USP Postal Train in the Mountains...

[Anonymous]

wow, two hours and this ones not been put in the clinic yet. Impressive.

 

[Alex76]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-y38WZAtgc

alpe dhuez us postal sprint

that's pretty crazy... the first few minutes when they are all at full gas....out the saddle...

 

[El Pistolero]

I wouldn't call this quite badly, a complete massacre on a quite easy mountain stage:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t1_c8WHOnsY&feature=related

They only performed really bad in the Weening/Klöden stage.

That's the only thing I do miss from the Armstrong days, the first MTF was always really decisive. The last couple of years (Morzine, Arcalis, Tignes), outside of maybe Hautacam were quite boring and inconsequential.

Who would of thought! Cadel wasn't all that ugly 6 years ago!

 

[Carl0880]

Chaps,

was talking about this last night with my brother, which was the stage / stages where the USP 'train' totally ruled the mountains - i seem to recall it was the 2003 TdF - but can't remeber the stage itself...

Can anyone help - and possible point me to some online links with footage.

cheers all,

A

I think the year you are thinking of was 2004, I can't remember which stage, but one of them there was a group of 25 riders on the next to last climb or last climb, and 6 or 7 of them were USP riders.

The stage mentioned in this thread abotu Heras was the 02 tour, the first of the 2 stages in a row Lance won, Lance had to tell Heras to slow down because he was putting him in difficulties (La Mongie or Plat. de Beille was the stage finish). Both days the last 5 km were Heras, Lance and Beloki.

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

http://www.sportsscientists.com/2009/07/tour-de-france-2009-power-estimates.html

thank you that article actually confirms what I said.

 

[hrotha]

thank you that article actually confirms what I said.

Really? How on earth did you reach that conclusion? By not reading it, I'd wager.

 

[Mellow Velo]

Come on MV, that was a pretty silly comment.

Not sure to what you are referring as silly, so I can't comment.

Regarding the poor 2005 performance of Discovery domestiques.
Both Big George and Popo finished in the top 15, only 20 or so minutes down.
Azevedo was 5th in 2004.

Hence the confusion and collapse of the Disco game plan in 2006. The Portuguese climber should have got undisputed leadership, instead they hedged bets with Hincapie etc and flopped.
Jose finished 19th, over 38 minutes back.
Hincapie 72 minutes behind Floyd.

 

[auscyclefan94]

That was a silly comment. Firstly George got most of that time into the top 20 by a breakaway. Discovery were quite poor. They weren't as strong as other years in the mountains which was evident by how easily T-Mobile isolated them and still had numbers. T- Mobile had rocks in there heads and cdidn't have a clue about attacking Armstrong.

Seriously, who was the DS' of T-Mobile at those tours? Mario Kummer would have to be one of those guys. They were hopeless.

So badly, in fact, that George Hincapie won the Queen stage.

Two words: The Clinic.

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

Really? How on earth did you reach that conclusion? By not reading it, I'd wager.

the article shows rapid increasing of wattage when epo was introduced in early 90s and a stop in growing once the 50% barrier was in efect in 1997, despite improving equipment, diets, trianing methods etc. had doping methods been refined as you said, it should've kept growing exponentially.

 

[on3m@n@rmy]

hincapie outclimbing azevedo. do we need any more prof? on normal conditions a guy like azevedo would drop hincapie 100 out of 100 times.

also after a rest day . . . its so obvious its almost sad

Hincapie never outclimbed the Ace. The only way GH could beat the Ace up the steeps was if GH was out in a break.

 

[hrotha]

the article shows rapid increasing of wattage when epo was introduced in early 90s and a stop in growing once the 50% barrier was in efect in 1997, despite improving equipment, diets, trianing methods etc. had doping methods been refined as you said, it should've kept growing exponentially.

I didn't say pre-hematocrit tests, I said pre-Festina, with 1997 and 1998 in mind. Note in those years before the introduction of the EPO test most riders had hematocrits as high as 49%, whereas in later years the figure went down to more normal values, without the performance decreasing, because instead of relying on boosting your hematocrit as much as you could, they were relying on increasingly perfected and refined programs, so that by 2005 doping was giving as much of an advantage or more as in 1998, through finesse rather than through raw PED abuse. For contrast, you were saying by 2005 doping was practically a non-factor.

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

what is your source taht riders before epo was introduced had 49% hematocrites?? at start of a tour or throughout whole tour?

when 2000s riders came back from suspensions they came back at very high level, while riders from 90s like riis, ugrumov, rominger, lutenberger, furlan, gianetti, puttini etc faded hard without even doping suspensions as soon as 50% rule was in efect.

