USADA - Armstrong

[hrotha]

No, the case law on the jurisdiction issue is clear. His ability to get an appeals court to overturn it is slim to none and slim just left the building. It won't take them too long to kick his *** out of there too.

It's sh*t or get off the pot time, and I fear he will just get off the pot, but again, I hope I'm wrong.

Couldn't he do it just to delay things a bit more, hoping some kind of miracle turned the tide? At the very least he'd be delaying the moment when he has to give up any hopes of escaping this relatively unscathed. His lawyers must be advising him to keep stalling things - that's how they make money.

 

[BroDeal]

Oh, somewhere in this favored land the sun is shining bright;
The band is playing somewhere, and somewhere hearts are light,
And somewhere men are laughing, and somewhere children shout;
But there is no joy in Homerville — mighty Armstrong has struck out.

 

[ChewbaccaD]

Couldn't he do it just to delay things a bit more, hoping some kind of miracle turned the tide? At the very least he'd be delaying the moment when he has to give up any hopes of escaping this relatively unscathed. His lawyers must be advising him to keep stalling things - that's how they make money.

At this point, the USADA has no reason, nor do I think they will extend the August 23rd deadline. If he appeals, the only way they would need to stop is if the court ordered them to, and that won't happen because of the ease of determining the jurisdiction issue. Likelihood of prevailing is one of the elements considered in determining whether to issue a temporary order, and his chance of winning are nil. The court will know that, and any appeal will likely be disposed of quickly. He has not argument. This isn't unconstitutional. This isn't any different form thousands of challenges to forced arbitration, and SCOTUS has been clear in its rulings on the issue. Armstrong has no chance, but as I said, I hope he appeals so he will have to pay some more money to the USADA's attorneys.

I said all along that I thought the case law on this made it a pretty easy call, and I was right (as were others like MarkVW). People like Quickstepper, who tried to pretend there was an air of legitimacy to Armstrong's arguments, were just blowing the same smoke as their hero.

Three days. That's what he has right now.

 

[knewcleardaze]

August 23rd comes and goes with no response from Armstrong's camp.
What happens?

 

[ChewbaccaD]

August 23rd comes and goes with no response from Armstrong's camp.
What happens?

He is a guilty doper with all of the trappings of such an honor...

 

[131313]

I think Lance is going to surprise us all and confess to everything. While he is about the biggest a-hole that there could possibly be, how can he continue on like this. What about his family? Does he not ever think of them? Can't his wife or mother talk sense into the moron.

He could have gone that route when the federal investigation started, or even when it was ended. Instead he dug in his heels. It's too late for the tearful admission and Oprah appearance. I'm not even sure Oprah's still alive? Anyway, the denials are too recent and too unequivocal to go back on them now. He'll have to wait about 5 years from now to play that card.

As far as what he'll do now? I don't see any other option but to fight. He may as well since he's gone this far. The idea of not participating in the proceedings, taking his ban and then claiming that "the process is rigged, I never had a chance, so I wouldn't participate in their kangaroo court" sounds good on its face. He can still claim he's a victim and hope that much of the evidence doesn't get out. There are a few big problems with that strategy, though. First, USADA can put anything it wants to in its finding of fact, including whatever witness testimony they have (Google Kirk Obee vs USADA to get an idea). Secondly, the witnesses are all going to be getting sanctioned themselves, so even if they don't say a word the story will basically be out regarding who flipped on Lance (I'm talking about you, George). Lastly, there are the other cases out there.

In short, much of the evidence is going to get into the public domain anyway, so if he doesn't fight it he won't even have a chance to challenge the evidence. My guess is that they'll fight it and challenge any and all evidence, knowing full well they'll lose. They'll do it as part of the continued PR plot. It seems to be the strategy to which they've committed and I don't see them changing course at this point.

 

[BYOP88]

Has anyone used #constitutional yet?

I've used it, hope that's ok.

BTW can anyone link me the piece where Ligget said, he'd have to quit if Pharmstrong got busted(hopefully I'm not jumping the gun).

 

[BroDeal]

I've used it, hope that's ok.

BTW can anyone link me the piece where Ligget said, he'd have to quit if Pharmstrong got busted(hopefully I'm not jumping the gun).

Whoah! Two birds with one stone. Way to go Tygart.

 

[Pazuzu]

His only chance to come out of this with any chance of redemption is to take it like a man now. Be a man fir the first time in his life....

