USP Postal Train in the Mountains...

[Escarabajo]

It was the title who made it go into the clinic.

 

[Alex76]

It was the title who made it go into the clinic.

it was actually an honest question - but with hindsight i can see this thread would only lead in one direction...

anyone got any more of those links showing the fuelled up train - i cant find anything for Hincapie's stage win, at least not on youtube.

thx

a

 

[Escarabajo]

it was actually an honest question - but with hindsight i can see this thread would only lead in one direction...

anyone got any more of those links showing the fuelled up train - i cant find anything for Hincapie's stage win, at least not on youtube.

thx

a

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=2005+tour+de+france+stage+15&aq=f

Enjoy.

 

[Mellow Velo]

Well... considering the 6th post in the thread (made by you) was already referencing the clinic, I'm not sure why you're suprised.

So badly, in fact, that George Hincapie won the Queen stage.

Two words: The Clinic.

Wasn't a reference, but a prediction as to where this thread would inevitably end up.
My reply was to ACF's suggestion that Disco did badly in 2005.
No mention using the "D" word in any of my posts.

After all, with USPS, one can be fairly indirect and ambiguous, yet still get the message across.

 

[thehog]

Stage 17 2004 was the most ridiculous. Hincapie on the front for the first 75km then Landis rode over 3 mountain passes on the front pacing Armstrong, Ullrich, Basso etc. for 100km to the end where both Landis and Armstrong still had enough energy in them to go for the sprint! It was just soooooooo stupid and obvious that they were abusing the gear big time. Like I keep saying Ullrich never stood a chance.

 

[Big GMaC]

Stage 17 2004 was the most ridiculous. Hincapie on the front for the first 75km then Landis rode over 3 mountain passes on the front pacing Armstrong, Ullrich, Basso etc. for 100km to the end where both Landis and Armstrong still had enough energy in them to go for the sprint! It was just soooooooo stupid and obvious that they were abusing the gear big time. Like I keep saying Ullrich never stood a chance.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Yf1nJYkCHQ

Around 4:30

Liggett says:

'I think we would all like to know what is inside Lance Armstrong'

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

I think I first noticed it in about 2001 or 2002. By then the link to Ferrari had been revealed, and it started to seem obvious, to me at least, what was going on.

Another thing to consider, beyond how jacked they were, is that USPS was one of the biggest, most financed teams, and they were concentrated on one thing and one thing only: Have Lance win the Tour. They trained for that one race, and all for one rider to win it. While some USPS riders rode well in other races, when you have riders like Heras working as a domestique whose main season goal is to help Lance win the Tour...

 

[Zweistein]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-y38WZAtgc

damn that was insane.that's how you should race properly the first mountainous stage,40 km/h uphill to slaughter everybody behind you.the tour of 2003 came to lance mainly because of this terrific work by beltran and heras.what a Festina !

There I fixed your typo.

 

[just some guy]

Stage 17 2004 was the most ridiculous. Hincapie on the front for the first 75km then Landis rode over 3 mountain passes on the front pacing Armstrong, Ullrich, Basso etc. for 100km to the end where both Landis and Armstrong still had enough energy in them to go for the sprint! It was just soooooooo stupid and obvious that they were abusing the gear big time. Like I keep saying Ullrich never stood a chance.

You guys are funny Armstrong, Ullrich, Landis, Kolden etc were all on the same sh!t anyway.

So saying Ullrich never stood a chance is just stupid.

 

[thehog]

You guys are funny Armstrong, Ullrich, Landis, Kolden etc were all on the same sh!t anyway.

So saying Ullrich never stood a chance is just stupid.

No its not. And obvious you don't understand how doping works. Doping is not a magic pill thats makes you fast. You have to do it right. Takes immense amount of planning and execution. You have to get the levels right for your body and you can't overdo it or under do it as its simply not effective. The biggest problem with doping is the testing. You have to plan around the testing to fly under the radar. If you don't plan you get caught.

The biggest advantage Armstrong and USPS had was they could dope without fear of being caught. They could dope and have the required time to get their "levels" back to normal before the tester took their test due to the tip offs.

Ullrich nor the others had this advantage. He had to temper it to fly under the radar and didn't have access to the range of drugs that Armstrong and USPS used.

USPS had confidence that they could dope and not get caught. That was a massive advantage. Even Floyd said in his emails that in 2004 they actually had to pull back as they were too strong. Imagine that??!!!

 

[VeloCity]

You guys are funny Armstrong, Ullrich, Landis, Kolden etc were all on the same sh!t anyway.

So saying Ullrich never stood a chance is just stupid.

What was the difference between Gewiss '94 and their competition? Not simply "doping" - EPO was pretty widespread in the peloton by then. So why were Gewiss riders so much stronger than everyone else in '94? Was it simply a coincidence that Ferrari was their team doctor that year?

