Vancansoleil in the Pro Tour or dead meat ?

[rxgqgxnyfz]

Bozic has 3 wins this year in very small races.

And Kristoff had how many wins? Oh yeah -- none. Zero. Nada.

At 23, Bozic had four wins already.

Oh wow! I would really strive to be on the same level as Allan Davis!

I really like how your obsessive fetishism towards certain team (or more specifically -- one specific rider who just happens to be on that team) makes you talk down one of the most successful australian sprinter of this year (if not THE most successfull).

Really shows you for person you are.
________
Handjob Blowjob

 

[Dekker_Tifosi]

ACF is just too ****ed because of this

Men Elite UCI Europe Tour Ranking Individual
Final result

Rank Name Nation Team Age* Points
1 (1) Giovanni VISCONTI Italy ISD 27 787
2 (2) Stefan VAN DIJK Netherlands WIL 34 653
3 (3) Riccardo RICCO Italy VAC 27 569
4 (4) Domenico POZZOVIVO Italy COG 28 493
5 (5) Romain FEILLU France VAC 26 482
6 (6) Marco MARCATO Italy VAC 26 457
7 (7) Jens KEUKELEIRE Belgium COF 22 378
8 (8) Sergio PARDILLA BELLON Spain CMO 26 363
9 (9) Francisco José VENTOSO ALBERDI Spain CMO 28 361
10 (10) Enrico ROSSI Italy FLM 28 360

17 - Marcato
21 - Leukemans
30 - Bozic

Teams
1 (1) VACANSOLEIL PRO CYCLING TEAM Netherlands 2,624.4
2 (4) SAUR - SOJASUN France 1,564
3 (2) ISD - NERI Italy 1,503.2
4 (3) COFIDIS, LE CREDIT EN LIGNE France 1,481
5 (5) CARMIOORO NGC Great Britain 1,423
6 (10) ANDRONI GIOCATTOLI - SERRAMENTI PVC DIQUIGIOVANNI Italy 1,184
7 (6) COLNAGO - CSF INOX Ireland 1,158
8 (8) TOPSPORT VLAANDEREN - MERCATOR Belgium 1,141
9 (7) VERANDAS WILLEMS Belgium 1,089
10 (9) SKIL - SHIMANO Netherlands 1,072

38 (37) BMC RACING TEAM United States 344

CQ ranking Teams:
1. [Usa] Team HTC - Columbia PRT 11125
2. [Den] Team Saxo Bank PRT 10080
3. [Ita] Liquigas - Doimo PRT 10009
4. [Rus] Team Katusha PRT 9025
5. [Ned] Rabobank PRT 8685
6. [Usa] Garmin - Transitions PRT 7916
7. [Ned] Vacansoleil Pro Cycling Team PROF 7252
8. [Usa] Team RadioShack PRT 7143
9. [Kaz] Astana PRT 7037
10. [Esp] Caisse d'Epargne PRT 6795

21. [Usa] BMC Racing Team PROF 4470

CQ ranking team victories:
21. [Ned] Vacansoleil Pro Cycling Team PROF 17
79. [Usa] BMC Racing Team PROF 4

How cute, now bug off ACF

 

[Arnout]

I don't understand why you all still react on him. It's clear that he has no clue what he is talking about and that he is as biased as Sepp Blatter.

 

[adamski101]

Oh wow! I would really strive to be on the same level as Allan Davis![/QUOTE]

Yeah, who would want to aspire to being a medal winner at the World Championships and have a successful 10 year career???? Only about 90% of the pro peloton.

Also you seem to be over looking that Bozic has also won a GT stage. So he can't be that bad.

 

[theyoungest]

I don't understand why you all still react on him. It's clear that he has no clue what he is talking about and that he is as biased as Sepp Blatter.

At least Blatter makes a decent living from it

 

[Francois the Postman]

I don't understand why you all still react on him. It's clear that he has no clue what he is talking about and that he is as biased as Sepp Blatter.

To say he has no clue is deeply unfair.