I'd like to see that for his own sake -- walk away from this with some dignity intact and then go about rebuilding his life. Perhaps he could dedicate himself to making sport clean so that younger athletes won't have the face the terrible choice he did to either dope or be left in the dust. All decent people would respect that. Here's hoping he does the right thing.

 

[ChewbaccaD]

He could have gone that route when the federal investigation started, or even when it was ended. Instead he dug in his heels. It's too late for the tearful admission and Oprah appearance. I'm not even sure Oprah's still alive? Anyway, the denials are too recent and too unequivocal to go back on them now. He'll have to wait about 5 years from now to play that card.

As far as what he'll do now? I don't see any other option but to fight. He may as well since he's gone this far. The idea of not participating in the proceedings, taking his ban and then claiming that "the process is rigged, I never had a chance, so I wouldn't participate in their kangaroo court" sounds good on its face. He can still claim he's a victim and hope that much of the evidence doesn't get out. There are a few big problems with that strategy, though. First, USADA can put anything it wants to in its finding of fact, including whatever witness testimony they have (Google Kirk Obee vs USADA to get an idea). Secondly, the witnesses are all going to be getting sanctioned themselves, so even if they don't say a word the story will basically be out regarding who flipped on Lance (I'm talking about you, George). Lastly, there are the other cases out there.

In short, much of the evidence is going to get into the public domain anyway, so if he doesn't fight it he won't even have a chance to challenge the evidence. My guess is that they'll fight it and challenge any and all evidence, knowing full well they'll lose. They'll do it as part of the continued PR plot. It seems to be the strategy to which they've committed and I don't see them changing course at this point.

Didn't know that about the Finding of Fact. Makes sense though as they would be under no obligation to withhold the information as the proceeding would be over if he refuses to arbitrate.

So closed proceeding it is. If he chooses that, do they still have the option to put the evidence in the Finding of Fact if he is found guilty? I am guessing they would as he would then be guilty, and this isn't a settlement where they would negotiate some agreement to keep the evidence secret.

 

[ChewbaccaD]

I'd like to see that for his own sake. To be able to walk away from this with some dignity intact and then go about rebuilding his life. Perhaps he could dedicate himself to making sport clean so that younger athletes won't have the face the terrible choice he did to either dope or be left in the dust. All decent people would respect that. Here's hoping he does the right thing.

Good one!!!!

 

[veganrob]

He could have gone that route when the federal investigation started, or even when it was ended. Instead he dug in his heels. It's too late for the tearful admission and Oprah appearance. I'm not even sure Oprah's still alive? Anyway, the denials are too recent and too unequivocal to go back on them now. He'll have to wait about 5 years from now to play that card.

As far as what he'll do now? I don't see any other option but to fight. He may as well since he's gone this far. The idea of not participating in the proceedings, taking his ban and then claiming that "the process is rigged, I never had a chance, so I wouldn't participate in their kangaroo court" sounds good on its face. He can still claim he's a victim and hope that much of the evidence doesn't get out. There are a few big problems with that strategy, though. First, USADA can put anything it wants to in its finding of fact, including whatever witness testimony they have (Google Kirk Obee vs USADA to get an idea). Secondly, the witnesses are all going to be getting sanctioned themselves, so even if they don't say a word the story will basically be out regarding who flipped on Lance (I'm talking about you, George). Lastly, there are the other cases out there.

In short, much of the evidence is going to get into the public domain anyway, so if he doesn't fight it he won't even have a chance to challenge the evidence. My guess is that they'll fight it and challenge any and all evidence, knowing full well they'll lose. They'll do it as part of the continued PR plot. It seems to be the strategy to which they've committed and I don't see them changing course at this point.

Thanks 13. Yes I am sure you are correct in what his next moves will be, as is everybody else here. I really can't stand the guy, never could. I just thought the guy may have the last shred of decency to be honest and protect his family. But that is most likely more than he is capable of. Very sorry person he is

 

[MarkvW]

Couldn't he do it just to delay things a bit more, hoping some kind of miracle turned the tide? At the very least he'd be delaying the moment when he has to give up any hopes of escaping this relatively unscathed. His lawyers must be advising him to keep stalling things - that's how they make money.

Lance has no practical chance of delay from appeal.

