"Vast Majority Of Riders Are Clean"

[BroDeal]

Big Boat is not Tom Morris. He is Real Gains. Sometimes he is wrong but he knows what he is talking about.

Look down to the "Flyer" thread where we discuss whether BigBoat is Morris or RealGains. The content is like RealGains but the relentless redundancy is like Morris.

 

[BigBoat]

I think that most people who cycle professionally are clean from banned substances. However, some do use insulin injections, oxygen tents etc. If a few cheat, then it does not follow that we must scrap cycling. Those who won cheating, have the drugs to thank. In an ideal world, it would be the taking part and not the winning that counts. Many doctors point out that a result of doping is a certain early death.

The 02 deprivation tent are all a BIT TIME cover up for epo use.. You cant get a much crit boost from the tents dominic and if you do your training would suffer hugely because of the 02 deprivation while sleeping... Your body recovers from damage while sleeping.

But, they do like to use epo then use the tents to lessen the need for epo so they dont risk a positive... Or have to buy less epo. The tents are very very expensive and a scam as far as raising crit. The reason the pros own them is to show the UCI or others "why" their crit is 49% on epo. Its because of my "altitude training" or my "hynoxic tent." ha ya right! Thats why we have guys test positive for epo every month. Right dominic....

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

Hes had many years to build up to this power and has trained specifically for it. these are acheivable numbers.

Not so. Once you're really fit on that level, from about the age of 21 or so, your power increases only very slightly. A tiny amount.

Keep in mind that Eddy Merckx was putting out about 385w on big climbs in his era. Fascinating isn't it, when guys today can top that by 20%.

Sean Kelly wasn't squeaky clean. But he was a great racer who won during an time when doping gave minimal gains from ephedrine based uppers, steroids, etc. compared to O2 boosters over the last 15 years. Sean would have won clean anyway, maybe just a little less. Still a great champion.

I don't know that Lemond was perfectly clean. I'd be willing to bet he had some corticoid injections, especially during his time with Guimard, though maybe he wasn't completely aware at the time of what they all were. Don't think he, or anyone else on LaVie Clare was on anything. Paul Kocheli was insistent about it, and there's every indication the team was clean then. But regardless of his past, it doesn't change the facts of today, and the numbers of today.

My problem with BigBoat isn't his information, much of it is probably accurate, it's his strident insistence that is at times overbearing and turns people away. Don't care if he's RealGains from CEM, Flyer or Tom Morris, or anyone else, as long as he behaves himself, and can give more info and links while posting his sometimes wild claims.

I do have faith in Garmin being almost clean, maybe, possible clean. But I honestly don't know about CVV. Maybe. But Garmin is not TIAA-Cref, a team that I am pretty confident were clean. So who knows?

A lot of people, (even Bobby Julich) were surprised and shocked about Tyler Hamilton popping +. In retrospect, he was doped to the gills for some time.

 

[titan_90]

I don't believe the vast majority are clean at all, they simply have ways to fool the tests. Are some riders clean sure, but only a few.

 

[bikeboy]

So you don't believe Pinotti “Only” did 440w for 4 minutes up the mur de huy???
Well I do as I did "only" 409w on the same climb but I weigh about 3-4 kg less than Marco.

Doing 440w in training when fresh is a lot different than doing it in a race after 200km. I often crank out 5 minute intervals at over 450w in training but hardly ever do that even once in racing!

Not sure of Larsons's weight but he is a big lad with a big frontal area and 6.3w/kg for someone who got second I the Olympics for 31 minutes is highly achievable.

Have a little faith people please.

 

[BroDeal]

I don't believe the vast majority are clean at all, they simply have ways to fool the tests. Are some riders clean sure, but only a few.

Kohl's information indicates how easy it is to keep doping a quick matter done on the sly with his team unaware.

When FLandis talked to LeMond on the phone he said he could not come clean because "it would destroy a lot of his friends and hurt a lot of people." He implied that there were people around him, probably very close to him, that he had been lying to, probably for years. It is easy to imagine that for the longest time he had been telling his wife, family, and close friends that he was not doping, perhaps while feigning faux outrage over those who were.

 

[elapid]

-increasing one's hemocratic level artificially has been proven to increase a rider's performance anywhere from 5-8 percent. That's a lot, but no where near the '20 percent' nonsense you're spewing, which has about as much validity as the rest of your post

Where's your evidence for this? Try this out for size:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17668232?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DiscoveryPanel.Pubmed_Discovery_RA&linkpos=1&log$=relatedarticles&logdbfrom=pubmed

EPO increased VO2 max by 12% and time-to-exhaustion (80% VO2 max) by a whopping 54% in a placebo-controlled study. Admittedly, these are healthy non-athletes and not professional cyclists, but 54%!

