Usain Bolt/Carl Lewis

[horsinabout]

Sprinters use EPO to train harder than clean athletes. EPO helps recovering too. And more oxygen during race is not bad for muscles!

EPO will help sprinting, because you use oxygen to recover the glycogen stored in the muscles. You use only glycogen for a 10 sec sprint hence the term anaerobic, which means "without oxygen"

Edit. I would say that EPO, latest version of, could well be why we are seeing sub ten sec sprints for both running and cycling without being at altitude. It could well be the linchpin PED for modern sprinting performance improvements.

 

[Armchaircyclist]

Interestingly in the mens noone's got near the world records of 1500m and upwards for some years. Suggests they are having trouble developing an undetectable drug effective for these stamina events.

Or maybe the new athletes just aren't as good?

-------
One can only hope that most dopers go for the big money and fame. Then some obscure events like the 1500 are left mostly to clean athletes. 1500 is such a hard event that I really can't see how it's possible to recruit people to try to be best at this.
Of course the 1500m for women has been dominated by russian dopers, just like the 100m men has been dominated by jamaica/US dopers. But overall I think less doping is seen on the 1500.
It could also just be that old records were set on HIGH levels of EPO. Hard to tell.

 

[Le breton]

His 1967 performance of 10.17 was automatically timed, as was his 9.95 performance in Mexico. It represents a substantial improvement in 100m performance, even by today's standards.

Very funny.
Mexico being at 2300 meters altitude, the air pressure is reduced by about 22% w.r.t. sea-level.
Since we are talking about 10 m/s races, the gain from the altitude is equivalent to a 2.2 m/s favorable wind.

A 2m/s wind reduces the time by 0,16s
A 2,2 m/s wind by 0, 17-0.18 seconds

In other words, 9.95 at 2300 meters altitude is equivalent to about 10,12s - 10.13 s. at sea-level.

Case closed

 

[Briant_Gumble]

-------
One can only hope that most dopers go for the big money and fame. Then some obscure events like the 1500 are left mostly to clean athletes. 1500 is such a hard event that I really can't see how it's possible to recruit people to try to be best at this.
Of course the 1500m for women has been dominated by russian dopers, just like the 100m men has been dominated by jamaica/US dopers. But overall I think less doping is seen on the 1500.
It could also just be that old records were set on HIGH levels of EPO. Hard to tell.

Not sure about the men's 1500 but in most of the women's track events the records were set in the 70's and early 80's on high doses of anabolic steroids. The 100m world record was set in 1988 which is the earliest conceivable time for EPO use.

Using steroids can also raise your Haematocrit.

 

[Armchaircyclist]

Not sure about the men's 1500 but in most of the women's track events the records were set in the 70's and early 80's on high doses of anabolic steroids. The 100m world record was set in 1988 which is the earliest conceivable time for EPO use.

Using steroids can also raise your Haematocrit.

------
1500m world records are from EPO-era.
Men: Hicham El Guerrouj - 1998
Women: Qu Yunxia - 1993

The 100m record of Florence Griffith Joyner is not talked that much about because she died early and nobody likes to speak ill of the dead. But with 10.49 we all know there was more than a little bit of doping going on.

 

[The Hitch]

-------
One can only hope that most dopers go for the big money and fame. Then some obscure events like the 1500 are left mostly to clean athletes. 1500 is such a hard event that I really can't see how it's possible to recruit people to try to be best at this.

I don't think so. People who go for 1500 are different from those who do 100, so its not a case of dopers going for the more prestigious events.

However, a related theory one can propose is that because of the prestige in the 100m the authorities may be more willing to turn a blind eye there, whereas in small fry events they might as well try to keep them cleanish.

The 1500m record by Hicham is a bit like the alpe d huez record by Pantani, in that it was done in the late 1990's when testing was really crap.

So one could suggest that the doped 1500m record in the men is unchallenged because the governing bodies dont care so much for the 1500 so might as well enforce the doping. For the 100m where the entire global x<100 iq population is automatically seduced by Bolt blatantly plagarizing Juan Flecha's victory celebration, enforcing anti doping is about as sound a business plan as setting fire to the olympic stadium during the olympic ceremony. So they dont and the uber doped records of the 1990's and 2000's continue to fall.