It is kinda unfortunate that his posts show what happens when Bias takes Reasonable Substance on a tight leash through a super hall of mirrors.

But I can think of plenty of posters here who know a heck of a lot less about cycling, and can think of plenty who also have hang-ups, peculiar blind spots, or are simply less informed about certain areas, and over-informed in others. Myself included.

I don't find it hard to handle opinions of people who have bias and aren't nasty with it. He has frequently been involved in what became great discussions.

I quite like ueber-fans. And he certainly and genuinely is one. He also knows it. It would be a boring board here if we only responded to the settled majority view of things.

On a forum for cycling enthusiasts. I think he qualifies for participation.

 

[markene2]

Seriosuly if he dont stop underating all the riders in the peleton except BMC. Then he will go on my ignore list.

I am starting to get ****ed

 

[Matthijs]

Ahh, haven't you heard the news about mosquera's positive? We'll see who goes better in 2011.

Great 2009 season? It was a good season. Great for him maybe but lets not exaggerate like usual mellow Velo. It is well known that riders do not go well in their first GT back from a doping suspension. Ricco will struggle in the final week. No doubt about it. Well if you can actually say something nice about BMC you would recognise that all of BMC's top cobblers had down years in 2010. I think you and others have double standards, not me. You all say BMC were so dissapointing this year yet you say that Hincapie, balla, etc. are all past their best. So if their all past their best why expect anything from them?

Bozic has 3 wins this year in very small races. If he is soooo good like you say he is then he should of done way better. bozic is also 30, kristoff is 23.


Oh wow! I would really strive to be on the same level as Allan Davis!

Hincapie is very old so it's logical people rate him as from the past. It's simple as that.
Ballan had no results for 2 years, but toplevel 07 and 08 and is not so old. The memories of him in final breaks in Roubaix, Meerbeke and Varese are fading, so people are rating him lower. But to be fair, he has still top potential I think! So ACF is right here...
I hope Kroon get at least one year with decent results too. But fearing his best years are over. I hope he can top5 again at AGR (09 not so long ago...) and LBL, maybe try to win brabantse pijl or rund um frankfurt again?

Well, Kristoff is very young, can grow but still a long way. Bozic allready has some decent wins and top3 in a real classic, the 2nd biggest one-day race for sprinters and a GT stage (while only riding one GT!). About age: you can also argue that he has the experience which is needed to win even better races if he's allowed to participate (which I don't really believe, but we'll see). Davis was 3rd in WRR and had decent results in the past in MSR and Paris-Brussel.

And why discuss? that's what a forum is about right? discuss for the fun of discussing. I personally think ACF is biassed in some cases, but he expressed also a lot of realistic opinions...

 

[Mellow Velo]

Well if you can actually say something nice about BMC you would recognise that all of BMC's top cobblers had down years in 2010. I think you and others have double standards, not me.

Say something positive about BMC?
OK, let's see..........
Cadel had three-quarters of of great Giro and half a very good Tour.
Marcus Burghardt rode a fine, opportunist Swiss Tour.
Mo Santambrogio got some good results in a number of the Italian one day semis.
Uuuuuummm.........struggling now.....
They have signed some solid support classics riders for next year.
Their load of old cobblers can't possibly do worse next season, than they did in 2010.....................can they?

 

[blaxland]

Well, in the one GT that Vacansoleil got into (2009 Vuelta) they won a stage and had Johnny Hoogerland in 12th or 13th overall i think. So they've got a 100% record in getting good results for each GT they've contested. In terms of winning monuments I don't think you can hold that against them. Every team that isn't Rabobank, Saxo, Astana or Lotto didn't win a monument this year. That doesn't mean HTC, Garmin, Caisse or Liquigas (to name but a few) didn't perform well in the Classics.

+1 agree Moondance.I for one am looking forward to seeing Ricco in action again.Hopefully Johnny Hogerland can regain his 2009 form, ride agressively and win a one day monument.Say Lombardy...

