USADA-Armstrong Phase II

[Maxiton]

It's become absolutely impossible to catch up, or keep up, with the earlier thread. Armstrong has had virtually his entire career vacated, and accordingly is shown as having won not a single Tour de France title. But it isn't over. The fight, I mean. You know it isn't over. We are merely moving into phase II of the denouement.

How many phases will there be? Who knows? But this seems like the perfect time to lock the old thread and start fresh with this new one. What say you?

 

[mewmewmew13]

It's become absolutely impossible to catch up, or keep up, with the earlier thread. Armstrong has had virtually his entire career vacated, and accordingly is shown as having won not a single Tour de France title. But it isn't over. The fight, I mean. You know it isn't over. We are merely moving into phase II of the denouement.

How many phases will there be? Who knows? But this seems like the perfect time to lock the old thread and start fresh with this new one. What say you?

Ok with me...
will it be from the stripping? Forward?

 

[Maxiton]

Ok with me...
will it be from the stripping? Forward?

Exactly. From the time he had his titles stripped - today, in other words. Everybody is complaining about the old thread being so long and dense and impossible to keep up with - and I agree - so let's start here.

 

[mewmewmew13]

Maybe all the intern types can keep the old thread as their own...y'know just carry on with the arguing there?

Not sure if we might need An official decree or not.....?

 

[Fausto's Schnauzer]

Cool!

Another chance of being post 10K!

 

[Race Radio]

Ok, here is an overview.

Armstrong did not to contest a hearing, that doesn’t mean there won’t be a report about his case.

http://www.usada.org/files/pdfs/usada-protocol.pdf

“USADA shall publicly report the disposition of anti-doping matters no later than five business days after … (2) such hearing has been waived.”

Additionally “After an anti-doping rule violation has been established, USADA may comment upon any aspect of the case.”

They need to give this report, with instructions, to the UCI. The UCI then has a "Choice" to follow the instructions of USADA or to take it to CAS. I doubt they would take it to CAS as they would lose quickly. CAS does have a process in place to review and rule on cases rapidly, this would surely qualify.

I expect the UCI to strip Armstrong of all results from Aug 1998 till today. Armstrong has threaten to sue USADA if he is stripped....but who does he sue? It is actually the UCI that would do the stripping so perhaps he files a lawsuit against Travis?

So USADA can release all the evidence they like, the question is how and when. For now Bruyneel, Marti, and Celya all are facing arbitration, this may effect when USADA releases the evidence. They may also just dump it all into the public at the same time they give it to them.

I understand that Armstrong was on the phone with Bruyneel yesterday trying to get him to drop the arbitration. Johan has a lot more to lose as he will be unemployable if he is sanctioned. He does not have the cash that Wonderboy has.

 

[pedaling squares]

That's the interesting part of this situation. Bruyneel needs to work, so he needs to fight this. It should take a good care package to get him to roll over and play dead a la Wonderboy.

 

[Race Radio]

That's the interesting part of this situation. Bruyneel needs to work, so he needs to fight this. It should take a good care package to get him to roll over and play dead a la Wonderboy.

The problem is Wonderboy needs to save what is left for his multiple legal fights and judgement. He has heavy exposure and limited earning potential

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

Ok, that sounds good so far. Nothing else expected from RR. He´s like mother who says everything will be all right son, don´t worry.
I need that from time to time. That´s why i love his posts...
So thanks yet again.

 

[mewmewmew13]

Thanx much for all the info RR.
Glad that USADA has the freedom to let the evidence see daylight and that you clarified this.

I'm sure that was an interesting call to JB from lance. Heavy subject matter.

 

[Maxiton]

Bruyneel might as well take the money and run. I mean, sure he needs employment but what's the point of even going into arbitration? He's going to face the same onslaught Armstrong would have faced - they were like tweedledee and tweedledum. What does he gain by arbitrating?