 

[on3m@n@rmy]

Not sure to what you are referring as silly, so I can't comment.

Regarding the poor 2005 performance of Discovery domestiques.
Both Big George and Popo finished in the top 15, only 20 or so minutes down.
Azevedo was 5th in 2004.

Hence the confusion and collapse of the Disco game plan in 2006. The Portuguese climber should have got undisputed leadership, instead they hedged bets with Hincapie etc and flopped.
Jose finished 19th, over 38 minutes back.
Hincapie 72 minutes behind Floyd.

From racing standpoint only, I never understood why Disco might have supported GH as leader in 2006 when they could have put full support to ACE. I say "might" because at least ACE had number "1" on his jersey, and GH only had #3. Maybe all the pre-race posturing of Disco saying they would support GH as a leader for the GC was a smoke screen to confuse other teams on the real plans of Disco?

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

azevedo was a good rider but could never do more than a top 5 in a gt. hincapie was like a dark horse, all or nothing and disco couldn't care less about doing top 5. they wanted to win.

 

[on3m@n@rmy]

I thought 2004 was USPS strongest year, or maybe 2002 (I think this was the year Heras just about ripped the legs off LA leading him on one stage in the Pyrennes).

 

[hrotha]

what is your source taht riders before epo was introduced had 49% hematocrites?? at start of a tour or throughout whole tour?

I can't help but notice you keep asking for sources while you don't provide any to back your own statements.

Anyway, back then it was a common occurrence for riders to go over the 50% limit in the last tests of a GT (typically one day before the finish). Forconi, Pantani, Clavero, Domínguez, Miceli, and others. Gotti was allegedly above 49% in the same test that got Pantani DQ'ed. I can't find a source right now, though.

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

it is you who are claiming all these doping allegations so it's you who needs sources not me

and I was talking about before epo was introduced so late 80s. I thought you said riders then had hematocrites of 49%

I know after 50% rule was in efect all riders were close or on 50% line. that's why pantani kicked so much *** because it was honest for a chance and pantani wiped the floor with everyone.

 

[Mellow Velo]

That was a silly comment. Firstly George got most of that time into the top 20 by a breakaway.

5 minutes to be precise. Still well into the top 20 @ 27 minutes.

Discovery were quite poor. They weren't as strong as other years in the mountains which was evident by how easily T-Mobile isolated them and still had numbers. T- Mobile had rocks in there heads and cdidn't have a clue about attacking Armstrong.

Seriously, who was the DS' of T-Mobile at those tours? Mario Kummer would have to be one of those guys. They were hopeless.

Again, cutting to the chase. Were you able to watch all of the 2005 Tour in Oz? You can't have been very old.

I will agree that T Mob were tactical turnips, but they still got 3rd and 5th. That doesn't explain the rest, who were nowhere.
Someone must have put 12 minutes into Leipheimer, Cadel and Floyd and as you point out, it wasn't the German lot.

Methinks this is just a bit of protecting our BMC George, even though we now know what he was up to.

 

[hrotha]

it is you who are claiming all these doping allegations so it's you who needs sources not me

and I was talking about before epo was introduced so late 80s. I thought you said riders then had hematocrites of 49%

I know after 50% rule was in efect all riders were close or on 50% line. that's why pantani kicked so much *** because it was honest for a chance and pantani wiped the floor with everyone.

Oh, I see, you missed the word "test" in "EPO test" in my post, and I misread your reply too. OK then.

 

[jens_attacks]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-y38WZAtgc

damn that was insane.that's how you should race properly the first mountainous stage,40 km/h uphill to slaughter everybody behind you.the tour of 2003 came to lance mainly because of this terrific work by beltran and heras.what a fiesta!

 

[The Hitch]

wow, two hours and this ones not been put in the clinic yet. Impressive.

To be honest, i much prefer to read the Pro road racing crowds opinion of this than the clinic crowd. Im on page 3 and Armstrong has hardly been mentioned. Its a good discussion and Ryo saying that good state of mind makes you perform better than increasing your hematocrit was entertaining.

 

[Publicus]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-y38WZAtgc

alpe dhuez us postal sprint

Thanks for this video; it puts the speeds that they climb these mountains today in perspective. These kids were absolutely flying...

 

[Bavarianrider]

Should really be in the clinic!

 

[roundabout]

As far as I remember the ascent times for Alpe d'Huez in 03 were relatively slow.

Mayo was 25 seconds faster than Sastre's time in 08 and Armstrong was over 3 minutes slower than in 2001 and about 30 seconds faster than the best times of the 80's.

 

[Bavarianrider]

It had like 40 degree this day