Vancansoleil in the Pro Tour or dead meat ?

[El Pistolero]

Europe Tour includes highly regarded races as Paris-Tours, Omloop het nieuwsblad, Giro del Emilia, Eroica strade bianchi and so on. It's not just omloop van de sarthe and tour of britain stuff vacansoleil scored their points in...

All those races are just average 1.1 rated races according to the Dutch maffia.

 

[Mellow Velo]

How important are invites? Well, in 2009, the shoe was on the other foot, so to speak,
with Vacansoleil riding a GT and BMC only getting invites to a few races, such as Romandie,
TDS and I seem to recall, the Dauphine????
Anyhow:
2009 UCI World Rankings:
21 22 VAC VACANSOLEIL PRO CYCLING TEAM NED 158
22 21 XAC XACOBEO GALICIA ESP 128
23 23 FUJ FUJI-SERVETTO ESP 114
24 24 LPR LPR BRAKES FARNESE VINI IRL 102
25 25 AGR AGRITUBEL FRA 34
26 26 SKS SKIL-SHIMANO NED 33
27 27 FLM CERAMICA FLAMINIA - BOSSINI DOCCE IRL 26
28 28 MCO CONTENTPOLIS-AMPO ESP 24
29 29 ACA ANDALUCIA CAJASUR ESP 21
30 30 BAR BARLOWORLD GBR 20
31 31 TSV TOPSPORT VLAANDEREN - MERCATOR BEL 11
32 32 LAN LANDBOUWKREDIET - COLNAGO BEL 4
33 33 BMC BMC RACING TEAM USA 4

Hard to score points when you aren't at the races, n'est ce pas?

 

[kurtinsc]

How important are invites? Well, in 2009, the shoe was on the other foot, so to speak,
with Vacansoleil riding a GT and BMC only getting invites to a few races, such as Romandie,
TDS and I seem to recall, the Dauphine????
Anyhow:
2009 UCI World Rankings:
21 22 VAC VACANSOLEIL PRO CYCLING TEAM NED 158
22 21 XAC XACOBEO GALICIA ESP 128
23 23 FUJ FUJI-SERVETTO ESP 114
24 24 LPR LPR BRAKES FARNESE VINI IRL 102
25 25 AGR AGRITUBEL FRA 34
26 26 SKS SKIL-SHIMANO NED 33
27 27 FLM CERAMICA FLAMINIA - BOSSINI DOCCE IRL 26
28 28 MCO CONTENTPOLIS-AMPO ESP 24
29 29 ACA ANDALUCIA CAJASUR ESP 21
30 30 BAR BARLOWORLD GBR 20
31 31 TSV TOPSPORT VLAANDEREN - MERCATOR BEL 11
32 32 LAN LANDBOUWKREDIET - COLNAGO BEL 4
33 33 BMC BMC RACING TEAM USA 4

Hard to score points when you aren't at the races, n'est ce pas?

Well in 2009, BMC's best rider was Markus Zberg. Not quite the same quality of team as 2010.

 

[auscyclefan94]

Oh come on

How can you look at pt rankings when Vacan werent even invited to any of the big races. Thats ridiculous.

I know DT looked at the Europe tour, but he wasnt using it to compare with BMC, just to point out that Vacan are good.

I do agree that the Cq has some flaws. Namely that you get too many points for coming top 10. Winning should be given a slightly bigger gap over runner up, and podium over top 10.

But i wouldnt say overating minor races is one of them.

Minor races do exist, and those who ride them go all out and face tough competition. Its not like the TOB gets as many points as the TDS is it. But it was still a difficult race for Vacansalaeil to get the points, mountains and team classification, 2 stages and a podium. So the Cq rewards them for it, rather than ignoring it like the PT.

Look ACF. I do think Cuddles is still one of the worlds best, and i really really want him to get that TOur victory, with no Conti and if he peaks just right.
And in cycling, having simply the best rider can sometimes be better than having a team of very good riders, especially if that rider wins the Tour. But if you look past Cadel, and at the season as a whole, Vacansaleil does have riders who will do far more next season.

Dont you remember this? Last man to get dropped by Canc.