Though imo even that is too simplistic because in the 800 Rudisha is smashing records WK's record from the 90's too.

 

[The Hitch]

Weird how this article mentions Usain Bolt as a client of Angel "Memo" Heredia having done an interview with him but doesn't give any direct quotes:

http://translate.google.com/transla...boxe/roy-jones-se-voit-en-jean-pascal-2052013

It's technically a legal association, correct?

Heredia gave evidence against Trevor Graham in exchange for leniency but escaped sanctions so Bolt can still work with him without sanctions from WADA. The only damage would be to his reputation.

Wonder where they got the link between Heredia and Bolt from. There were rumours during the olympics, but only rumours. If it was ever proven that heradia works with bolt that would be the smoking gun.

 

[Cloxxki]

The thing with both Bolt and Rudisha...they are several standard deviations taller than is typical for their WR setting events.

In many cases, a really tall kid will be discouraged to do sprinting, by lack of really tall sprint legends, pre-Bolt. Had the kid not been super fast early on, "wise men" would have tried to steer him away from it.
People tried to steer me away from mountainbiking due to my height and weight. Tried to convince me to take up TT, while really my long inseam meant lots of air drag, and I never was road-quick.
People told me they'd wait for me at a big summit as I was tall+heavy and from a pancake flat country, so...I waited for them.

If there were a run race between a double height top fit giant and mere human Bolt/Rudisha, who'd win? Note the giant would weigh 8x as much. That's a lot of muscle and lung for just 4x the air drag. Long distance might get restricted from the relatively thin windpipe. A bigger beast needs different dimension.

Lots of off-topic, but I mean to say there may not be a coincidence that both recent WR setters among the men are known for being taller than expected. I feel it might be a good trade-off to be taller in speed events. Less so on longer stuff as mentioned, but Rudisha also broke the old little man's WR by a relatively small margin (thus far).

 

[DirtyWorks]

Wonder where they got the link between Heredia and Bolt from. There were rumours during the olympics, but only rumours. If it was ever proven that heradia works with bolt that would be the smoking gun.

Victor Conte called him out. Victor is ALL OVER Heredia calling him Memo as pro-doping on the twittering feed.

Was Victor *the* source? I don't know. But my recollection is Memo worked for Conte at one point and then reappears as an elite "coach" in boxing and his true identity is established shortly thereafter.

Victor Conte's feed is both comedy gold and doping gold. It's not cycling at all, but still good.

 

[Briant_Gumble]

Wonder where they got the link between Heredia and Bolt from. There were rumours during the olympics, but only rumours. If it was ever proven that heradia works with bolt that would be the smoking gun.

The article suggests they directly spoke to Heredia.

If that is the case then he might have told them "off the record" that he works with Bolt, you can imagine it would be a pretty effective calling card for athlete's. If he doesn't work with Bolt then you would think he would call them back to remove that part of the article.

He's currently refusing to confirm or deny an association with Bolt.

Reading between the lines its damning but to convince a larger section of the general public quotes will be needed.

Lets not forget Heredia's now infamous interview with Spiegel, for anyone reading who might not know:

SPIEGEL: Mr. Heredia, will you watch the 100 meter final in Beijing?

Heredia: Of course. But the winner will not be clean. Not even any of the contestants will be clean.

SPIEGEL: Of eight runners ...

Heredia: ... eight will be doped.

SPIEGEL: There is no way to prove that.

Heredia: There is no doubt about it. The difference between 10.0 and 9.7 seconds is the drugs.

http://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/steroid-...drugs-professional-sports-long-interview.html

 

[mikehammer67]

I don't think so. People who go for 1500 are different from those who do 100, so its not a case of dopers going for the more prestigious events.

However, a related theory one can propose is that because of the prestige in the 100m the authorities may be more willing to turn a blind eye there, whereas in small fry events they might as well try to keep them cleanish.