What do you think Armstrong was paying Ferrari the big bucks for? If "doping" was all the same, Armstrong could've saved a hell of a lot of money "working" with someone else. Clearly the benefits of "working" with Ferrari were worth the price.

 

[just some guy]

No its not. And obvious you don't understand how doping works. Doping is not a magic pill thats makes you fast. You have to do it right. Takes immense amount of planning and execution. You have to get the levels right for your body and you can't overdo it or under do it as its simply not effective. The biggest problem with doping is the testing. You have to plan around the testing to fly under the radar. If you don't plan you get caught.

The biggest advantage Armstrong and USPS had was they could dope without fear of being caught. They could dope and have the required time to get their "levels" back to normal before the tester took their test due to the tip offs.

Ullrich nor the others had this advantage. He had to temper it to fly under the radar and didn't have access to the range of drugs that Armstrong and USPS used.

USPS had confidence that they could dope and not get caught. That was a massive advantage. Even Floyd said in his emails that in 2004 they actually had to pull back as they were too strong. Imagine that??!!!

What was the difference between Gewiss '94 and their competition? Not simply "doping" - EPO was pretty widespread in the peloton by then. So why were Gewiss riders so much stronger than everyone else in '94? Was it simply a coincidence that Ferrari was their team doctor that year?

What do you think Armstrong was paying Ferrari the big bucks for? If "doping" was all the same, Armstrong could've saved a hell of a lot of money "working" with someone else. Clearly the benefits of "working" with Ferrari were worth the price.

I think you guys need to look beyond Ferrari - the good Dr maybe best know in cycling but the East Germains were doing doping programs and winning more medals at the olympics they you can poke a stick at while Ferrari and UPS rider were still ****ting their pants and wearing nappies.

UCI needed T-Mobile as much as they needed lance

You can't have a hero without a villian.

Ullrich was casted aside when he was no longer the best villian.

How do you know UPS had the best gear, you don't you just guess. Ullrich passed under the testers radar better the Armstrong maybe he had the best system.

Don't beleive that T-mobile had weaker PEDs program that UPS if you do then you are blind.

 

[auscyclefan94]

5 minutes to be precise. Still well into the top 20 @ 27 minutes.



Again, cutting to the chase. Were you able to watch all of the 2005 Tour in Oz? You can't have been very old.

I will agree that T Mob were tactical turnips, but they still got 3rd and 5th. That doesn't explain the rest, who were nowhere.
Someone must have put 12 minutes into Leipheimer, Cadel and Floyd and as you point out, it wasn't the German lot.

Methinks this is just a bit of protecting our BMC George, even though we now know what he was up to.

You are a very sad, little person. I had a go at your post. You had a go at a poster, being me. Is that necessary. Yes I did watch a lot of the 2005 tour de france and also have it on DVD. I don't see how my age is relevant. George Hincapie's BMC connection is irrelevant. Your clinic reference was also unnecessary. Crawl back into your little hole please.

Stage 8 Pforzheim - Gérardmer
2 Andreas Klöden (Ger) T-Mobile Team
6 Jan Ullrich (Ger) T-Mobile Team
10 Alexandre Vinokourov (Kaz) T-Mobile Team
20 Lance Armstrong (USA) Discovery Channel

The 2nd best placed Discovery Channel rider was 1:25 back. Klodi actually attacked from the leaders and got the gap, no breakaway.

Stage 10: Brignoud - Courchevel
2 Lance Armstrong (USA) Discovery Channel
9 Andreas Klöden (Ger) T-Mobile Team 2:14
13 Jan Ullrich (Ger) T-Mobile Team st
19 Yaroslav Popovych (Ukr) Discovery Channel 3:59
24 Alexandre Vinokourov (Kaz) T-Mobile Team 5.18
35 Giuseppe Guerini (Ita) T-Mobile Team 6:38
36 Oscar Sevilla (Spa) T-Mobile Team st
47 George Hincapie (USA) Discovery Channel 10.16
48 Jose Azevedo (Por) Discovery Channel st

Stage 14: Agde - Ax-3 Domaines
2 Lance Armstrong (USA) Discovery Channel 0.56
4 Jan Ullrich (Ger) T-Mobile Team 1.16
9 Andreas Klöden (Ger) T-Mobile Team 2.06
11 Alexandre Vinokourov (Kaz) T-Mobile Team 3.06
16 Yaroslav Popovych (Ukr) Discovery Channel 4.18
29 Giuseppe Guerini (Ita) T-Mobile Team 8.09
33 Daniele Nardello (Ita) T-Mobile Team 9.35
35 Oscar Sevilla (Spa) T-Mobile Team 11.24
40 George Hincapie (USA) Discovery Channel 13.28


