"Vast Majority Of Riders Are Clean"

[ambrose]

Do you own a powermeter bros.... Thats a lot of power your talking about no kidding. Get on the TT bike and see how long you can hold 485 for in the aero position! 31 bloody minutes nonstop! Try it ha ha ha...Next up... Push 500 watts for that amount of time on the road bike on a climb.

This was using a SRM on the ergo. granted it is not the same as on the road. However my point was more along the lines that these are achievable goals.Hes had many years to build up to this power and has trained specifically for it. these are acheivable numbers. not every one is capable of this, but the gifted are

 

[BigBoat]

Cyclismag is famous to publish calculated power evaluation on last climb on TDF mountain stages. They use a reference rider of 78kg, time and elevation to get their numbers.
Before the EPO era, the best "rider" was just under 400W for a climb longer than 30mn, from 93 to today riders were able to sustain more than 450W, record close of 480W like Armstrong or Riis.
So Lance Armstrong has gained around 100W by meeting Dr. Ferrari, more than 20%. He had only a 375W engine on his 4 first TDF.

Yup....Ferrari for ya!

 

[BigBoat]

This was using a SRM on the ergo. granted it is not the same as on the road. However my point was more along the lines that these are achievable goals.Hes had many years to build up to this power and has trained specifically for it. these are acheivable numbers. not every one is capable of this, but the gifted are

You can do 440 watts for 4 minutes clean bros. No problamo for a talented rider. In fact a clean super talent could hold that for 10-15 minutes at Pinnoti's weight. Thats why Pinotti lied by saying he only had 440 watts on that 1.3 kilometer hill that took 4 minutes. I wonder what the power really was!

The 486 watts for 31 minutes that Larsson had is nuts and "JACKED though the roof!"

 

[Mellow Velo]

-There are several guys, including one in the top ten, who rode last year's tour clean

Assuming we all know who you are talking about here.
Fair enough.
10%, when the title of the thread is "Vast Majority".
Not "Vast Minority".

I'm afraid Anne Gripper has gone over to the dark side. Towing the party passport line, in an attempt to deflect from the fact that the UCI have sunk a lot of cash into a pink elephant.

 

[neil69cyclist]

Great technical thread, just found myself getting more and more depressed about all of this !!! Did read this morning in the comic that Fignon said he took a shed load of amphetamines when he was racing and that everyone was doing it (we kinda new this ) but now I want Lemond to own up as I am sick of his holier than thou attitude, we knock LA for his miraculous 'clean' comeback but we have to remember Lemond was SHOT IN THE HEART !!!

 

[BigBoat]

Great technical thread, just found myself getting more and more depressed about all of this !!! Did read this morning in the comic that Fignon said he took a shed load of amphetamines when he was racing and that everyone was doing it (we kinda new this ) but now I want Lemond to own up as I am sick of his holier than thou attitude, we knock LA for his miraculous 'clean' comeback but we have to remember Lemond was SHOT IN THE HEART !!!

I like Lemond and I think he was almost totally clean apart from corticoids shots to treat a bad knee apparently... Funny Lemond always likes to say his tour wins were not a miracle... And they werent. He was one of the biggest talents of that era, maybe all time.

In the 80s they had stimulants obviously, HGH extracted from bodies, testosterone, and corticoids... Its all "peanuts" compared to a jacked crit with epo.

I dont believe he was a big doper. And a big doper would have sure been jacked to $hit on epo by 1994. He might have been totally clean. He certainly "missed the epo boat" big time. LOL

 

[BigBoat]

The good UCI protour and continental riders like to take 800cc refills of their own packed red cells (blood) right before races after blood controls. It only takes 20 minute to put in 3 units (250cc per unit). This gives perhaps a hematocrit (crit) boost of 9 points. You could go to 59% if you had a naturally high crit excuse like Ricco did.