Federal Courts are courts of limited jurisdiction. If there is no jurisdiction, then the court cannot act at all--except to determine that it has no jurisdiction and to enter an order reflecting that determination. Judge Sparks has just done that.

For Lance's case to impact WADA, three things must happen first: (1) the Court of Appeals must determine that Judge Sparks erroneously concluded there was no jurisdiction, then (2) either remand the case for another jurisdictional hearing or remand it back with a finding that jurisdiction was established by Lance, then (3) after jurisdiction is resolved, Lance asks Judge Sparks for an injunction against USADA.

The process described above takes months. The arbitration will likely be over by then. Additionally, Lance has an awful case. There is no way he will prevail in the Court of Appeals. Lance has milked the federal courts for all the delay he is going to get from them.

To put it another way, Lance needs an injunction and the only way he is going to get one is if he gets a court to conclude that it has jurisdiction to give Lance an injunction. Not bloody likely.

 

[131313]

So closed proceeding it is. If he chooses that, do they still have the option to put the evidence in the Finding of Fact if he is found guilty? I am guessing they would as he would then be guilty, and this isn't a settlement where they would negotiate some agreement to keep the evidence secret.

Yes, even if he asks for a closed hearing USADA can put whatever it chooses into the finding of fact. That's what they did in Obee's case (he went the closed hearing route). I know Glen Mitchell was less-than-thrilled to have it publicly aired that he narc'd on his own rider. Oh well. Likewise, they tossed Nathan O'Neil in there, just so there would be no confusion as to whether or not he really only doped with diet pills. Oops...

Other guys gave information and expected to get named in the judgement and weren't. I wish I knew how they made the determination, but honestly it seems pretty arbitrary*. Bottom line, I expect them to print the most damning evidence, because that's what they've done in the past.

*in thinking about it, they may have named Mitchell to make a point, like "come to us as soon as you hear something like this, not after we have to track your a$$ down and ask you questions". That's a guess on my part, but it wouldn't surprise me.

 

[Velodude]

August 23rd comes and goes with no response from Armstrong's camp.
What happens?

Similar to a default judgment in a court if a legal claim is made against you and you fail to produce a defense before a specified time.

The plaintiff or applicant, ie USADA, obtains the relief sought.

 

[Epicycle]

I think he'll probably take his chance with arbitration. He can pick Chris Campbell as his arbitrator. Campbell is the guy who voted as the minority for both Tyler and Floyd. In theory that gives Lance just one arbitrator to convince, though Campbell hasn't always sided with the athlete. It gives him the semblance of a chance, at least in his mind.

If he doesn't fight it, USADA can announce his suspension however they want. They aren't bound to the general, one-page press release they usually opt for. They could really blast him as a drug kingpin if they want to. There's the question of how specific they would get given the fact that Marti and possibly Bruyneel are choosing to arbitrate, but I have no doubt that USADA could make Lance look very, very bad with the way they announce his ban.

 

[ChewbaccaD]

Yes, even if he asks for a closed hearing USADA can put whatever it chooses into the finding of fact. That's what they did in Obee's case (he went the closed hearing route). I know Glen Mitchell was less-than-thrilled to have it publicly aired that he narc'd on his own rider. Oh well. Likewise, they tossed Nathan O'Neil in there, just so there would be no confusion as to whether or not he really only doped with diet pills. Oops...

Other guys gave information and expected to get named in the judgement and weren't. I wish I knew how they made the determination, but honestly it seems pretty arbitrary*. Bottom line, I expect them to print the most damning evidence, because that's what they've done in the past.

*in thinking about it, they may have named Mitchell to make a point, like "come to us as soon as you hear something like this, not after we have to track your a$$ down and ask you questions". That's a guess on my part, but it wouldn't surprise me.

I would think that in anticipation of the PR game that Armstrong will play if he is found guilty, they will want to air as much of the incriminating evidence as they have.

As you also point out, the guys who testify should be pretty easy to spot considering that they will be sanctioned, so there is no real reason to keep what they say private. I can see some of the support staff, but the not the riders.

 

[ChewbaccaD]

I think he'll probably take his chance with arbitration. He can pick Chris Campbell as his arbitrator. Campbell is the guy who voted as the minority for both Tyler and Floyd. In theory that gives Lance just one arbitrator to convince, though Campbell hasn't always sided with the athlete. It gives him the semblance of a chance, at least in his mind.