 

[ÅSBJÖRN BENKT]

there are two streams as we go forward. the process stream and the reality on the ground stream.

on the process stream, it remains unclear if the UCI or ASO will recognize the bans. will armstrong file with Sparks if the USADA reveal too much evidence? do they give the wins to someone else?

on the reality on the ground stream, people are now challenged as individuals to decide whether they still recognize armstrong as having won those tours. i tend to think most people will still continue to believe, doping or not, that he is the rightful winner, and that will extend to nearly all of professional cycling. there will be those that try to jump on the bandwagon and condemn him in the sport, but this will only heighten division and tension. it will likely be a very sore wound for the sport for many years with people asking why we don't go back and investigate Eddie Merkx etc. the fact that USADA went over the statute of limitations for armstrong and effectively let everyone else off for double crossing him, will leave a legacy of bitterness amongst pros and fans alike for a very long time.

 

[ÅSBJÖRN BENKT]

Bruyneel might as well take the money and run. I mean, sure he needs employment but what's the point of even going into arbitration? He's going to face the same onslaught Armstrong would have faced - they were like tweedledee and tweedledum. What does he gain by arbitrating?

i think the camps are divided. there is one school of thought that wants to test the witnesses. they think it will be quite easy to knock down the usual suspects like betsy, landis, hamiton in public hearings, and they hope that the real damaging people like Hincapie will refuse to testify, thus invalidating their written testimony. that's the johan camp. but armstrong seems to simply wants to ride his bike and do his charity - he genuinely seems sick of it all.

 

[Oldman]

Bruyneel might as well take the money and run. I mean, sure he needs employment but what's the point of even going into arbitration? He's going to face the same onslaught Armstrong would have faced - they were like tweedledee and tweedledum. What does he gain by arbitrating?

Thinking of what happens when he arbitrates and UCI "bidness" comes up as well as expansion beyond he/Lance: it is all downside. He will undoubtedly be dragged into as many legal cases either as defendant or witness as Lance if he arbitrates. They both put a call into Uncle Thom W before making a final decision to be sure.
Who gets saved is important as well. The lesser weasels populating USA Cycling, Och, Carmichael and probably more get spared indignity at least if more testimony is avoided. Unless, of course, USADA releases information that sheds light under their respective rocks as well. USADA has limited funds so it is doubtful they'll press too many issues.

It'd be interesting to assemble a tree of exposure if evidence is dumped.

 

[BroDeal]

Another chance of being post 10K!

I'm going for a consecutive title against these chumps who call themselves my rivals.

It is big time schadenfreude, but I am loving the response of people like Gree who cannot accept that the dream is gone. I can only imagine how dumbfounded Armstrong must have been feeling the last few weeks. He probably could not believe this was happening to him.

 

[Epicycle]

Bruyneel might as well take the money and run. I mean, sure he needs employment but what's the point of even going into arbitration? He's going to face the same onslaught Armstrong would have faced - they were like tweedledee and tweedledum. What does he gain by arbitrating?

A possible reduced sentence. He's probably hoping for 2-4 years. He's still young so he can serve his ban and then try to get back into the sport.

 

[Turner29]

he genuinely seems sick of it all.

Because he is on the losing end. Let the lawsuits begin, and if we are really lucky, indictment for fraud.

OTOH, there are so many people who do not listen to facts or understand law, that I fear if Armstrong faced a trial by jury, he would prevail.

Not on evidence, on idiocy. Just like OJ.

 

[ÅSBJÖRN BENKT]

Because he is on the losing end. Let the lawsuits begin, and if we are really lucky, indictment for fraud.

OTOH, there are so many people who do not listen to facts or understand law, that I fear if Armstrong faced a trial by jury, he would prevail.

Not on evidence, on idiocy. Just like OJ.

but johan is on the apparently losing end and not sick of it. i'm saying there are two different schools of thoughts on how to approach it. going back to the men's journal interview, lance seems to have been leading the dove camp.

 

[mewmewmew13]

but johan is on the apparently losing end and not sick of it. i'm saying there are two different schools of thoughts on how to approach it. going back to the men's journal interview, lance seems to have been leading the dove camp.

This may certainly drive a bit of a wedge between the two.
Differing opinions on the correct strategy for each...

Tempers flare ....plans hatched.....backstabbing....payback..
ooh, the possibilities..