 

[auscyclefan94]

ACF is just too ****ed because of this

Men Elite UCI Europe Tour Ranking Individual
Final result

Rank Name Nation Team Age* Points
1 (1) Giovanni VISCONTI Italy ISD 27 787
2 (2) Stefan VAN DIJK Netherlands WIL 34 653
3 (3) Riccardo RICCO Italy VAC 27 569
4 (4) Domenico POZZOVIVO Italy COG 28 493
5 (5) Romain FEILLU France VAC 26 482
6 (6) Marco MARCATO Italy VAC 26 457
7 (7) Jens KEUKELEIRE Belgium COF 22 378
8 (8) Sergio PARDILLA BELLON Spain CMO 26 363
9 (9) Francisco José VENTOSO ALBERDI Spain CMO 28 361
10 (10) Enrico ROSSI Italy FLM 28 360

17 - Marcato
21 - Leukemans
30 - Bozic

Teams
1 (1) VACANSOLEIL PRO CYCLING TEAM Netherlands 2,624.4
2 (4) SAUR - SOJASUN France 1,564
3 (2) ISD - NERI Italy 1,503.2
4 (3) COFIDIS, LE CREDIT EN LIGNE France 1,481
5 (5) CARMIOORO NGC Great Britain 1,423
6 (10) ANDRONI GIOCATTOLI - SERRAMENTI PVC DIQUIGIOVANNI Italy 1,184
7 (6) COLNAGO - CSF INOX Ireland 1,158
8 (8) TOPSPORT VLAANDEREN - MERCATOR Belgium 1,141
9 (7) VERANDAS WILLEMS Belgium 1,089
10 (9) SKIL - SHIMANO Netherlands 1,072

38 (37) BMC RACING TEAM United States 344

CQ ranking Teams:
1. [Usa] Team HTC - Columbia PRT 11125
2. [Den] Team Saxo Bank PRT 10080
3. [Ita] Liquigas - Doimo PRT 10009
4. [Rus] Team Katusha PRT 9025
5. [Ned] Rabobank PRT 8685
6. [Usa] Garmin - Transitions PRT 7916
7. [Ned] Vacansoleil Pro Cycling Team PROF 7252
8. [Usa] Team RadioShack PRT 7143
9. [Kaz] Astana PRT 7037
10. [Esp] Caisse d'Epargne PRT 6795

21. [Usa] BMC Racing Team PROF 4470

CQ ranking team victories:
21. [Ned] Vacansoleil Pro Cycling Team PROF 17
79. [Usa] BMC Racing Team PROF 4

How cute, now bug off ACF

Your a mega hypocrite DT. You will accept the uci ranking when it is for the europe tour rankings but when you look at the uci WORLD rankings your arguement falls down.

10 10 BMC RACING TEAM (BMC) USA 661
24 24 VACANSOLEIL PRO CYCLING TEAM (VAC) NED 130

5 4 EVANS Cadel AUS19770214 BMC RACING TEAM (BMC) 390
55 54 LEUKEMANS Björn BEL19770701 VACANSOLEIL PRO CYCLING TEAM (VAC) 100 59 58 BALLAN Alessandro ITA19791106 BMC RACING TEAM (BMC) 86
65 64 HINCAPIE George USA19730629 BMC RACING TEAM (BMC) 80
77 75 MORABITO Steve SUI19830130 BMC RACING TEAM (BMC) 61
96 116 SANTAMBROGIO Mauro ITA19841007 BMC RACING TEAM (BMC) 44
98 95 KRISTOFF Alexander NOR19870705 BMC RACING TEAM (BMC) 40
121 119 MARCATO Marco ITA19840211 VACANSOLEIL PRO CYCLING TEAM (VAC) 22
152 152 BURGHARDT Marcus GER19830630 BMC RACING TEAM (BMC) 12
176 177 BOOKWALTER Brent USA19840216 BMC RACING TEAM (BMC) 8
187 185 KROON Karsten NED19760129 BMC RACING TEAM (BMC) 6
200 198 LAGUTIN Sergey UZB19810114 VACANSOLEIL PRO CYCLING TEAM (VAC) 5
230 230 FEILLU Romain FRA19840416 VACANSOLEIL PRO CYCLING TEAM (VAC) 2
252 271 CARRARA Matteo ITA19790325 VACANSOLEIL PRO CYCLING TEAM (VAC)
264 263 GARDEYN Gorik BEL19800317 VACANSOLEIL PRO CYCLING TEAM (VAC) 1
266 261 BOZIC Borut SLO19800808 VACANSOLEIL PRO CYCLING TEAM (VAC) 1
268 254 WYSS Danilo SUI19850826 BMC RACING TEAM (BMC) 1