They hemodilute on normal saline for controls, and they use human albumin There are other plasma expanders out there that they use... The Bio passport looks at the amount of hemoglobin per sample and that is very adjustible with hemodilution and training off of blood (say 2 units or 500ml.) They can dump it by draining blood from a 16 or 17 guage needle into a Pepsi can or some other container and dumping it down the sink... Or into a blood bag with preserving solution and into the fridge at 4 degrees to be infused later in the race. The body immediately replaces blood loss with plasma volume so your crit will drop and a good doctor can time a riders "natural" blood levels to happen right for the controls. They are able to now preserve blood (whole or packed red cells) that retain their original values (rectics). So they cannot be busted on dead cells which is looked at in blood samples.

The riders IV dose human identical epo (Dynepo) to stimulate rectics. This cant be tested for! Yet riders are still so careless that recently one was busted for regular old epo (Kolom)...

HGH, or IGF-1 boost recovery and cant be tested for. Insulin too! There are all sorts of 02 carrying boosters like the old hemopure/ oxyglobin the riders used back in 2002. Its a joke to say riders in the Tour de France are clean. A JOKE! The tour doctors constantly used to spout that riders show no signs of doping and everybody's clean! They must really have a laugh producing that dribble to the media.

Have a nice day.

I forgot to add that its dangerous for them to be over 54% crit. They will take aspirin every day to avoid clot risks and they train off blood before sleeping as described. 18 guage needles better as to not damage red cells. I think I'm fairly accurate though... Thats about what the top guys do.

 

[neil69cyclist]

BigBoat,

I'm not sure how you can say that Lemond was around in one of the other key drug eras (remember Theunisse and kimmage spitting in the soup) they were using amphet and steroid, I raced in Spain for a season (amateur, accommodation food bike and to pairs of shorts and jerseys ..... rock'n'roll ) in '93' and I was being offered hand me downs syringes. I was fu++ing knackered after 4 months and realised that it is so tough without the support and I cam back sick and disillusioned (chronic anemia, saddle sore).

I believe that actually Lemond may have been 'cleaner' than most but I don't believe he was squeaky along with many others.

So where does this get us, LA has 'never' tested positive and many of his piers have but was he the most doped therefore the fasted or was he the best rider in a 'level' playing field 7 tours don't come from just a jab in the ****.

Sean Kelly I believe was probably the only clean rider.........god I hope so or I will lose all faith.

 

[BigBoat]

BigBoat,

I'm not sure how you can say that Lemond was around in one of the other key drug eras (remember Theunisse and kimmage spitting in the soup) they were using amphet and steroid, I raced in Spain for a season (amateur, accommodation food bike and to pairs of shorts and jerseys ..... rock'n'roll ) in '93' and I was being offered hand me downs syringes. I was fu++ing knackered after 4 months and realised that it is so tough without the support and I cam back sick and disillusioned (chronic anemia, saddle sore).

I believe that actually Lemond may have been 'cleaner' than most but I don't believe he was squeaky along with many others.

So where does this get us, LA has 'never' tested positive and many of his piers have but was he the most doped therefore the fasted or was he the best rider in a 'level' playing field 7 tours don't come from just a jab in the ****.

Sean Kelly I believe was probably the only clean rider.........god I hope so or I will lose all faith.

Believe it or not it was still possible for a freaky talented rider to beat doped riders in this era... Because the steroids didnt do "much" for FTP. Its hard to believe but I think he might have been clean... His V02 max was 92.5. This was during the winter and certainly not on epo or blood doping.

Lance was doped from day one for sure... He started racing as a pro after epo came out... Lances highest undoped V02 max By the way 11(!!!) whopping points less than Lemonds... In fact if Lance and Lemond had a race clean I think right now if Lemond got back down to 150 pounds he could beat Lance as a 48 year old if both were clean.

... epo was basically laughy taffy candy by 1993 and Lance must be a damn good responder to a jacked hematocrit in order to jack from an 81 V02 max to a world champion.