Birkland (Med Sci Sports Exerc 32:1238-43, 2000) showed a 7% increase in VO2 max in a double-blind, placebo-controlled study with cyclists. They didn't test the time-to-exhaustion, but based on the above study, an increase of 20-30% would be considered reasonable.

And this from http://miketnelson.blogspot.com/2008/07/does-epo-enhance-performance.html: A limited number of human studies of the effects of EPO in healthy males [18,38,20,21] and in endurance trained athletes[19,17]. The data from these studies on either healthy or trained humans suggests that moderate rhEPO supplementation results in significant increases in VO2 max (7 to 9%) and endurance performance (9 to 17%).

So, please show the evidence for your 5-8% improvement. From what I can find in the scientific literature, EPO increases VO2 max by 7-12% and endurance by 9-54%.

 

[BigBoat]

Where's your evidence for this? Try this out for size:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17668232?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DiscoveryPanel.Pubmed_Discovery_RA&linkpos=1&log$=relatedarticles&logdbfrom=pubmed

EPO increased VO2 max by 12% and time-to-exhaustion (80% VO2 max) by a whopping 54% in a placebo-controlled study. Admittedly, these are healthy non-athletes and not professional cyclists, but 54%!

Birkland (Med Sci Sports Exerc 32:1238-43, 2000) showed a 7% increase in VO2 max in a double-blind, placebo-controlled study with cyclists. They didn't test the time-to-exhaustion, but based on the above study, an increase of 20-30% would be considered reasonable.

And this from http://miketnelson.blogspot.com/2008/07/does-epo-enhance-performance.html: A limited number of human studies of the effects of EPO in healthy males [18,38,20,21] and in endurance trained athletes[19,17]. The data from these studies on either healthy or trained humans suggests that moderate rhEPO supplementation results in significant increases in VO2 max (7 to 9%) and endurance performance (9 to 17%).

So, please show the evidence for your 5-8% improvement. From what I can find in the scientific literature, EPO increases VO2 max by 7-12% and endurance by 9-54%.

Even more than that... Like 20% more FTP power with a 54% crit... And some can get 25% going to a 59% crit.

 

[BroDeal]

Even more than that... Like 20% more FTP power with a 54% crit... And some can get 25% going to a 59% crit.

The Science of Sport website has had a number of interesting articles in this area. In the article below they discuss the above study and what it means for elite cycling.

http://www.sportsscientists.com/2007/11/effect-of-epo-on-performance-who.html

 

[BigBoat]

The Science of Sport website has had a number of interesting articles in this area. In the article below they discuss the above study and what it means for elite cycling.

http://www.sportsscientists.com/2007/11/effect-of-epo-on-performance-who.html

Bro, they gained 13% sustainable power.... This will make your all out 5 minute V02 max repeats your bloody 60 minute TT power.

And they did not jack all the way to 57-60% and risk their health. If they did the gains would have been greater. Most can get 15-20% if they jack all the way... And some 25%.

 

[BigBoat]

I mean christ... You Would make your all out 6-8 minute power on a 2 mile climb become your 60 minute power on a 12 mile climb. You still think that Zabriskie is clean (or Larsson who averaged almost 500 watts.) LOL

Brodeal... Try epo and see.

 

[Returnofthewolf]

I dont think he's that high for FTP (all out 1-hour)... upper 6s. He certainly is blood doped all the F-ing time. Robo has a really strong season going this year.

If any of you think this is possible clean get on a bike and see how long you can hold 505 watts if you weigh 142 pounds. (he did it for almost 30 mins...) This Gesink is a stick that weighs about 145-150 during the winter and even less during the season. I mean christ I weigh that much (when Im fit) and I can barely do that for 2 mins (120 seconds) if I'm lucky. I'm a cat 1 for F sakes, i tried it on my ride today guys. LOL

Do you ever shutup? GARBAGE IN GARBAGE OUT, again! It is so sad (and kind of entertaining) to see your flock of knuckleheads follow you like the pied piper. You clearly have some knowledge, I'll give you that - but B U T, so much of what you say is FLAT OUT WRONG...I dont know where to begin, I dont have the time.

Anyway, the Gesink numbers are OBVIOUSLY at the end of an incremental maximal test. He did NOT hold 500 watts for 30 minutes. Im not sure the exact protocol of the test that was referred to, but I would guess this puts his ftp around 390. (still crazy high)

You think Gustav Larsson weighs 72-74kg's, he's SIX FUKKING FOUR dude! Not to mention the TOC time trial issue has been covered thoroughly months ago (you know this but choose to ignore it) and he probably averaged about 470 watts at 79-80 kg for 30 minutes. Im not saying any of this makes him clean or dirty, the point is to stick with the facts. You are a LIAR, plain and simple. You have explosive projectile diarrhea of the mouth and it is lapped up around here by your feral band of corprophiliacs. Yes, exactly, disgusting.