CQ includes smaller races. PT is only for the bigger races.

I ask you why didn't Vacansoleil get an invite to any GT"s if they are such an awesome team? You can't scapegoat the uci this time!

How cute, now bug off, D_T

 

[auscyclefan94]

And Kristoff had how many wins? Oh yeah -- none. Zero. Nada.

At 23, Bozic had four wins already.


I really like how your obsessive fetishism towards certain team (or more specifically -- one specific rider who just happens to be on that team) makes you talk down one of the most successful australian sprinter of this year (if not THE most successfull).

Really shows you for person you are.

Oh that cuts deep! I am glad to see that you judge someone who have never met and only know them because of a cycling forum. Well done!

Is this what you call four wins

1st, Medvod Criterium (SLO)
1st, Stage GP Tell, Willisau (SUI)
2nd, Stage GP Kranj (SLO)
3rd, Stage Istrian Spring Trophy (CRO)

GP Tell is an alright race.

Say something positive about BMC?
OK, let's see..........
Cadel had three-quarters of of great Giro and half a very good Tour.
Marcus Burghardt rode a fine, opportunist Swiss Tour.
Mo Santambrogio got some good results in a number of the Italian one day semis.
Uuuuuummm.........struggling now.....
They have signed some solid support classics riders for next year.
Their load of old cobblers can't possibly do worse next season, than they did in 2010.....................can they?

A perfectly decent post. There were a few other performances that were worth noting but otherwise quite accurate. They coudn't go any worse than they did this year.

Seriously, the way you underrate everyone not riding for BMC would be hilarious if it weren't so tiresome. Davis is about a million times better than Kristoff, and Kristoff would love to grow into the rider Davis is.

Also, Riccò has had a full year of riding under the belt. Riders coming from a suspension have trouble in GTs because they haven't had the time to build up their form, but Riccò won't have that problem more than Basso did this year.

1 million times? Davis could have a lot more races under his belt if he weren't so lazy. Yes I said lazy! Kristoff will be very fast but he can climb quite well. I am still unsure about ricco. He will not have done a Grand tour for nearly 3 years come may.

 

[Dekker_Tifosi]

Again you fail ACF94

The World Tour ranking consists, as you are well aware of, only of Pro Tour races and Historic races.
As Vacansoleil, in comparison to BMC, rode way and way less of these category races because of the lack of invites. They had no chance of scoring points.

Try again. And now with something convincing.

 

[auscyclefan94]

Again you fail ACF94

The World Tour ranking consists, as you are well aware of, only of Pro Tour races and Historic races.
As Vacansoleil, in comparison to BMC, rode way and way less of these category races because of the lack of invites. They had no chance of scoring points.

Try again. And now with something convincing.

Well the CQ rankings putting Vacansoleil way ahead of BMC is inaccurate. Vacansoleil had a better season than bmc imo no matter what ranking says but you also have to take into account that because they got no invites into the GT's and if my memory serves me correct no invites to monuments, they could target the smaller races which they would of put their top teams into them. Other teams would not of put in teams who were peaking for the races vasc were targeting because they would be finding form for the bigger races such as the GT's or monuments . Will be interesting to see how they go in 2011. As much as some of you like to bash BMC, you must admit that pretty much all of BMC's riders had a below par year in 2010. With some strong additions for 2011 and a lot of guys coming off their first years of the big euro races, bmc should go much better in 2011.