 

[Carols]

Jensie talks; this is the kind of things we need riders to say

Voigt said a clear conscience is also the reward for avoiding the "short cuts" that lead to doping allegations and busts.

"[Thursday] I had to go to doping control after my stage win," he said. "And I know that even if they freeze it for 100 years and tested it with new methods 100 years from now, it's my win, because nothing is going to happen.

"There is nothing in my urine sample, so I can sleep," he continued. "I can go with my kids, go for a swim, go for a barbecue, go to the zoo, go geocaching and don't be afraid that people might point their fingers at me. I think that's really worth the effort. I'm trying to teach the kids: go straight in life and you will be rewarded for that."


That is what this entire proceeding is about; teaching the kids you don't have to cheat to be a winner!

 

[Race Radio]

Another interesting element will be how the public reacts in 4 months

Tyler's book is coming out at just the right time. Coyle is an excellent writer and it will be a compelling story. It will get significant coverage in both the mainstream and cycling media

Over the next few weeks much of USADA's case will be know and it will not be pretty. There will be very clear evidence of a cover up by the UCI. Not just of the 2001 ToS but also the 1999 Cortisone positive. It should also expose the actions by the UCI to try to insure the truth did not get out to USADA or the Feds. I also expect USAC to not be spared. The question is outlet for this info. It could be outside of any detailed report it gives to the media or UCI.

Multiple entities will launch lawsuits as soon as he is stripped. SCA is the most obvious but I expect sponsors to as well.

By the time any arbitration comes around for Bruyneel, Marti, and Celya the public will be well aware of what USADA is....even these goofy baseball writers who have been babbling about Lance all day.

And then there are the Federal cases.....save the best for last

The future does not look bright

 

[Maxiton]

How about this. How about after Bruyneel announces that he isn't going for arbitration, he says to himself, Wait a sec. Wait a sec [a la Governor Blogojevich], I've got something golden here [or at least silver] and I'm not letting it go, not for anything.

Maybe the whole idea behind his asking for arbitration is for LA, Weisel, et. al to "ask" him not to . . . .

 

[BroDeal]

I LOLed at this on Slowtwitch.

"LA now has more testicles than Tour de France titles."

 

[Stingray34]

Another interesting element will be how the public reacts in 4 months

Tyler's book is coming out at just the right time. Coyle is an excellent writer and it will be a compelling story. It will get significant coverage in both the mainstream and cycling media

Over the next few weeks much of USADA's case will be know and it will not be pretty. There will be very clear evidence of a cover up by the UCI. Not just of the 2001 ToS but also the 1999 Cortisone positive. It should also expose the actions by the UCI to try to insure the truth did not get out to USADA or the Feds. I also expect USAC to not be spared. The question is outlet for this info. It could be outside of any detailed report it gives to the media or UCI.

Multiple entities will launch lawsuits as soon as he is stripped. SCA is the most obvious but I expect sponsors to as well.

By the time any arbitration comes around for Bruyneel, Marti, and Celya the public will be well aware of what USADA is....even these goofy baseball writers who have been babbling about Lance all day.

And then there are the Federal cases.....save the best for last

The future does not look bright

This is becoming a Greek tragedy...a wily human uses his wit and cunning to get what he wants but is stripped by the gods. Obvious Oedipus overtones with mum-gfs-babymamas and all.

As far as the pop media goes, he seems to be winning the spin war for now. The great champion and hero worn down by petty, vindictive officials. Lots of references to raising funds for cancer research.

 

[ÅSBJÖRN BENKT]

Tyler's book is coming out at just the right time. Coyle is an excellent writer and it will be a compelling story. It will get significant coverage in both the mainstream and cycling media

if it's known that armstrong doped, then tyler's book explaining how it was widespread across the peloton and armstrong did what everyone else was doing, could be beneficial to armstrong. did you see his TV interview? most of it was a justification about everybody doing it.

The question is outlet for this info. It could be outside of any detailed report it gives to the media or UCI.

lol. sounds very vague. if it's not in the offical report then it will mean little.

And then there are the Federal cases.....save the best for last

that comes across as very vindictive. armstrong has technically at least lost all of his wins. you don't seriously want him to go to jail, do you? can't see the feds reopening that anyway.