You like to talk about what freaks Lemond(you I think) and Fignon were, but somehow their level of performance(w/kg) is not possible by the riders of today; clean. Well the fact is for every 1 outlier/superfreak 20-30 years ago, there are probably 5-6 today, as the talent pool has grown by probably 5-6 (educated guess) times with the globablization of cycling/population growth/$$$.

And now Im gonna hit you where it hurts only because you deserve it: I think (unbiased) Lordstrong is the best GT racer in the history of cycling.
Yes, pound for pound, on a level playing field, better than Greg. If the impending number 8 doesnt seal the deal, I dont know what will...

 

[BigBoat]

Wolf.... I've seen Gustov. A stick! he has his weight listed as 77kg... If everybody was clean and there was no doping I'd bet the damn house Lance would never ever be top 30 in a Tour... $100 bucks he wouldnt even be top 60 places. Many, many guys can get Lances undoped V02 max.

I didnt look at the Gesink thing at all. I took what somebody wrote... I should have looked at it myself. I didnt know it was a ride to exhaustion.

And I'm not Flyer who I know the identity (anybody would rather quickly find out) if they looked around the internet room.

Cheers Wolf.

 

[slcbiker]

Not so. Once you're really fit on that level, from about the age of 21 or so, your power increases only very slightly. A tiny amount.

Keep in mind that Eddy Merckx was putting out about 385w on big climbs in his era. Fascinating isn't it, when guys today can top that by 20%.

I'm pretty sure Eddy wasn't running a Powertap or an SRM. Do you actually have any way of proving your 385 number? Or is it some sort of imputed number (in which case there's all sorts of variables). Or are you just throwing numbers out for the heck of it?

 

[Returnofthewolf]

Cheers Wolf.

Well nobody could claim that you're not an affable chap.

Clean in it up though brother

Gonna sneak a ride in now...

 

[Bala Verde]

I'm pretty sure Eddy wasn't running a Powertap or an SRM. Do you actually have any way of proving your 385 number? Or is it some sort of imputed number (in which case there's all sorts of variables). Or are you just throwing numbers out for the heck of it?

I think they measured it, perhaps even retrospectively, by refering to the amount of calories burnt. Ie if you burn 1000 cal in an hour (1000 * 1000)/(60*60) = you'll have put out around 277W/hr. It's a rather primitive method, and some more knowledgeable person can probably fill you in on that.

I just found the following figures though, produced by Sabino Padilla, the former Banesto doctor I believe. It's re the hr record.:

Cyclist - Distance - Date - Mass, kg - CX, m2 - Power, W

Merckx - 49.432 - 10/25/1972 - 72 - 0.2618 - 380
Moser - 51.151 - 1/21/1984 - 76 - 0.2481 - 400
Obree - 52.713 - 4/27/1994 - 71 - 0.172 - 359
Indurain - 53.04 - 9/2/1994 - 81 - 0.2441 - 510
Rominger - 55.291 - 11/5/1994 - 65 - 0.1932 - 456
Boardman - 56.375 - 9/6/1996 - 69 - 0.1838 - 462

When normalized for power to weight ratio, you'll find the following:

Cyclist W/Kg
Merckx 5.3
Moser 5.3
Obree 5.1
Indurain 6.3
Rominger 7.0
Boardman 6.7

It must be mentioned that Moser and Merckx rode at 8000ft in Mexico City, which would account for some loss of power (estimated 10%), so their normal sea level power would be 5.8 W/Kg.

I do think improvements are possible over the span of 40 years, with better training, more specific training, better nutrition, better equipment (less power loss) and aero positions, but I obviously can't say what lies within reach of human capabilities.

 

[BigBoat]

Funny comment from UCI doping chief Parisotto :

"I don’t think that just because there was an announcement yesterday that they are all going to suddenly pack up their blood doping gear and run away. I still think people are going to be at it. For that reason I would certainly back Anne’s comments up – these are not the last [announced passport cases] by any means."

There will still be positives sprinkled throughout the whole season and amongst all the teams... setting it up hahahahaha

 

[Anonymous]

I think that most people who cycle professionally are clean from banned substances. However, some do use insulin injections, oxygen tents etc. If a few cheat, then it does not follow that we must scrap cycling. Those who won cheating, have the drugs to thank. In an ideal world, it would be the taking part and not the winning that counts. Many doctors point out that a result of doping is a certain early death.

welcome newcomer...

a lot of good info on doping here.

and some info and opionions that are over the top.

be prepared to defend you positions because we all defend ours vigorously.

fasten you seat belt, hang on tight. it can get kinda bumpy

 

[Escarabajo]

The Science of Sport website has had a number of interesting articles in this area. In the article below they discuss the above study and what it means for elite cycling.

http://www.sportsscientists.com/2007/11/effect-of-epo-on-performance-who.html

Thanks BroDeal.