If he doesn't fight it, USADA can announce his suspension however they want. They aren't bound to the general, one-page press release they usually opt for. They could really blast him as a drug kingpin if they want to. There's the question of how specific they would get given the fact that Marti and possibly Bruyneel are choosing to arbitrate, but I have no doubt that USADA could make Lance look very, very bad with the way they announce his ban.

It'll be funny as **** when the arbitrator he picks says he is guilty also. To me, it sounds like the evidence is OVERWHELMING by pure definition.

 

[Kender]

August 23rd comes and goes with no response from Armstrong's camp.
What happens?

He agrees to arbitration or USADA proceed as stated and sanction him (lifetime ban), and strip him of all his titles.

 

[mewmewmew13]

I think he'll probably take his chance with arbitration. He can pick Chris Campbell as his arbitrator. Campbell is the guy who voted as the minority for both Tyler and Floyd. In theory that gives Lance just one arbitrator to convince, though Campbell hasn't always sided with the athlete. It gives him the semblance of a chance, at least in his mind.

If he doesn't fight it, USADA can announce his suspension however they want. They aren't bound to the general, one-page press release they usually opt for. They could really blast him as a drug kingpin if they want to. There's the question of how specific they would get given the fact that Marti and possibly Bruyneel are choosing to arbitrate, but I have no doubt that USADA could make Lance look very, very bad with the way they announce his ban.

The issue I have with the way you state this....USADA is not the one 'making' Lance look bad. He has done some awful things, the only blame lay with Armstrong.

 

[Cavalier]

He'd likely pick Campbell, so that's one vote in the bag.
But here's where it'll really get interesting: When Armstrong starts setting the PI's loose on the other two arbitrators to dig up everything and anything about their lives he can use to twist PR. See "perv" for precedent.

 

[Cavalier]

Incidentally, Armstrong's facebook page is slowly turning against him, but the true believers are just getting more incredible each day.

If I were Lance I would fight to the death against the Nazi USADA!!! This is so wrong what they are doing. They cannot take away your life's accomplishments, winning the TDF!!!! You passed over 500 drug tests!! The Judge Mr. Sparks even heavily critised the USADA!!! Why would they wait all of this time to charge you!!! It is very fishy the USADA will not release the evidence. This whole erroneous USADA doping case is extremely fishy!!! There is something going on with the witnesses etc. I bet they paid the witnesses 1000s of dollars. All of the so called witnesses are liars!!!

 

[131313]

I would think that in anticipation of the PR game that Armstrong will play if he is found guilty, they will want to air as much of the incriminating evidence as they have.

As you also point out, the guys who testify should be pretty easy to spot considering that they will be sanctioned, so there is no real reason to keep what they say private. I can see some of the support staff, but the not the riders.

Yep, that's what I'd expect as well. They'll spare who they can, but they'll balance that with need to make it very clear that they had incontrovertible evidence. I think all bets are off with all of the banned riders. Someone like Creed (not naming him specifically, so save any hate-mail), that will probably be a different story. I think they'll do their best to leave who they can out of it, but they need to make it clear for the PR reasons you mentioned.

 

[B Buckaroo]

If Armstrong does choose to go the arbitration path, then he will get to see what evidence the USADA actually has. At that point, he could make a more informed cost-benifit analysis as to the likelyhood of beating some/all of the charges.

Also, going the arbitration path will insert some time into the process - time before any sanctions are levied. He could always then hope for the intervention of a weasel of great power, one that could shut down the USADA initiated arbitration. Arbitration then becomes a stalling tactic, waiting for some other option to come along.

If Armstrong (or any of the other three respondants currently slated for arbitration) selects arbitration, can he subsequently back out and just put his fate to the mercy of the arbitrators?

 

[thehog]

Incidentally, Armstrong's facebook page is slowly turning against him, but the true believers are just getting more incredible each day.

If I were Lance I would fight to the death against the Nazi USADA!!! This is so wrong what they are doing. They cannot take away your life's accomplishments, winning the TDF!!!! You passed over 500 drug tests!! The Judge Mr. Sparks even heavily critised the USADA!!! Why would they wait all of this time to charge you!!! It is very fishy the USADA will not release the evidence. This whole erroneous USADA doping case is extremely fishy!!! There is something going on with the witnesses etc. I bet they paid the witnesses 1000s of dollars. All of the so called witnesses are liars!!!

Only 1000s of dollars? Surely they got more than that?