 

[pmcg76]

BigBoat,

****.

Sean Kelly I believe was probably the only clean rider.........god I hope so or I will lose all faith.

Best not to have idols in cycling, you will only be dissappointed. Sad, unfortunate but true. If you want idols to follow, best to follow a sport that is not serious about combating doping or corruption so most other sports then.

 

[neil69cyclist]

BigBoat,

You really know your onions, but can I just say that there are people out there testing the riders who have been trying to catch LA for years and while not really and LA fan in any way he along with the rest of the peleton were being tested heavily for various substances and even though they only recently created a robust EPO test they were measuring and therefore many top riders (as we have seen) will have been doing similar.

As for Lemond still not convinced and if the adage of one freak could that not apply to LA especially as he was basically a 1 race rider, he focused and trained for a specific 3 week period ( I may be playing devils advocate here) and we can throw out lots V02 data but on the day it's also who gets the break (LA's world champs in the rain on a crappy course), there are many other riders who have won stages and races by getting the right break.

 

[anubisza]

I think it's fair to assume that the majority of riders from the past generation must have had exposure to some form of doping. You're bound to be disappointed if you think all the greats did it clean.

 

[neil69cyclist]

i think it's fair to assume that the majority of riders from the past generation must have had exposure to some form of doping. You're bound to be disappointed if you think all the greats did it clean.

nnnnnnnnnnnooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Zoncolan]

Sean Kelly I believe was probably the only clean rider.........god I hope so or I will lose all faith.

There's no such a thing as a clean champion. Paris-Bruxelles 1984 Kelly positive http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/results/1999/may99/may20.shtml
If there ever was a clean cycling champ, it was Gino Bartali, I also believe Bahamontes was clean. Coppi, Anquetil, Merckx, Hinault, de Vlaeminck... were all on something. And if we move into the 80's and especially 90's, you'd really struggle to find any clean winners of big races.

 

[Parrot23]

Hey, BigBoat, have you seen this on the Dauphine thread?

Originally Posted by Parrot23:
Commentator on cycling.tv just said Robert Gesink can put out 7 watts/kg. I've read before it's very high, but.... Anyone?..."

Dekker_Tifosi responds:
"7,3 w/kg actually. In the maximal test over 30 minutes he can putt out 505W, which is, for his length and weight, extroardinary high. Just not so much explosivity as the big guns yet."

http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showthread.php?t=1141&page=31

Wikipedia says he's nearly 6'2", and is 68 kgs.

Don't want to give you a coronary over your latté this AM, , but these numbers seem a tad high? LOL

 

[Anonymous]

If a top team rode clean they would never finish anybody in the top 50 places in the Tour de France no matter how talented their acquisitions... The management and the rider's goals are to ride the TDF because its their dream to do so. Likely the pro riders have a history of EPO, hgh, testosterone doping dating back to their junior or U-23 year old days. So to say they are gonna be clean for the pros is really laughable to begin with.

Clean They'd never come close to winning a stage or getting any good stage results and I say that with complete seriousness and I'm not over-doing it. In fact they would never ride well enough (win races at the top in Europe) without doping. So they would not even exist at the very top of the sport to begin with most likely...

The top riders that earn world class wins (that gets a Pro Continental team selected for a race like the TDF) blood dope with their own blood which gives up to a bloody 25% increase in sustainable power. A clean talented rider would never ever beat a talented blood doped rider unless the doper F-d up big time by crashing, or just being a total idiot in general.

You have to look at power outputs at the top which have been leaked. Hunter Allen F-d up when he released Gustov Larsson's TT power in California (486 watts for 31 minutes). He had about 6.3 watts per kilo for that effort. Talented past freaks like Lemond and Fingon who WON the TDF only could do about 5.8 maybe 5.9 for that length of time.

