USADA - Armstrong

[Kender]

But what if Lance told the whole truth in front of the grand jury and that was the event that caused the termination of the investigation of the Posties/Discos, etc.? That would explain a lot.

Lance would have gotten the same treatment as Tyler, Floyd, George, etc. . ..

Is that not possible?

no. he never testified to the GJ so they didnt drop the case based on anything he said under oath there.

 

[ElChingon]

Wasn´t the 1st only for italy?

Yeah, it was a CONI ban - not a USADA/WADA ban.

YO! Yes, just Italy.

And we all know how scared he was by continuing to train Italian riders as recent cases have shown, he'll continue on.

 

[Maxiton]

"doesn't have jurisdiction for various reasons" All b.s. reasons, as far as I can tell.

"he is being asked to submit his entire professional life, past, present, and future, as well as his livelihood" No one asked for that.

an administrative procedure that was not designed for this purpose
It was designed perhaps primarily for adjudicating cases based on positive test results, but it's a standard arbitration procedure designed to hear and review all kinds of evidence and testimony, with explicit allowance for cases not based on positive test results.

Hey, they're not my claims. I'm just saying, in my amateur opinion the judge would not be looked at askance if he granted relief based on these claims. And that he probably won't. If he did grant it, he would be giving Armstrong the benefit of the doubt, and erring on the side of due process caution.

 

[Kender]

I read Armstrong's new complaint and actually thought it had merit. It might have had more merit had it been submitted the first time, but still it makes some strong arguments.

I mean, as I read it he is stating essentially that USADA doesn't have jurisdiction for various reasons, and, further (this assertion notwithstanding), that he is being asked to submit his entire professional life, past, present, and future, as well as his livelihood, to an administrative procedure that was not designed for this purpose, but rather was designed for adjudicating positive doping tests. Armstrong is saying there is no positive doping test and in any case this procedure doesn't allow for the due process he plainly has a right to given the nature and scope of such a charge against him, as well as the profoundly adverse consequences for him and his family in the event he doesn't prevail.

Basically, he's saying as I read it that the deck is stacked against him and the procedure unlikely to render a fair hearing, or a fair outcome.

I think there is plenty in here that would permit the judge to grant relief, if he is at all inclined to. On the other hand, the judge could make a case for not granting relief, too.

I think (or guess, rather) that the judge will let matters proceed, with the proviso that LA can bring the matter to court later should it not go in his favor. (Which of course it won't.)

Then will come the qui tam case, followed by criminal prosecution, both on the state level (perjury) and the federal level (everything else).

I'll bet they'd love to have a new cycling school in Venezuela.

you mean his entire professional life, past, present, and future, as well as his livelihood that he has built because he failed to follow the rules?

 

[Anonymous]

Right now the only thing holding back the media is fear of libel suits because there has not been an official finding. Every news article is careful to include a paragraph stating that Armstrong denies that he has ever doped, that he has never tested positve, that he passed two million tests, or a compilation of Armstrong's usual talking points. With an actual sanction, even if it comes about by Armstrong not fighting the charges, the flood gates will swing wide open.

One of the interesting parts of the Men's Journal piece was the author essentially admitting that Armstrong confessed off the record to using dope. The newspeople know Armstrong is a doper. It is an open secret, like JFK's affairs. They have been able to firmly state it. That day is coming. Hypocrisy of celebrities always makes a good story. Armstrong will be the John Edwards of cycling.

I was thinking more like the Pete Rose of cycling. Edwards is more hated for sure. You win.

 

[MarkvW]

no. he never testified to the GJ so they didnt drop the case based on anything he said under oath there.

How do you know he never talked to the GJ? How do you know he never sat in a room with Birotte and Novitsky (all alone with a stenographer) and told the truth?

 

[Maxiton]

you mean his entire professional life, past, present, and future, as well as his livelihood that he has built because he failed to follow the rules?

Yes. Exactly.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

What if judge Sparks rules in favor of Pharmstrong? Can USADA or WADA make a counter plea?

 

[Ninety5rpm]

Hey, they're not my claims. I'm just saying, in my amateur opinion the judge would not be looked at askance if he granted relief based on these claims. And that he probably won't. If he did grant it, he would be giving Armstrong the benefit of the doubt, and erring on the side of due process caution.

I don't think he's that stupid. What I don't understand is what LA's lawyers are thinking.

Okay, let's say his plan is to not ask for a hearing, and go with the kangaroo court story. I guess putting on this apparently big fight to keep from getting into it make sense. I think this is very likely. Consider the two possibilities.

1) He doesn't ask for the hearing - gets ban and loses titles.
2) He does ask for the hearing - gets ban and loses titles, plus people like George testify about his doping, and who-knows-what-else comes out in the process.

Seems like he's better off with option #1.