The 1500m record by Hicham is a bit like the alpe d huez record by Pantani, in that it was done in the late 1990's when testing was really crap.

So one could suggest that the doped 1500m record in the men is unchallenged because the governing bodies dont care so much for the 1500 so might as well enforce the doping. For the 100m where the entire global x<100 iq population is automatically seduced by Bolt blatantly plagarizing Juan Flecha's victory celebration, enforcing anti doping is about as sound a business plan as setting fire to the olympic stadium during the olympic ceremony. So they dont and the uber doped records of the 1990's and 2000's continue to fall.

Though imo even that is too simplistic because in the 800 Rudisha is smashing records WK's record from the 90's too.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/800_metres_world_record_progression
0.2 sec
el g's record might be the toughest 3-26 is otherworldly
he was doped to the eyeballs
his rabbits and training partners were all on epo just to keep up with him

he was great viewing though

 

[Le breton]

------
1500m world records are from EPO-era.
Men: Hicham El Guerrouj - 1998
Women: Qu Yunxia - 1993

The 100m record of Florence Griffith Joyner is not talked that much about because she died early and nobody likes to speak ill of the dead. But with 10.49 we all know there was more than a little bit of doping going on.

That 10.49 was also helped a lot by wind. All people present said that the wind was well above 2 m/s. However the anemometer was stuck.

Her best time is in fact 10.54

 

[mikehammer67]

yes i believe i read that somewhere

 

[MrRoboto]

------
1500m world records are from EPO-era.
Women: Qu Yunxia - 1993

EPO? You mean turtle blood and caterpillar fungus. That was supposedly part of the winning mixture for the crazy chinese performances around this time.

Whatever it was, it must have been something special. Because it ended up giving Qu Yunxia the craziest record in track and field history.

 

[mikehammer67]

EPO? You mean turtle blood and caterpillar fungus. That was supposedly part of the winning mixture for the crazy chinese performances around this time.

Whatever it was, it must have been something special. Because it ended up giving Qu Yunxia the craziest record in track and field history.

http://www.alltime-athletics.com/w_1500ok.htm

my moneys on 29 or 55(SFH) as the clean WR

the original 'china train'
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c6UDXW8Uckg

 

[Freddythefrog]

No I can't be reading this ...

That 10.49 was also helped a lot by wind. All people present said that the wind was well above 2 m/s. However the anemometer was stuck.

Her best time is in fact 10.54

Her performances bettered Marita Koch in the 100 m and Silke Moller in the 200m.

These were both East Germans.

I used to go to church, I had been brought up as a child to do so every Sunday. Around 1988 I went to Church and listened to the Vicar telling us how we should all run like Flo Jo at Seoul. I thought, why couldn't I live in a nice cute World like he inhabited, rather than think she had found something so toxic, she could even beat the East Germans who had their girls on the pills from early teens.

 

[Briant_Gumble]

Her performances bettered Marita Koch in the 100 m and Silke Moller in the 200m.

These were both East Germans.

I used to go to church, I had been brought up as a child to do so every Sunday. Around 1988 I went to Church and listened to the Vicar telling us how we should all run like Flo Jo at Seoul. I thought, why couldn't I live in a nice cute World like he inhabited, rather than think she had found something so toxic, she could even beat the East Germans who had their girls on the pills from early teens.

It would be fair for her to be discussed as a cautionary tale at this point.

Darrel Robinson said on the Today show he sold her all kinds of drugs.

I'll probably get called classless, and definitely would if I voiced it out of the clinic but not learning from the mistakes of the past increases the likelihood of them being made in the future. Maybe these guys on GW15 whatever will die in their mid 30's if its used by bodybuilders it could be used by female 100m runners.

 

[eagleofditchling]

For starters, yes Carl Lewis doped w/cough medicine. But as heavy as others like Ben Johnson or those who came up after 1990? No, of course not. Not only do the raw numbers, longevity, and constant performance (no absurd performance jumps like Bolt) speak for him, but also the not changed physics during his career. The greatest clean(ish) athlete ever. No one will match him.