Now, just look at how much of a nobody Larsson is in Grand Tours. Not even top 50 maybe... He sure as hell will never win it. Yet he hold far more watts than what past winners could. This insight (Hunter Allen being a total genius by releasing the power data of his doped client) shows us that all the top riders are heavily doped.

Yet people from the uci, (Gripper) claim that all are clean and only 5 bloody riders out of 840 get taken out. Do you really think that expert stage racer Cauchtiolli who was blood doped with a 20% power gains (who was 3rd a few years back in the Giro) could not keep up with clean riders? It make zilch sense to believe what the UCI is saying here and it reeks of heavy corruption among all interested parties. If this isnt obvious to somebody I dont know what else I can say!

i think you are copy pasting things you're written else where over and over here.

am i see this right? this is posted 11 minutes after the first post of the thread?

what's going on here? who's paying this guy?

i certainly don't hear you say anything i haven't heard fifty times already?

 

[Sheltowee]

The good UCI protour and continental riders like to take 800cc refills of their own packed red cells (blood) right before races after blood controls. It only takes 20 minute to put in 3 units (250cc per unit). This gives perhaps a hematocrit (crit) boost of 9 points. You could go to 59% if you had a naturally high crit excuse like Ricco did.

They hemodilute on normal saline for controls, and they use human albumin There are other plasma expanders out there that they use... The Bio passport looks at the amount of hemoglobin per sample and that is very adjustible with hemodilution and training off of blood (say 2 units or 500ml.) They can dump it by draining blood from a 16 or 17 guage needle into a Pepsi can or some other container and dumping it down the sink... Or into a blood bag with preserving solution and into the fridge at 4 degrees to be infused later in the race. The body immediately replaces blood loss with plasma volume so your crit will drop and a good doctor can time a riders "natural" blood levels to happen right for the controls. They are able to now preserve blood (whole or packed red cells) that retain their original values (rectics). So they cannot be busted on dead cells which is looked at in blood samples.

The riders IV dose human identical epo (Dynepo) to stimulate rectics. This cant be tested for! Yet riders are still so careless that recently one was busted for regular old epo (Kolom)...

HGH, or IGF-1 boost recovery and cant be tested for. Insulin too! There are all sorts of 02 carrying boosters like the old hemopure/ oxyglobin the riders used back in 2002. Its a joke to say riders in the Tour de France are clean. A JOKE! The tour doctors constantly used to spout that riders show no signs of doping and everybody's clean! They must really have a laugh producing that dribble to the media.

Have a nice day.

One thing I can say, BigBoat, you didn't work for Gerolsteiner last year because if you had Kohl, Schumi & co. wouldn't have got caught. If I had a team I would want you working for me.

 

[BroDeal]

i think you are copy pasting things you're written else where over and over here.

am i see this right? this is posted 11 minutes after the first post of the thread?

what's going on here? who's paying this guy?

i certainly don't hear you say anything i haven't heard fifty times already?

That is why Tom Morris/BigBoat is a troll. It is what got him kicked off of cyclingforums and every other forum. He posts the same stuff every day of every week of every year, over and over and over. Most of it is not actually copie and pasted. He just gets stuck on something, and pretty soon you are reading about cow blood twenty times a day in posts where it is not relevant. Currently he is stuck on power and spends his time making wild allegations about it.

 

[Anonymous]

Sean Kelly I believe was probably the only clean rider.........god I hope so or I will lose all faith.

ok.. i hate to break this to you.. now i love sean, he was a hero of mine and always will be.. it sent shivers through me when he saw me on a tdf stage wearing a pdm shirt and waved, if only hed seen teh wife in a kas one... every time i walk up the champs elysees i get excited foreign people grabbing the shirt and screaming "shawn kellee"

But.. this is a guy who was so jacked he had to make his mechanic do a urine test for him, and the mechanic failed becuase hed worked so late into the night on the bikes he had taken drugs to keep him going..