Of course, I think with #2 he can still appeal to CAS or whoever, while I believe with #1 he forfeits appeal. yes?

 

[Kender]

Hey, they're not my claims. I'm just saying, in my amateur opinion the judge would not be looked at askance if he granted relief based on these claims. And that he probably won't. If he did grant it, he would be giving Armstrong the benefit of the doubt, and erring on the side of due process caution.

or the judge could see it for what it really is.

An effort to stop the evidence from being heard in arbitration.

That's what this all boils down to. If the evidence (testimonies) USADA has ever sees the light of day (assuming there is any and we must do that for all this to have gone this far) then LA potentially faces finacial devastation and jail time for perjury.

 

[Iker_Baqueiro]

you mean his entire professional life, past, present, and future, as well as his livelihood that he has built because he failed to follow the rules?

I think this confirms Armstrong has entered the "bargaining" stage.

He knows he's lost and is now desperate and trying to cause pity.

About "his livelihood", that's BS, he's got millions and millions. He doesn't need to work another day in his life.

 

[PedalPusher]

I read Armstrong's new complaint and actually thought it had merit. It might have had more merit had it been submitted the first time, but still it makes some strong arguments.

I mean, as I read it he is stating essentially that USADA doesn't have jurisdiction for various reasons, and, further (this assertion notwithstanding), that he is being asked to submit his entire professional life, past, present, and future, as well as his livelihood, to an administrative procedure that was not designed for this purpose, but rather was designed for adjudicating positive doping tests. Armstrong is saying there is no positive doping test and in any case this procedure doesn't allow for the due process he plainly has a right to given the nature and scope of such a charge against him, as well as the profoundly adverse consequences for him and his family in the event he doesn't prevail.

Basically, he's saying as I read it that the deck is stacked against him and the procedure unlikely to render a fair hearing, or a fair outcome.

I think there is plenty in here that would permit the judge to grant relief, if he is at all inclined to. On the other hand, the judge could make a case for not granting relief, too.

I think (or guess, rather) that the judge will let matters proceed, with the proviso that LA can bring the matter to court later should it not go in his favor. (Which of course it won't.)

Then will come the qui tam case, followed by criminal prosecution, both on the state level (perjury) and the federal level (everything else).

I'll bet they'd love to have a new cycling school in Venezuela.

Put your Lance BS detector back on please! You are being baffled by BS!

Anyone can state anything in a pleading, but you better support it with some type of authority even if secondary! It doesn't take much investigation to see that USADA has authority over him during the years in question and they have a right to arbitrate even on a non-analytical finding of doping.

When you sign your license, it has an arbitration agreement, it doesn't say only positive findings of doping. It's all doping related matters. So in essence, going by Lance's logic he could have been trafficking in doping products, but hey, he wasn't tested positive.

All matters of doping are adjudicated through arbitration per the license holder agreement with the issuer. With appeals going to CAS for final decision.

 

[PedalPusher]

Hey, they're not my claims. I'm just saying, in my amateur opinion the judge would not be looked at askance if he granted relief based on these claims. And that he probably won't. If he did grant it, he would be giving Armstrong the benefit of the doubt, and erring on the side of due process caution.

There are no due process protections in arbitration. The only way he has a due process claim is IF USADA is declared a state actor. Arbitration is a private action, and judges raaaarrreeellllyyyy remove arbitration proceedings into court.

 

[ElChingon]

Hey, they're not my claims. I'm just saying, in my amateur opinion the judge would not be looked at askance if he granted relief based on these claims. And that he probably won't. If he did grant it, he would be giving Armstrong the benefit of the doubt, and erring on the side of due process caution.

I agree with your analysis, not that I want it to happen but its something that can happen, just look at the outlandish cases we've seen in history.

Thinking of the options if it does go through.

 

[Race Radio]

Much has been made of Armstrong's high priced and big named legal team.

Luskin is a big name.....but he had little to do with the 200 pages of garbage submitted in the last few days. That vomit was written by Lance's original paid liar, Tim Herman. Luskin is just a highly paid prop.

I am increasingly of the opinion that he will fold, not fight

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

Much has been made of Armstrong's high priced and big named legal team.

Luskin is a big name.....but he had little to do with the 200 pages of garbage submitted in the last few days. That vomit was written by Lance's original paid liar, Tim Herman. Luskin is just a highly paid prop.

I am increasingly of the opinion that he will fold, not fight

And what about "Due process (the 5th)"?
That one i fear the most.

 

[Anonymous]

Much has been made of Armstrong's high priced and big named legal team.

Luskin is a big name.....but he had little to do with the 200 pages of garbage submitted in the last few days. That vomit was written by Lance's original paid liar, Tim Herman. Luskin is just a highly paid prop.

I am increasingly of the opinion that he will fold, not fight

Can you imagine then the damage Herman has done to Luskin?

Herman bettter be looking over his shoulder...

