connection in the context of the events of last week surrounding cancer funding at Planned Parenthood and the Susan Komen organization is ridiculous.

But I suppose someone out there will allege that Lance is so powerful he convinced Komen to announce they were withdrawing funding from Planned Parenthood last week so that it would spur a bunch of donations to Planned Parenthood and Livestrong could make one, too and be able to blame it on that and not a quid-pro-quo for Senator Boxer?

 

[Escarabajo]

how is you crying going to make the world a better place? it isnt, so stop it!

Who said I am crying?

please respond to posts.

 

[luckyboy]

So I guess this discussion can be related to the Armstrong case huh

Please take it to the Cafe guys

..........

 

[BotanyBay]

The thing I find weird is that most posters here have clearly been following European road racing. And yet the thing you have been following has been fuelled by extensive blood doping since 1990 (peaking in about 1996). If doping is so abhorrent to you, then you've really put your bet on a bad horse!

The thing I find weird is that you believe it peaked in 1996. Silly boy, you've not been keeping-up on your clandestine methods.

-Bb

 

[Benotti69]

The thing I find weird is that you believe it peaked in 1996. Silly boy, you've not been keeping-up on your clandestine methods.

-Bb

No its not being silly, all part of the obfuscation that continues as the fear hasn't gone away ya know.

Picked 1996 as the year a TdF winner admitted to doping and after that he would like us to believe it was 'cleaner' no doubt.

I believe we will see a trend back to trying to deny the doping or at least make the argument that Armstrong took very little because he had just got over cancer bla blah......

 

[zigmeister]

What I find quite interesting is how the WADA spokesperson is making this claim on how they are going to use information gathered from the US Government investigation to do their own.

Which, I guess they have some agreement to share information. But not sure how valid this will be since the Fed's information was entirely conjecture and hearsay?

What does the WADA think they are going to get from a miserable failure of an investigation that will help them?

One word: Nothing!

If WADA thinks they are going to get something more relevant than Tyler, Frankie and Floyd and their "stories", they are crazy. Because if the case against Armstrong related to doping was valid and more than just he-said/she-said, they would have got the Grand Jury to indict him and press forward on their legal case in court.

Let me make another prediction that will surely come true as I did with this one, WADA is going to drop the case, or it will be entirely bogus and flawed.

 

[luckyboy]

I think they would have based a federal case on more than hearsay alone.

 

[Benotti69]

What I find quite interesting is how the WADA spokesperson is making this claim on how they are going to use information gathered from the US Government investigation to do their own.

Which, I guess they have some agreement to share information. But not sure how valid this will be since their information was basically entirely hearsay?

How do you know what the information is? have you seen Federal files?

Please let us know the detail.

What does the WADA think they are going to get from a miserable failure of an investigation that will help them?

I am pretty sure copies of all doping related files were made available to USADA throughout the investigation. Why not? Its not a crime to dope in sport.

Even now if they hand over the information they are not passing on information that makes up a criminal investigation are they? It is doping related matters.

One work: Nothing!

Nothing from nothing!

If WADA thinks they are going to get something more than Tyler, Frankie and Floyd and their "stories", they are crazy. Because if the case against Armstrong related to doping was valid and more than just he-said/she-said, they would have got the Grand Jury to indict him and press forward on their legal case in court.

WADA does not need to produce evidence for a criminal investigation to stand up to a GJ.

Let me make another prediction that will surely come true as I did with this one, WADA is going to drop the case, or it will be entirely bogus and flawed.

Since Armstrong is in the clear why are you bothered posting?

You obviously believe WADA will get nothing so why not head off to pastures new and not waste your time here telling us for the next 2 years what you know will be the outcome?

 

[Cal_Joe]

You must have read all the media reports as they have been not only linked but copied and pasted throughout this thread.

The timeline was:

1. As U.S. Attorney Andre Birotte Jr. announced at 5.00pm on the Friday of the Super Bowl weekend "his office" is closing the case, without providing the reasons, the presumption was from the faithful around the comments of media websites that LA had won and been vindicated.

2. Then from leaks to journalists various media sites reported (circa 4.00pm Saturday) this presumption was not substantiated but that it was a (political) decision made at the (personal) discretion of Mr. Birotte Jr., or directed to be made by Mr. Birotte Jr., without the due courtesy of consultation with or the knowledge of the hierarchy involved in the investigation.

3. The controversy erupted when it became known through these leaks that the case was not dropped through potential problems of securing a conviction but at the political discretion of Mr. Birotte Jr. and suggestions there is a link to a mentor Senator involved in a cancer/abortion/family planning cause, to which Livestrong just donated $100,000, which gives rise to an apprehension of bias.

Thank you for the timeline. Can you provide links to the sites you mention in your point #2 ?

Thank you.

 

[DirtyWorks]

If WADA thinks they are going to get something more relevant than Tyler, Frankie and Floyd and their "stories", they are crazy. Because if the case against Armstrong related to doping was valid and more than just he-said/she-said, they would have got the Grand Jury to indict him and press forward on their legal case in court.

Your use of scare quotes mixed in with subtle insults and topped off with failed logic doesn't work.

This is a system of justice. Evidence suggests it was interrupted by political influence. Had the system been allowed to work, maybe there would have been a different conclusion. Maybe. It might have been a tough case to go to a jury. We certainly know the Tailwind's trial lawyers would have an almost unlimited budget if it ever got to trial.

To use the lack of a grand jury prosecution as a reason there is/was no case is wrong.