USADA - Armstrong

[python]

They most likely won't, but if the judge thinks the arbitration process for doping violations really does have severe due process concerns, and that cases like this (because they are so much like a criminal case) deserve to have the highest standard of due process protections, then he could rule the court has jurisdiction. He could rule that the issue being raised by Armstrong deserves a full hearing to determine whether courts need to get involved too

i think i am hearing what you saiyng, but , as i said before, due to lack of legal background this seems somewhat fuzzy to me.

...or to decide who should hear the case.

deciding who should hear the case would essentially equal imposing american federal court's opinion as to which sporting organization (in the absence of american federal laws regarding sports doping) should assume the results management - the uci or usada or cas. that seems to me unlikely because if memory serves there is already one SPORTING mechanism for that -cas. iirc, cas has been engaged previously in resolution of conflicts regarding sporting jurisdiction and or contracts.

federal courts should only reluctantly interfere in these matters me thinks.

 

[thehog]

will this mean another delay?

I’m surmising that this might play out in this manner. If it did occur I would suggest that arbitration would still go ahead in November with a new charge sheet delivered within 2 weeks. We’ll never see the charge sheet. It will be kept in camera.

The judge would want to protect the witnesses and their testimony. He’s already given Armstrong a rap for trying to stage theater in the court of public opinion. If Armstrong was to name witnesses or to leak information of the charge sheet the judge would have recourse to initiate prosecution.

I believe for this to move forward he’ll rule on arbitration citing its neither a federal courts jurisdiction to determine that is goes elsewhere and he’ll also mandate that the UCI to remove themselves from the process and act merely as an overseer to the process. He can only recommend this part in regards to the UCI but it would be suggested that if the UCI went against the ruling of a Federal judge it would constitute the end of them as a respected body. (he’ll have read their letters etc. and will see they have no part to play in the process).

I just see this is the fairest way to gain resolution. That’s what’s required here. To allow this to be locked up in appeals is not in the interest of the courts.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

LA's goal is of course not to get this heard in a criminal court, but not to have it heard at all. Could any judge possibly rule in that manner? On what basis?

I would like to hear an answer to this as well. For if Sparks rules in favor of Armstrong here, that doesn't mean USADA will just give up and lock the evidence in a vault.

I would think that even if Sparks rules entirely in favor of Armstrong, this isn't going away. But I fear that the Armstrong machine would immediately go into PR overdrive to announce he is completely innocent, and that USADA should be gutted for wasting taxpayer money in their kangaroo court, etc. etc. etc., and many in the media, and general non-cycling population would believe him. I feel so strongly about such a thing, I even feel that unless USADA strips him and fully bans him and clears CAS, and the following lawsuits, LA and his team will claim anything less as a victory, with a lot of vocal supporters on his behalf, and blurry media stories many ignore between that.

Again, this is why I favor a "Game of Shadows" leak of all the evidence.

 

[Turner29]

You're enormously overstating the possibility that Sparks will rule that way.

I agree. There is a possibility, but I would not term it a "real" one.

 

[thehog]

I would like to hear an answer to this as well. For if Sparks rules in favor of Armstrong here, that doesn't mean USADA will just give up and lock the evidence in a vault.

I would think that even if Sparks rules entirely in favor of Armstrong, this isn't going away. But I fear that the Armstrong machine would immediately go into PR overdrive to announce he is completely innocent, and that USADA should be gutted for wasting taxpayer money in their kangaroo court, etc. etc. etc., and many in the media, and general non-cycling population would believe him. I feel so strongly about such a thing, I even feel that unless USADA strips him and fully bans him and clears CAS, and the following lawsuits, LA and his team will claim anything less as a victory, with a lot of vocal supporters on his behalf, and blurry media stories many ignore between that.

Again, this is why I favor a "Game of Shadows" leak of all the evidence.

Nah.

But I’ll entertain the thought for a moment.

And remember as long as the USADA case is afoot (CAS or otherwise) Armstrong is banned from sport. His choice to drag it out.

Then:

Tyler’s book (salubrious stories)
Civil Case (evidence / media)
IRS (oh god please no)
Further federal charges (pay up)

By stopping one just allows the next one to follow more quickly.

He has so much to look forward to!

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

You're more optimistic than I am.

I still think a "Game of Shadows" leak cuts right to the chase. Plus it doesn't waste many resources, or let horribly corrupted organizations like the UCI get their filthy hands in the way.

I say get all the info out to good journalists, let them write a few articles and a book. Then let someone post every last bit of info and evidence to a wikileak type site. That would take care of it.