The drugs are just too big an advantage nowadays to not to take. While Lewis still could beat roid users like Johnson, i must admit he´d stand no chance vs. the gene, Epo, Blood, testosterone, HGH monsters of nowadays. Add in the wealth of todays athletes, there are no boundaries to dope high tech. In the early 80s the money just wasn´t there to built on a big dope program, yet Lewis manged to post the same numbers as Bolt in his earliest days.

Explain how EPO and blood doping helps in 100m sprint.

AS for the canadian guy who says they are good at spotting dopers, you didnt spot Mr Johnson - the IOC did.

 

[mikehammer67]

Explain how EPO and blood doping helps in 100m sprint.

AS for the canadian guy who says they are good at spotting dopers, you didnt spot Mr Johnson - the IOC did.

marion jones was on it

https://twitter.com/VictorConte/status/230506473854205952

i don't understand it all

 

[Briant_Gumble]

marion jones was on it

https://twitter.com/VictorConte/status/230506473854205952

i don't understand it all

Conte describes it as being something to do with the anaerobic respiration equation.

In humans:

Glucose - Lactate + energy

In yeast:

Glucose - alcohol + energy + carbon dioxide

Red blood cells deliver Oxygen and REMOVE CARBON DIOXIDE which is the important part for sprinters.

I'm not sure exactly how it works but with more red blood cells the breakdown products from the lactate I.e. carbon dioxide are removed more efficiently. It's complicated though because some of the lactate can be converted back to glucose once more Oxygen is present.

BTW on Iphone so I can't post arrows.

I'd say the vast majority of the sprinters who use PED's are on EPO (which is basically all of them).

 

[The Hitch]

I would add that if used at the event, at the worlds and olympics theres semis in the morning and qualifying the day before so there is a recovery aspect in the 100m final with which epo would help.

marion jones was on it

https://twitter.com/VictorConte/status/230506473854205952

i don't understand it all

WTF? Conte doesnt understand how it works.



He himself explained in an interview that epo like testostrone was a recovery drug which he gave his athletes so they could better recover

Is that his real account?

 

[mikehammer67]

This substance provides a big advantage to sprinters because it enables them to do more track repetitions and obtain a much deeper training load during the off season. EPO becomes undetectable about 72 hours after subcutaneous injection (stomach) and only 24 hours after intravenous injection.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/olympics/athletics/7403158.stm

 

[DirtyWorks]

Conte's Twitter

Victor Conte pins Memo to the "Jamaicans are doping" claim.

Memo seems to have a pipeline to Jamaica that he is afraid to acknowledge RT @Guruscience: @pimpgoz @paulmalignaggi conte brain washed you?

https://twitter.com/VictorConte/statuses/334192207139569664
I don't know who the people referenced in that quote are or how they fit into the claim.

A little earlier post: @Guruscience Notice how Memo ran away from my ? about Usain Bolt & Yohan Blake? Yes or No Memo? Will you run from the ? again?
https://twitter.com/VictorConte/statuses/334118498215288833

Another post when asked what the Jamaican's might be taking: My opinion. EPO & Test plus others RT

 

[DirtyWorks]

This substance provides a big advantage to sprinters because it enables them to do more track repetitions and obtain a much deeper training load during the off season. EPO becomes undetectable about 72 hours after subcutaneous injection (stomach) and only 24 hours after intravenous injection.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/olympics/athletics/7403158.stm

This is my understanding too. The key being the doping is not on the day of competition. It's weeks ahead of the competition. Months ahead of the competition the doping is even more powerful as it permits rapid recovery that can't be accomplished on bread and water alone.

I can't say there is no "race day" doping. Look at the Belarussian(sp??) shot putter. But, it's definitely not that effective any more.

 

[Ferminal]

I would add that if used at the event, at the worlds and olympics theres semis in the morning and qualifying the day before so there is a recovery aspect in the 100m final with which epo would help.



WTF? Conte doesnt understand how it works.



He himself explained in an interview that epo like testostrone was a recovery drug which he gave his athletes so they could better recover

Is that his real account?

Someone else asked the question, Conte gave the answer.