I was hoping he could hang on and then work with Canc for a podium spot but oh well.

Good post. Can I ask you all, why didn't vacansoleil get any GT invites? Personally if they got invites to GT's they would of targeted those races more and had lesser quality lineups and therefore scored less points in those races.

btw, leukemans rode strongly on PR but wasn't he only with Cancellara then because Leukemans attacked earlier and Cancellara caught up to him and then blew him away?

 

[theyoungest]

Good post. Can I ask you all, why didn't vacansoleil get any GT invites? Personally if they got invites to GT's they would of targeted those races more and had lesser quality lineups and therefore scored less points in those races.

You keep repeating that, but take Hoogerland for example: one of their strongest riders, he didn't get to ride any of his season targets (the Ardennes classics and a GT) so he's had a more or less lost season. He could have certainly scored them a lot more points in these races than in the Tours of Poland and Britain and Bumf**k, Egypt.

 

[Dekker_Tifosi]

Indeed, it was in big races (flanders, lombardia, vuelta) for instance, that Hoogerland scored the bulk of his points in 2009.
Many forget that

And if they were invited to a GT, I'm sure Ricco (in the Vuelta) would have scored points. And don't forget Carrara has done well in many climbing stage races as well.

 

[auscyclefan94]

Indeed, it was in big races (flanders, lombardia, vuelta) for instance, that Hoogerland scored the bulk of his points in 2009.
Many forget that

And if they were invited to a GT, I'm sure Ricco (in the Vuelta) would have scored points. And don't forget Carrara has done well in many climbing stage races as well.

I wouldn't be so sure ricco would of done much in la vuelta. Going straight into a gt after just coming off a ban and expecting success?

You keep repeating that, but take Hoogerland for example: one of their strongest riders, he didn't get to ride any of his season targets (the Ardennes classics and a GT) so he's had a more or less lost season. He could have certainly scored them a lot more points in these races than in the Tours of Poland and Britain and Bumf**k, Egypt.

Hoogerland rode AGR, didn't he? Would have he been up there in fleche? Doubt it. Would have he been up there in liege? He might of got a top 10...

 

[theyoungest]

Hoogerland rode AGR, didn't he? Would have he been up there in fleche? Doubt it. Would have he been up there in liege? He might of got a top 10...

Of course, in this lost season for Hoogerland, he still scored more CQ points than every BMC rider except Evans and Ballan... but I can imagine that if your winter training is focused on the Ardennes classics, and you have to ride all the Flemish classics instead, you're never at your best.

 

[auscyclefan94]

Of course, in this lost season for Hoogerland, he still scored more CQ points than every BMC rider except Evans and Ballan... but I can imagine that if your winter training is focused on the Ardennes classics, and you have to ride all the Flemish classics instead, you're never at your best.

Your coming up with some pretty interesting excuses of why he wouldn't of done much. Ballan was suspended over a fair period of time and lacked any form anyway and he still had more points than Hoogerland.

 

[Mellow Velo]

Your coming up with some pretty interesting excuses of why he wouldn't of done much. Ballan was suspended over a fair period of time and lacked any form anyway and he still had more points than Hoogerland.

Hey, there is only one master of the elaborate smokescreen excuse around here and that is you.

I still say it is an impossible comparison, when respective riders competed over two different calenders.

Break it down.
Ballan scored 378 PT/HIS points and just 26 PE calendar points.
Hoogerland scored 126 PT/HIS points, but 326 PE calendar points.

Hoogerland hardly got a ride during June and July, so he was out for at least as long as Ballan.
During that time, Ballan scored 140 points for one 2nd (Tour) and one 3rd (NCs) place, plus his 87th at the Tour.

22 points difference over the season is negligible, given CQ's comprehensive scoring system.

IMO, neither had their best season and there is little to choose between them, in terms of their ability to score ranking points.

 

[auscyclefan94]

Hey, there is only one master of the elaborate smokescreen excuse around here and that is you.

I still say it is an impossible comparison, when respective riders competed over two different calenders.

Break it down.
Ballan scored 378 PT/HIS points and just 26 PE calendar points.
Hoogerland scored 126 PT/HIS points, but 326 PE calendar points.