Stage 15: Lézat-sur-Lèze - Saint-Lary Soulan (Pla d'Adet),
1 George Hincapie (USA) Discovery Channel *
7 Lance Armstrong (USA) Discovery Channel 5:04
8 Oscar Sevilla (Spa) T-Mobile Team 6.28
9 Jan Ullrich (Ger) T-Mobile Team st
12 Alexandre Vinokourov (Kaz) T-Mobile Team 7.33
18 Yaroslav Popovych (Ukr) Discovery Channel 9.32
22 Andreas Klöden (Ger) T-Mobile Team 11.27
27 Giuseppe Guerini (Ita) T-Mobile Team 12.17
37 Jose Azevedo (Por) Discovery Channel 16.11
42 Jose Luis Rubiera (Spa) Discovery Channel 20.41
43 Paolo Savoldelli (Ita) Discovery Channel st

* Hincapie's win was from a breakaway

Stage 20: Saint Etienne TT
1 Lance Armstrong (USA) Discovery Channel 1.11.46
2 Jan Ullrich (Ger) T-Mobile Team 0.23
3 Alexandre Vinokourov (Kaz) T-Mobile Team 1.16
8 George Hincapie (USA) Discovery Channel 2.25
11 Yaroslav Popovych (Ukr) Discovery Channel 3.09
24 Giuseppe Guerini (Ita) T-Mobile Team 4.45
31 Jose Luis Rubiera (Spa) Discovery Channel 5.24
33 Daniele Nardello (Ita) T-Mobile Team 5.37
34 Tobias Steinhauser (Ger) T-Mobile Team 5.40
38 Pavel Padrnos (Cze) Discovery Channel 5:53


Note Kloden was out of the race.

 

[Berzin]

How do you know UPS had the best gear, you don't you just guess.

No, we DO know. The proof is in the performances. Aside from riders getting popped after they left, riders who won major races (Hamilton, Landis, Heras), not one cat was able to reproduce the stunning form they exhibited once they left Postal. That says it all.

Don't believe that T-mobile had weaker PEDs program that UPS if you do then you are blind.

No one cares what you believe. Your agenda is quite transparent, so please stop being bogus.

 

[rata de sentina]

Don't beleive that T-mobile had weaker PEDs program that UPS if you do then you are blind.

Well maybe you are correct but you can't just say the East Germans were great at doping because that doesn't mean much in this context. Were they great at doping with EPO? The point about Ferrari is he is a haematologist and he worked with Conconi who is among the very first to tinker with EPO in a scientific way. So what we are talking about is a guy with a specific set of expertise in blood manipulation whether with EPO or other means and more importantly a lot of experience in applying it. It is the blood maniputaion that has the really big effects the other doping products have more modest benefits to performance. Getting the blood mainpulation right was the key.

What people are saying here is that we have a known expert in this area, Ferrari, working with LA. On the other hand you are saying that there are these faceless East Germans who you can't name with an equal level of expertise. Maybe T-mobile did have the equivalent of the postal program but it isn't very clear who had the expertise and how they acquired it. It isn't clear whether they went to the same lengths in the coordinated doping of the domestiques. It's not just about LA and Ullrich, it is also about the rest of the team, that's why this thread is about the "Train".

 

[VeloCity]

I think you guys need to look beyond Ferrari - the good Dr maybe best know in cycling but the East Germains were doing doping programs and winning more medals at the olympics they you can poke a stick at while Ferrari and UPS rider were still ****ting their pants and wearing nappies.

UCI needed T-Mobile as much as they needed lance

You can't have a hero without a villian.

Ullrich was casted aside when he was no longer the best villian.

How do you know UPS had the best gear, you don't you just guess. Ullrich passed under the testers radar better the Armstrong maybe he had the best system.

Don't beleive that T-mobile had weaker PEDs program that UPS if you do then you are blind.

So what set Gewiss apart then? Why were they so dominant the two years Ferrari was their team doc - not before, not after, just those two years?

Armstrong could've afforded anyone - why Ferrari all those years?

 

[TourOfSardinia]

Again, cutting to the chase. Were you able to watch all of the 2005 Tour in Oz? You can't have been very old.

I'm no moderator - but time to mellow down and apologise - ACF's level of enthusiasm surely should immunise him from such a comment!

 

[just some guy]

No, we DO know. The proof is in the performances. Aside from riders getting popped after they left, riders who won major races (Hamilton, Landis, Heras), not one cat was able to reproduce the stunning form they exhibited once they left Postal. That says it all.




No one cares what you believe. Your agenda is quite transparent, so please stop being bogus.

Whats my agenda?

I hope Armstrong loses it all and then some. to quote Ullrich if you don´t know what was happening in cycling in the 90´s I can´t help you.

They were all on the gear.

Riis Mr EPO road for the same team as Ullrich, Ullrich went back to the team car and said I´m stronger than Riis can I go.