The criminals eating each other alive. As it should be.

 

[TexPat]

Much has been made of Armstrong's high priced and big named legal team.

Luskin is a big name.....but he had little to do with the 200 pages of garbage submitted in the last few days. That vomit was written by Lance's original paid liar, Tim Herman. Luskin is just a highly paid prop.

I am increasingly of the opinion that he will fold, not fight

His Dogsbody.

 

[Iker_Baqueiro]

Much has been made of Armstrong's high priced and big named legal team.

Luskin is a big name.....but he had little to do with the 200 pages of garbage submitted in the last few days. That vomit was written by Lance's original paid liar, Tim Herman. Luskin is just a highly paid prop.

I am increasingly of the opinion that he will fold, not fight

Naah, he will fight until the very end. Figuratively speaking, if he's to die, he'll die while killing.

 

[Maxiton]

I don't think he's that stupid. What I don't understand is what LA's lawyers are thinking.

Okay, let's say his plan is to not ask for a hearing, and go with the kangaroo court story. I guess putting on this apparently big fight to keep from getting into it make sense. I think this is very likely. Consider the two possibilities.

1) He doesn't ask for the hearing - gets ban and loses titles.
2) He does ask for the hearing - gets ban and loses titles, plus people like George testify about his doping, and who-knows-what-else comes out in the process.

Seems like he's better off with option #1.

Of course, I think with #2 he can still appeal to CAS or whoever, while I believe with #1 he forfeits appeal. yes?

I think he does forfeit appeal if he chooses not to contest. So that leaves option #2. If I'm not mistaken, he can ask for the hearing to be closed, right? So he chooses option #2, a closed hearing, loses the titles and gets the ban, takes it to CAS, loses there, then takes it to court where it's found he has no standing. This exposes him to all kinds of legal jeopardy, both criminal and civil.

At some point he's going to have to decide to stay here and take his lumps - some gravely serious lumps, imo - or leave the country and never return.

or the judge could see it for what it really is.

An effort to stop the evidence from being heard in arbitration.

That's what this all boils down to. If the evidence (testimonies) USADA has ever sees the light of day (assuming there is any and we must do that for all this to have gone this far) then LA potentially faces finacial devastation and jail time for perjury.

The judge could decide that this is ultimately beyond the scope of an arbitration hearing and that it needs to be heard in a court of law in order to ensure a fair outcome. Probably, though, you are right, and the judge will say "Peddle your hornswaggle somewhere else." Especially being as he's in Texas and all.

Put your Lance BS detector back on please! You are being baffled by BS!

Anyone can state anything in a pleading, but you better support it with some type of authority even if secondary! It doesn't take much investigation to see that USADA has authority over him during the years in question and they have a right to arbitrate even on a non-analytical finding of doping.

When you sign your license, it has an arbitration agreement, it doesn't say only positive findings of doping. It's all doping related matters. So in essence, going by Lance's logic he could have been trafficking in doping products, but hey, he wasn't tested positive.

All matters of doping are adjudicated through arbitration per the license holder agreement with the issuer. With appeals going to CAS for final decision.

Well, that would certainly be the clear cut, non-softheaded way of looking at it. And that probably is the way it will go.

But you're probably right about my BS detector. Batteries might have been getting weak. Lol.

 

[mewmewmew13]

Naah, he will fight until the very end. Figuratively speaking, if he's to die, he'll die while killing.

This sounds like Toshiro Mifune in a samurai classic.

Did Armstrong not gloat that if he's going down then he will take cycling down with him?

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Much has been made of Armstrong's high priced and big named legal team.

Luskin is a big name.....but he had little to do with the 200 pages of garbage submitted in the last few days. That vomit was written by Lance's original paid liar, Tim Herman. Luskin is just a highly paid prop.

I am increasingly of the opinion that he will fold, not fight

Herman, no way.

That 80 page stuff could only have been written by Polish, to be fair one of the funnier posts he produced in recent times.

 

[Cavalier]

Probably the most interesting thing (assuming he does fight) would be how many fires he starts on the way, and people he places on the pyres those fires are beneath, because he has shown every willingness to slander and slur thus far. This has the possibility to be very cathartic for the sport if he contests.

 

[ChewbaccaD]

Prediction: Never gets past jurisdiction. Diversity doesn't exist. Arbitration is the agreed upon venue for disputes per contract as professional rider through various NGBs.

+1
That's my vote.

 

[Maxiton]

There are no due process protections in arbitration. The only way he has a due process claim is IF USADA is declared a state actor. Arbitration is a private action, and judges raaaarrreeellllyyyy remove arbitration proceedings into court.

I realize that. By "err on the side of due process caution", I meant that the judge would say such grave, sweeping charges, with grave, sweeping consequences require the protection of due process found in a court of law; ergo, no arbitration.