Hoogerland hardly got a ride during June and July, so he was out for at least as long as Ballan.
During that time, Ballan scored 140 points for one 2nd (Tour) and one 3rd (NCs) place, plus his 87th at the Tour.

22 points difference over the season is negligible, given CQ's comprehensive scoring system.

IMO, neither had their best season and there is little to choose between them, in terms of their ability to score ranking points.

smokescreens, i am just voicing my opinion. Isn't that what a forum is about?

 

[Mellow Velo]

smokescreens, i am just voicing my opinion. Isn't that what a forum is about?

So, you have an opinion, while theyoungest just has excuses?

I can't see any opinion to my post, so I'll assume you generally agree, however grudgingly.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

I wouldn't be so sure ricco would of done much in la vuelta. Going straight into a gt after just coming off a ban and expecting success?

Firstly:
Yes, Kash and Vino struggled. But these were guys who'd been back a handful of weeks. Kash's first race back was the Volta a Portugal, which was 11 days long and started less than a month before the Vuelta; Vino's was some chrono with a very weak field only a week or two before it.

But Riccò had been back in March. He would have been able to ride Milan-San Remo if RCS had invited Flaminia. He raced well at Coppi e Bartali, won stages and was 2nd at Settimana Lombarda, won a stage and was 2nd overall at Trentino, won both MTFs and overall at Austria. If Vacansoleil were riding the Vuelta he'd probably have done either Poland or Burgos as a warmup.

Basso's only race in 2008 was the Japan Cup; as such you can consider the start of 2009 as his comeback; if he could come top 5 in the Giro then, four months after coming back in earnest, 7 months after coming back full stop, then why couldn't Riccò put a good showing in six months after coming back?

Secondly:
--edited by mod--?

 

[theyoungest]

Ballan was suspended over a fair period of time and lacked any form anyway and he still had more points than Hoogerland.

The difference is, Ballan is the 2nd BMC rider on CQranking. Hoogerland is the 6th Vacansoleil rider. But it's apples and pears, as Mellow Velo rightly says, and frankly I don't feel the need to find "excuses" for Hoogerland... he's not my Kristoff or anything.

 

[The Hitch]

Secondly:
--edited by mod--?

Wtf?
That is so unlike you to say that, and i have no idea what you are getting at.

My only guess is that it is a refference to the wire.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Wtf?
That is so unlike you to say that, and i have no idea what you are getting at.

My only guess is that it is a refference to the wire.

Pulp Fiction.

And it was more of ACF butchering his first language. I thought I'd be a grammar nazi without actually being pedantic enough to point out what was wrong, because that always causes people to get on their high horse about how it's okay to miscommunicate. He's used to me correcting his German already, so what harm can it do?

 

[hrotha]

Pulp Fiction.

And it was more of ACF butchering his first language. I thought I'd be a grammar nazi without actually being pedantic enough to point out what was wrong, because that always causes people to get on their high horse about how it's okay to miscommunicate. He's used to me correcting his German already, so what harm can it do?

I've noticed ACF ALWAYS says "would of", so presumably it's not a simple spelling mistake, he actually thinks that's the correct form. Which is terrifying.

 

[Francois the Postman]

Last gentle hint gentlemen: back on topic (only).

 

[Dekker_Tifosi]

The topic is Vacansoleil in the Pro Tour or not.

They are in. So basically the topic is over

 

[DAOTEC]

Final update later in the transfer thread ...

 

[DAOTEC]

Sorry Dekker_Tifosi I disagree !

 

[DAOTEC]

What's next

Last gentle hint gentlemen: back on topic (only).

The topic is Vacansoleil in the Pro Tour or not.

They are in. So basically the topic is over

Is it ...

the Cobra also has a bunch of his buddys riding with Vac


http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showthread.php?t=12294&page=6

 

[jens_attacks]

i think vacansoleil will retire its sponsorship from this professional sport as soon as possible...

 

[Mellow Velo]

Well, I think the two of you are dreaming.

Vacansoleil made a risky signing, but from what has so far appeared in the press, it sounds like he went off the reservation.

 

[Dekker_Tifosi]

DAOTEC is always dreaming