 

[ChewbaccaD]

i think i am hearing what you saiyng, but , as i said before, due to lack of legal background this seems somewhat fuzzy to me.
deciding who should hear the case would essentially equal imposing american federal court's opinion as to which sporting organization (in the absence of american federal laws regarding sports doping) should assume the results management - the uci or usada or cas. that seems to me unlikely because if memory serves there is already one SPORTING mechanism for that -cas. iirc, cas has been engaged previously in resolution of conflicts regarding sporting jurisdiction and or contracts.

federal courts should only reluctantly interfere in these matters me thinks.

Yes, correct.

 

[ChewbaccaD]

I don't think this is what he's trying to defend. Not even he, any more, would argue that point. Unless you expand "doped" to touch on a large constellation of ambition and manipulation. Certainly the USADA's case claims this much.

Good to see you back!

 

[thehog]

You're more optimistic than I am.

I still think a "Game of Shadows" leak cuts right to the chase. Plus it doesn't waste many resources, or let horribly corrupted organizations like the UCI get their filthy hands in the way.

I say get all the info out to good journalists, let them write a few articles and a book. Then let someone post every last bit of info and evidence to a wikileak type site. That would take care of it.

Depends on what the evidence is… releasing certain types of evidence into the wild minus context can backfire. Often it reflect poorly on the person who released the information and/or or put innocent people into the frame who wouldn’t be protected by the privileges of the courts.


The passport details are already out there. No one understands them. It requires context.

There is no one smoking gun here. It’s a litany of several elements making up the entire grandiose lie. One piece is dependent on another to reveal the entire story.

For example the SCA tapes. Armstrong’s caviler approach is most shameless but it didn’t break any laws. But once the background context is revealed those tapes become damming.

Frustrating to wait but I think it will be worth it… one way or the other.

 

[ChewbaccaD]

So you're saying that though it's unlikely, the court ruling could block both USADA and UCI from prosecuting any case through the usual procedure? If UCI were allowed to pursue the case, USADA could always appeal any UCI decision. But if both were frozen out of the process, then it would seem USADA would never even have a chance to appeal.

But wouldn't USADA still have to be involved? Let's say a court ruled--despite all the repercussions you mentioned--that this case had to be heard in court, like a normal criminal trial. USADA would still be bringing the case, wouldn't they? The only difference is that instead of arguing before an arbitration panel, they would be arguing before a judge or jury, and certain procedures like due process would be stricter. But even in that situation, which seems very unlikely for the reasons you mention, I still like USADA's chances. If their evidence is as strong as they imply, how is any court going to find against them?

LA's goal is of course not to get this heard in a criminal court, but not to have it heard at all. Could any judge possibly rule in that manner? On what basis?

Certainly that is his goal, and the process to get there is to spend enough money to gum up the works with more filings, and to keep trying the can to get kicked around enough that the UCI ends up with this, and they shut it down for whatever reason they can come up with. Right now, my guess is that Armstrong is threatening the UCI with revealing the information he has about the suppressed positive from the TdS. They have to try to get this thing out of the hands of the USADA for him to keep his mouth shut, then they have to suppress the information.

My guess is that no mater what, the cat is out of the bag and this information will see the light of day regardless. Armstrong supporters keep saying this is ONLY based on witness testimony (which is good evidence regardless), but the communications from the USADA have suggested that there has been evidence turned over by these people also. As hard as Wonderboy and the UCI try, I think it's too late to suppress this no matter what happens.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

Armstrong supporters keep saying this is ONLY based on witness testimony (which is good evidence regardless).

Thank you for pointing that out. McQuaid mentioned the witness testimony as well. A good deal of people don't seem to understand how accepting the courts are of eye witness testimony, and have been throughout history.

Just as an example, Jerry Sandusky was convicted almost 100% on eye witness testimony, almost entirely from his accusers. There wasn't one shred of physical evidence against him. McQuaid and LA's supporters wouldn't possibly have acquitted Sandusky if they were on jury at his trial, would they?

 

[DirtyWorks]

You're more optimistic than I am.

I still think a "Game of Shadows" leak cuts right to the chase. Plus it doesn't waste many resources, or let horribly corrupted organizations like the UCI get their filthy hands in the way.

I say get all the info out to good journalists, let them write a few articles and a book. Then let someone post every last bit of info and evidence to a wikileak type site. That would take care of it.

It wouldn't take care of anything. At minimum he'd be able to generate ridiculous appearance fees and then his team would use those resources to keep the myth alive and the UCI could go on about its business re-making fairy tales like Sky's record.

The situation would be worse than it is right now.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

Seems to me that Barry Bonds isn't exactly reaping a lot of benefits... Just sayin'.