 

[theyoungest]

Well the CQ rankings putting Vacansoleil way ahead of BMC is inaccurate. Vacansoleil had a better season than bmc imo no matter what ranking says but you also have to take into account that because they got no invites into the GT's and if my memory serves me correct no invites to monuments, they could target the smaller races which they would of put their top teams into them. Other teams would not of put in teams who were peaking for the races vasc were targeting because they would be finding form for the bigger races such as the GT's or monuments . Will be interesting to see how they go in 2011. As much as some of you like to bash BMC, you must admit that pretty much all of BMC's riders had a below par year in 2010. With some strong additions for 2011 and a lot of guys coming off their first years of the big euro races, bmc should go much better in 2011.

You'd have a point, if Vacansoleil hadn't done way better than BMC in the bigger races they were invited to: the cobbled classics. If all BMC-riders perform below par (as you repeatedly suggest) it's time to wonder if maybe these guys aren't that strong after all. Hincapie, Kroon, Burghardt... good riders, but hardly top tier.

 

[adamski101]

Vaconsoleil were invited to Monuments last year. Leukemans was highly placed at both RVV and Paris - Roubaix.

 

[hrotha]

1 million times? Davis could have a lot more races under his belt if he weren't so lazy. Yes I said lazy! Kristoff will be very fast but he can climb quite well.

Ullrich was lazy and he got better results than 99% of the peloton anyway. Lazy Davis > Hard-working Kristoff. Davis at 23 was better than Kristoff now. Davis can climb quite well.

 

[ingsve]

Ullrich was lazy and he got better results than 99% of the peloton anyway. Lazy Davis > Hard-working Kristoff. Davis at 23 was better than Kristoff now. Davis can climb quite well.

Well, actually he wasn't to be fair. At 23 Davis had three wins and 13 podiums and Kristoff has three wins and 24 podiums and over twice as many CQranking points.

Perhaps if you compare them again at 24 years then Davis might be ahead depending on Kristoffs 2011 but at 23 I would say that Kristoff has shown more results. Though it's always hard to compare efforts that are so far apart in time.

 

[auscyclefan94]

Ullrich was lazy and he got better results than 99% of the peloton anyway. Lazy Davis > Hard-working Kristoff. Davis at 23 was better than Kristoff now. Davis can climb quite well.

Are you an australian and if so have you followed the australian cycling scene. You can't make a judgement of Kristoff at his age.Anyway, I have caused the loathing of kristoff on this forum so I probably should accept the blame of why people are really not rating him.

adam ski, they did not get invites to liege, MSR, fleche, lombardy, san sebastien

I was a bit too general about the monuments.

 

[theyoungest]

Ullrich was lazy and he got better results than 99% of the peloton anyway. Lazy Davis > Hard-working Kristoff. Davis at 23 was better than Kristoff now. Davis can climb quite well.

You know who's lazy? Oscar Freire.

 

[roundabout]

To be fair Davis was the designated sprinter on a team primarily focused on stage races early on in his career.

 

[The Hitch]

Your a mega hypocrite DT. You will accept the uci ranking when it is for the europe tour rankings but when you look at the uci WORLD rankings your arguement falls down.