Returnofthewolf, here you go. Read some of this and see how a “middle of the pack” rider can be turned into a Tour contender, and even a Champion.

 

[BroDeal]

Thanks BroDeal.

Returnofthewolf, here you go. Read some of this and see how a “middle of the pack” rider can be turned into a Tour contender, and even a Champion.

That site by the way is a great site. The look at things with a measured and moderate approach of what is known and the limitations of existing research. Basically it is the exact opposite of BigBoat's wild, authoritative bullsh!t.

The only problem with the site is that it was moved over from blogspot and a lot of links still go through the old site.

 

[slcbiker]

Bala Verde, interesting data, but don't know how much I'd trust it. Computing calories or watts from just speed and mass is unreliable. Certainly Boardman was using a much more aero position and bike and would have thus potentially burned less calories and used fewer watts to go a longer distance than Merckx. And this is just in the controlled environment of a track. The quote mentioned was about 385 watts climbing hills, where there's even more variables to take into account if you don't actually have a power meter.

On a side note on that data, they have Boardman weighing less than Merckx. Certainly from pictures I've seen of both in their racing days, that would surprise me.

 

[titan_90]

Funny comment from UCI doping chief Parisotto :

"I don’t think that just because there was an announcement yesterday that they are all going to suddenly pack up their blood doping gear and run away. I still think people are going to be at it. For that reason I would certainly back Anne’s comments up – these are not the last [announced passport cases] by any means."

There will still be positives sprinkled throughout the whole season and amongst all the teams... setting it up hahahahaha

I bet a bunch of riders are s**ting themselves every time the phone rings.

 

[stephens]

Lance was doped from day one for sure... He started racing as a pro after epo came out... Lances highest undoped V02 max By the way 11(!!!) whopping points less than Lemonds...

I've asked you before where you get Lance's VO2 max. The other day you said 82 or 83, now in this thread you are claiming like 81. Most sources I've seen quote it at 85. But regardless, if you wish to be taken seriously (and you may not care), you should post some sort of source for all these power and vo2 numbers you toss out.

 

[keen_but_slow]

Bala Verde, interesting data, but don't know how much I'd trust it. Computing calories or watts from just speed and mass is unreliable. Certainly Boardman was using a much more aero position and bike and would have thus potentially burned less calories and used fewer watts to go a longer distance than Merckx. And this is just in the controlled environment of a track. The quote mentioned was about 385 watts climbing hills, where there's even more variables to take into account if you don't actually have a power meter.

On a side note on that data, they have Boardman weighing less than Merckx. Certainly from pictures I've seen of both in their racing days, that would surprise me.

The numbers are off. I'm 70kg when fit, and I put out 320W for an hour according to my SRM, and according to my own calculations and how fast I get up mountains. Obree rode away from me up a 6 minute climb in England like I wasn't moving - and this was long after he'd retired so he's more than 360.

I'm exactly the same height as Chris Boardman and probably the same weight and he used to murder me in time trials - 6-7 minutes over 25 miles - before he did the hour record first time and turned pro. His bike position similar to mine (I sat on his Lotus) so either he's super-slippery through the air or he's putting out a chunk over 400. Merckx was a much bigger chap. His saddle somewhere near my chin.

My VO2max is in the high 60s - I'm pretty ordinary. I was top 10% in cross-country in school but nowhere near the front.

I do believe that the guys still in the front group with 5km to go in the mountaintop finishes in the grand tours are getting help, but I base that on the fact that those occasions are at the end of long days after two weeks of racing and there's only so much water and carb a stomach can process. I ride up Alpe d'Huez 5 minutes slower at the end of the Marmotte than I do from scratch ... and the following day I ride up 2 minutes slower than normal (there's a hillclimb the next morning so I've done it).

BUT there's a lot of people on here seriously underestimating what can be done clean in a standalone effort. I'm happy that guy that's 6'4" and high 70s can belt out high 400s for half an hour if he's sat in the wheels all week and he's a natural talent like the kids that won cross-country in the regional schools races and left me for dead every week. A guy who has had to be in the front in the mountains every day and has to go full bore in the TTs puts out high 400s for 40 minutes from low 70s kgs on the last Wednesday in the Tour? No, not having that, sorry.

 

[BigBoat]

I've asked you before where you get Lance's VO2 max. The other day you said 82 or 83, now in this thread you are claiming like 81. Most sources I've seen quote it at 85. But regardless, if you wish to be taken seriously (and you may not care), you should post some sort of source for all these power and vo2 numbers you toss out.

Hi stephens. It was 5.9 liters per min for his highest clean. Or an 81.2 for Lances weight at the time. He adjusted it to 83.7 later on because he is lighter for Tours.