I too hope justice really prevails here. I'm just pessimistic I guess.

 

[python]

someone remarked earlier how great armstrong's legal team is doing

...not so in the opinion of the authors of this legal analysis i stumbled upon today
http://www.boulderbusinesslawadvisor.com/

here's what they thought on the day of the texas federal hearing

Why did Armstrong’s legal team yet again disregard the local rules? It’s anyone’s guess … but headed into today’s hearing, it’s my guess that Armstrong’s legal team is clearly trying (desperately so) to get as much information in front of the Court as possible. Most likely, Judge Sparks read the sur-reply headed into today’s hearing – even if he says otherwise and doesn’t allow the filing to stand. The goal by Armstrong being just to get it all out and argue like mad today.

 

[BroDeal]

You're more optimistic than I am.

I still think a "Game of Shadows" leak cuts right to the chase. Plus it doesn't waste many resources, or let horribly corrupted organizations like the UCI get their filthy hands in the way.

I say get all the info out to good journalists, let them write a few articles and a book. Then let someone post every last bit of info and evidence to a wikileak type site. That would take care of it.

I am with Alpe. The information is more important than a ruling from arbitration. A sanction will provide scant details if Armstrong refuses arbitration. If he does go to arbitration then it will undoubtedly be done in secret, and a ruling will contain more conclusion than evidence that led to the conclusion.

The details about Armstrong's vendetta against those who told the truth, his enlistment of various people and businesses to aid him in that, the favors he got from the UCI, and on and on will force the UCI to step away. The press will tear Armstrong a new one when they find out he is cycling's version of John Edwards and his public persona is phony.

 

[BroDeal]

It wouldn't take care of anything. At minimum he'd be able to generate ridiculous appearance fees and then his team would use those resources to keep the myth alive and the UCI could go on about its business re-making fairy tales like Sky's record.

The situation would be worse than it is right now.

His PR people will do that anyway. Armstrong owns pieces of various businesses. He won't be hurting for money. It would become very difficult to maintain his image if there was a mountain of evidence made public that showed Armstrong was the exact opposite of his public persona.

 

[MarkvW]

Certainly that is his goal, and the process to get there is to spend enough money to gum up the works with more filings, and to keep trying the can to get kicked around enough that the UCI ends up with this, and they shut it down for whatever reason they can come up with. Right now, my guess is that Armstrong is threatening the UCI with revealing the information he has about the suppressed positive from the TdS. They have to try to get this thing out of the hands of the USADA for him to keep his mouth shut, then they have to suppress the information.

My guess is that no mater what, the cat is out of the bag and this information will see the light of day regardless. Armstrong supporters keep saying this is ONLY based on witness testimony (which is good evidence regardless), but the communications from the USADA have suggested that there has been evidence turned over by these people also. As hard as Wonderboy and the UCI try, I think it's too late to suppress this no matter what happens.

It can't be just a one-way power relationship between Armstrong and the UCI/USAC. If it were, Lance would have sued them too and they would have bowed down and agreed Lance was right. The power dynamic seems a little more complicated.

 

[BroDeal]

I don't have much faith in the argument that the courts have always found for the USADA in the past. In the past the USADA was not a participant in a federal investigation. That can be used to make a ruling only apply to Armstrong and not affect the entire anti-doping framework.

 

[TubularBills]

You're more optimistic than I am.

I still think a "Game of Shadows" leak cuts right to the chase. Plus it doesn't waste many resources, or let horribly corrupted organizations like the UCI get their filthy hands in the way.

I say get all the info out to good journalists, let them write a few articles and a book. Then let someone post every last bit of info and evidence to a wikileak type site. That would take care of it.

But wasn't that the intention of "From Lance to Landis"?

It was released in 2007 and we find ourselves back where we started.

Perhaps a Volume 2, supported by additional eyewitness testimony, documentation, DNA evidence, etc. would do the trick - but without a legitimate arbitration or court case to confirm... isn't it just business as usual?

I'm not sure how this would be different?

Haven't read Game of Shadows, but didn't the majority of the perps walk, granted with tainted reputations...

LA's reputation is already tainted, more-so now - but, even now he endures... public speaking, etc.

Memories are short.

 

[python]

I am with Alpe. The information is more important than a ruling from arbitration. A sanction will provide scant details if Armstrong refuses arbitration. If he does go to arbitration then it will undoubtedly be done in secret, and a ruling will contain more conclusion than evidence that led to the conclusion.