10 10 BMC RACING TEAM (BMC) USA 661
24 24 VACANSOLEIL PRO CYCLING TEAM (VAC) NED 130

5 4 EVANS Cadel AUS19770214 BMC RACING TEAM (BMC) 390
55 54 LEUKEMANS Björn BEL19770701 VACANSOLEIL PRO CYCLING TEAM (VAC) 100 59 58 BALLAN Alessandro ITA19791106 BMC RACING TEAM (BMC) 86
65 64 HINCAPIE George USA19730629 BMC RACING TEAM (BMC) 80
77 75 MORABITO Steve SUI19830130 BMC RACING TEAM (BMC) 61
96 116 SANTAMBROGIO Mauro ITA19841007 BMC RACING TEAM (BMC) 44
98 95 KRISTOFF Alexander NOR19870705 BMC RACING TEAM (BMC) 40
121 119 MARCATO Marco ITA19840211 VACANSOLEIL PRO CYCLING TEAM (VAC) 22
152 152 BURGHARDT Marcus GER19830630 BMC RACING TEAM (BMC) 12
176 177 BOOKWALTER Brent USA19840216 BMC RACING TEAM (BMC) 8
187 185 KROON Karsten NED19760129 BMC RACING TEAM (BMC) 6
200 198 LAGUTIN Sergey UZB19810114 VACANSOLEIL PRO CYCLING TEAM (VAC) 5
230 230 FEILLU Romain FRA19840416 VACANSOLEIL PRO CYCLING TEAM (VAC) 2
252 271 CARRARA Matteo ITA19790325 VACANSOLEIL PRO CYCLING TEAM (VAC)
264 263 GARDEYN Gorik BEL19800317 VACANSOLEIL PRO CYCLING TEAM (VAC) 1
266 261 BOZIC Borut SLO19800808 VACANSOLEIL PRO CYCLING TEAM (VAC) 1
268 254 WYSS Danilo SUI19850826 BMC RACING TEAM (BMC) 1

CQ includes smaller races. PT is only for the bigger races.

I ask you why didn't Vacansoleil get an invite to any GT"s if they are such an awesome team? You can't scapegoat the uci this time!

How cute, now bug off, D_T

Oh come on

How can you look at pt rankings when Vacan werent even invited to any of the big races. Thats ridiculous.

I know DT looked at the Europe tour, but he wasnt using it to compare with BMC, just to point out that Vacan are good.

I do agree that the Cq has some flaws. Namely that you get too many points for coming top 10. Winning should be given a slightly bigger gap over runner up, and podium over top 10.

But i wouldnt say overating minor races is one of them.

Minor races do exist, and those who ride them go all out and face tough competition. Its not like the TOB gets as many points as the TDS is it. But it was still a difficult race for Vacansalaeil to get the points, mountains and team classification, 2 stages and a podium. So the Cq rewards them for it, rather than ignoring it like the PT.

Look ACF. I do think Cuddles is still one of the worlds best, and i really really want him to get that TOur victory, with no Conti and if he peaks just right.
And in cycling, having simply the best rider can sometimes be better than having a team of very good riders, especially if that rider wins the Tour. But if you look past Cadel, and at the season as a whole, Vacansaleil does have riders who will do far more next season.

If my memory serves me correct no invites to monuments,

Dont you remember this? Last man to get dropped by Canc.

I was hoping he could hang on and then work with Canc for a podium spot but oh well.

 

[Mellow Velo]

Given that both teams were registered and primarily riding at the same level,
the European Tour rankings are the ones which should be used to gauge respective success.
However, given one can argue that BMC had their best riders involved in PT/GT races,
that comparison doesn't fly either.

As for ACF's posting of rankings for races where only one of the two teams was invited to ride,
then arguing that these results show that Vacan weren't good enough to get an invite to said races......
Well, that's just pure ACF logic..............but nobody else's.

I agree Hitch, that the ET rankings are only useful to highlight Vacan's incredibly fruitful season within that calander.
Otherwise, it's like trying to compare chalk and cheese.

 

[Matthijs]

Europe Tour includes highly regarded races as Paris-Tours, Omloop het nieuwsblad, Giro del Emilia, Eroica strade bianchi and so on. It's not just omloop van de sarthe and tour of britain stuff vacansoleil scored their points in...

 

[hrotha]

Well, actually he wasn't to be fair. At 23 Davis had three wins and 13 podiums and Kristoff has three wins and 24 podiums and over twice as many CQranking points.

Perhaps if you compare them again at 24 years then Davis might be ahead depending on Kristoffs 2011 but at 23 I would say that Kristoff has shown more results. Though it's always hard to compare efforts that are so far apart in time.

After checking, you're right, I guess I was thinking of Davis' 2004 results.