 

[BikeCentric]

ok.. i hate to break this to you.. now i love sean, he was a hero of mine and always will be.. it sent shivers through me when he saw me on a tdf stage wearing a pdm shirt and waved, if only hed seen teh wife in a kas one... every time i walk up the champs elysees i get excited foreign people grabbing the shirt and screaming "shawn kellee"

But.. this is a guy who was so jacked he had to make his mechanic do a urine test for him, and the mechanic failed becuase hed worked so late into the night on the bikes he had taken drugs to keep him going..

This is true; sad but true. Sean is currently a great announcer as well - I actually think he is the best commentator in cycling in terms of analysis right now and he'll likely get more exposure going forward as Phil & Paul are definitely on the way out.

 

[Boundary]

That is why Tom Morris/BigBoat is a troll. It is what got him kicked off of cyclingforums and every other forum. He posts the same stuff every day of every week of every year, over and over and over. Most of it is not actually copie and pasted. He just gets stuck on something, and pretty soon you are reading about cow blood twenty times a day in posts where it is not relevant. Currently he is stuck on power and spends his time making wild allegations about it.

Big Boat is not Tom Morris. He is Real Gains. Sometimes he is wrong but he knows what he is talking about.

 

[dominicsavio]

Doping.

I think that most people who cycle professionally are clean from banned substances. However, some do use insulin injections, oxygen tents etc. If a few cheat, then it does not follow that we must scrap cycling. Those who won cheating, have the drugs to thank. In an ideal world, it would be the taking part and not the winning that counts. Many doctors point out that a result of doping is a certain early death.

 

[BigBoat]

That is why Tom Morris/BigBoat is a troll. It is what got him kicked off of cyclingforums and every other forum. He posts the same stuff every day of every week of every year, over and over and over. Most of it is not actually copie and pasted. He just gets stuck on something, and pretty soon you are reading about cow blood twenty times a day in posts where it is not relevant. Currently he is stuck on power and spends his time making wild allegations about it.

Bro no Tom Morris is NOT flyer and I'm not Flyer. I know who Flyer was and I know who the guy is in real life with a quick search.

Bro, Garmin Blood dopes BIG TIME. They never would have been top 3 in the TTT or top 5 in the TDF. Stop trying to believe a bunch of nonsense about being clean.... They'd need 50 watts (tiny invisisble electric motor) on their bikes...

.... If they had been clean at alll you'd never have seen their butts they'd have all been 4 minutes behind in the opening tt and 30 mins or more after the first mountain stage. The riders all dope. Pro sports are funny... The sports world is funny in general. Hazing, and such. Nobody being able to get along... "Rabid" dope controls.

 

[neil69cyclist]

yeah i do remember now that kelly got done but hey i think i'll just have to live in denial

 

[BigBoat]

Hey, BigBoat, have you seen this on the Dauphine thread?

Originally Posted by Parrot23:
Commentator on cycling.tv just said Robert Gesink can put out 7 watts/kg. I've read before it's very high, but.... Anyone?..."

Dekker_Tifosi responds:
"7,3 w/kg actually. In the maximal test over 30 minutes he can putt out 505W, which is, for his length and weight, extroardinary high. Just not so much explosivity as the big guns yet."

http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showthread.php?t=1141&page=31

Wikipedia says he's nearly 6'2", and is 68 kgs.

Don't want to give you a coronary over your latté this AM, , but these numbers seem a tad high? LOL

I dont think he's that high for FTP (all out 1-hour)... upper 6s. He certainly is blood doped all the F-ing time. Robo has a really strong season going this year.

If any of you think this is possible clean get on a bike and see how long you can hold 505 watts if you weigh 142 pounds. (he did it for almost 30 mins...) This Gesink is a stick that weighs about 145-150 during the winter and even less during the season. I mean christ I weigh that much (when Im fit) and I can barely do that for 2 mins (120 seconds) if I'm lucky. I'm a cat 1 for F sakes, i tried it on my ride today guys. LOL