The details about Armstrong's vendetta against those who told the truth, his enlistment of various people and businesses to aid him in that, the favors he got from the UCI, and on and on will force the UCI to step away. The press will tear Armstrong a new one when they find out he is cycling's version of John Edwards and his public persona is phony.

imo opinion your analysis is missing one important element - the option to make evidence public always exists and is as easy as it has always been as an option of last resort.

however, the outcome of making a LEGALLY VALIDATED evidence public and the one attached to an official verdict 'a doper as it ever was' - that outcome is a true last nail in the proverbial coffin of armstrong myth...

i never understood you americans until i figured out that your entire national culture is based on legal definition of ethics...not talking about individuals but the american corporate culture at large...


hence an absolute importance of finishing the beast.

 

[BroDeal]

imo opinion your analysis is missing one important element - the option to make evidence public always exists and is as easy as it has always been as an option of last resort.

however, the outcome of making a LEGALLY VALIDATED evidence public and the one attached to an official verdict 'a doper as it ever was' - that outcome is a true last nail in the proverbial coffin of armstrong myth...

While that would be the ultimate positive outcome, I have little faith that will happen. I see releasing the details as a move that would make that outcome more likely because Armstrong's ability to enlist help will largely evaporate. When Contador's positive was leaked, the UCI was not only forced to step away from Contador, it was was forced to support WADA's appeal to CAS so the organization would not look corrupt. Armstrong's means of intimidate would also dissipate if he becomes publicly toxic.

 

[Hugh Januss]

Certainly that is his goal, and the process to get there is to spend enough money to gum up the works with more filings, and to keep trying the can to get kicked around enough that the UCI ends up with this, and they shut it down for whatever reason they can come up with. Right now, my guess is that Armstrong is threatening the UCI with revealing the information he has about the suppressed positive from the TdS. They have to try to get this thing out of the hands of the USADA for him to keep his mouth shut, then they have to suppress the information.

My guess is that no mater what, the cat is out of the bag and this information will see the light of day regardless. Armstrong supporters keep saying this is ONLY based on witness testimony (which is good evidence regardless), but the communications from the USADA have suggested that there has been evidence turned over by these people also. As hard as Wonderboy and the UCI try, I think it's too late to suppress this no matter what happens.

That seems like the very last thing Lance would ever want to reveal as that means admitting a positive test.
Perhaps his end game plan is to go down fighting, having made the point that USADA's investigation is a witch hunt and that they were out to get him all along. Eventually loosing some or all of his tour wins after a closed arbitration hearing, which he finally agrees to, but only with the caveat that the records stay sealed. He can then continue with a certain large part of public opinion still on the side of his being railroaded and wrongfully stripped of his wins.
Maybe not a great outcome as far as he's concerned, but much better than actually having to confess all.

 

[Jack (6 ch)]

Depends on the ruling, but if he rules for Armstrong, it would be incredibly hard for him to craft an opinion that sill allowed the USADA to hear the case. And in that case, the Federal courts would be taking jurisdiction, and they would hear the case.

.

I agree it seems very hard for the judge to deny USADA jurisdiction, but:

What if...
a. Sparks does rule for LA, i.e. that USADA has no right to run this process
b. It becomes a Federal matter as you say, but...
c. The Feds look at this and say: we reviewed this evidence earlier in the year. Not enough to run with. And...
d. Nothing ensues

Please tell me that c/d is an impossible chain of events.

 

[BroDeal]

That seems like the very last thing Lance would ever want to reveal as that means admitting a positive test.
Perhaps his end game plan is to go down fighting, having made the point that USADA's investigation is a witch hunt and that they were out to get him all along. Eventually loosing some or all of his tour wins after a closed arbitration hearing, which he finally agrees to, but only with the caveat that the records stay sealed. He can then continue with a certain large part of public opinion still on the side of his being railroaded and wrongfully stripped of his wins.
Maybe not a great outcome as far as he's concerned, but much better than actually having to confess all.

It seems to be that his plan is to fight it on procedural grounds and hope it never reaches arbitration or a court. This means that he will probably exhaust all possibilities to attack the procedure. He is looking for a "Hail, Mary." If Sparks rules against him he will appeal. Right now his lawyers are probably devising a new suit that takes a different tack than his current one. It is also possible that he will sue at every step of the way.

 

[sniper]

It seems to be that his plan is to fight it on procedural grounds and hope it never reaches arbitration or a court. This means that he will probably exhaust all possibilities to attack the procedure. He is looking for a "Hail, Mary." If Sparks rules against him he will appeal. Right now his lawyers are probably devising a new suit that takes a different tack than his current one. It is also possible that he will sue at every step of the way.

You guys are not taking the Bruyneel, Celaya and Marti cases into account. Is that deliberate? Don't you guys think the evidence that comes to light in those cases will have negative impact on Lance's ability to sue everybody and everything?