Ferrari was not the only one - what needs to happen is all the crap from the 90´s and 2000´s comes out.

When Armstrong goes down will you tell the world know how UPS were the only team on the gear and Ullrich now gets 4 wins at the tour.

The hippocratic attitude is classic.

Yes Armstrong won the tour take him down, just because someone wants to see the truth all come out does not mean there is a hidden agenda.

Take them all or don´t bother.

 

[auscyclefan94]

I'm no moderator - but time to mellow down and apologise - ACF's level of enthusiasm surely should immunise him from such a comment!

I don't expect an apology from him when his posts regarding any of my posts are generally sarcastic or of a mocking nature.

 

[just some guy]

Well maybe you are correct but you can't just say the East Germans were great at doping because that doesn't mean much in this context. Were they great at doping with EPO? The point about Ferrari is he is a haematologist and he worked with Conconi who is among the very first to tinker with EPO in a scientific way. So what we are talking about is a guy with a specific set of expertise in blood manipulation whether with EPO or other means and more importantly a lot of experience in applying it. It is the blood maniputaion that has the really big effects the other doping products have more modest benefits to performance. Getting the blood mainpulation right was the key.

What people are saying here is that we have a known expert in this area, Ferrari, working with LA. On the other hand you are saying that there are these faceless East Germans who you can't name with an equal level of expertise. Maybe T-mobile did have the equivalent of the postal program but it isn't very clear who had the expertise and how they acquired it. It isn't clear whether they went to the same lengths in the coordinated doping of the domestiques. It's not just about LA and Ullrich, it is also about the rest of the team, that's why this thread is about the "Train".

And at the end of some of the Videos

we have
Armstrong
Landis
Hamilton
Kloden
Basso
Ullrich

So out of the 6 we have 3 caught dopers and 3 that finished higher than the 3 dopers - so.

Yes Ferrari is a genius at the game but in everything there will be others better and probably smarter because they have never got caught.

and People must not forget you must start with a level you can´t make a race Horse out of a donkey.

 

[greenedge]

T-Mobile had subdivided attention with quality riders. Armstrong had riders peak for the TDF who would ride for him and be prepared to, each with a specific job.

 

[Mellow Velo]

I'm no moderator - but time to mellow down and apologise - ACF's level of enthusiasm surely should immunise him from such a comment!

It was a genuine question, not an attack.

I don't expect an apology from him when his posts regarding any of my posts are generally sarcastic or of a mocking nature.

I asked whether you watched the 2005 Tour, that's all. I didn't call you names, like you did me.
No "victim" here, so no need to play the part.

You seem to be basing your argument on the placement and times of domestiques and in that respect, you appear correct.

However, where mountain helpers finish doesn't paint the full picture.

Floyd Landis finished about 45 minutes down in the 2004 Tour, but destroyed Lance's opponents in the hills. Only Lance Basso and Kloden were on a similar or better level.

Anyhow, enough of 2005. It's about half a decade.

 

[Garry Allen]

the East German doping was a completely different era. The Berlin Wall came down in 1989, before EPO went through the peloton and Dr Ferrari developed his special expertise with Gewiss. East German doping was with steroids particularly (especially testosterone)and with stimulants, not with blood boosters such as EPO
US Postal dominated for several reasons.
1. The whole tour team was doped to the eyeballs. The team would sit on the front in the mountain stages doing their tempo riding and outriding the other teams. And they regularly finished with most of their riders
2. Winning the the tour was the primary objective for the entire team for the season. They didnt go into the tour with multiple aims (e.g sprint classification and GC - T-Mobile in multiple years)
3. Several of Armstrong's lieutenants could have been contenders in their own right each year. (e.g Heras)
4. the free pass from the UCI
5. the free pass from the media - behaviour that was unacceptable from other teams was always acceptable from US postal - e.g the sprint onto the causeway of the passage de gois in 1999 when another contender crashed or George Hincapie sprinting for the win when he had not contributed to the breakaway........
6. They were remarkably free of serious accidents

 

[simoni]

The hippocratic attitude is classic.

Sorry, but I absolutely love this!

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

Those interested in the East German doping machine really should read Faust's Gold. It goes into pretty good detail about much of the DDR doping. Though not complete, it gives a good idea.

Also well worth watching is Doping for Gold, an episode of Secrets of the Dead that's pretty chilling at times. The entire episode can be watched for free online here.

The East Germans, while mostly using steroids, did use blood packing (doping) on several athletes. The most prominent accused DDR athlete was Waldemar Cierpinski. Though Finnish runner Lasse Viren was equally accused of it as well.

Steroid use in the Olympics dates further back than that though. The Soviet Union and United States both had some sort of plan using steroids back to the 50's. Joe Weider talked about steroids being discovered by body builders and lifters as far back as the late 1940's, just in case you're curious.