"Vast Majority Of Riders Are Clean"

[Alpe d'Huez]

Good post Keen.

 

[BigBoat]

The numbers are off. I'm 70kg when fit, and I put out 320W for an hour according to my SRM, and according to my own calculations and how fast I get up mountains. Obree rode away from me up a 6 minute climb in England like I wasn't moving - and this was long after he'd retired so he's more than 360.

I'm exactly the same height as Chris Boardman and probably the same weight and he used to murder me in time trials - 6-7 minutes over 25 miles - before he did the hour record first time and turned pro. His bike position similar to mine (I sat on his Lotus) so either he's super-slippery through the air or he's putting out a chunk over 400. Merckx was a much bigger chap. His saddle somewhere near my chin.

My VO2max is in the high 60s - I'm pretty ordinary. I was top 10% in cross-country in school but nowhere near the front.

I do believe that the guys still in the front group with 5km to go in the mountaintop finishes in the grand tours are getting help, but I base that on the fact that those occasions are at the end of long days after two weeks of racing and there's only so much water and carb a stomach can process. I ride up Alpe d'Huez 5 minutes slower at the end of the Marmotte than I do from scratch ... and the following day I ride up 2 minutes slower than normal (there's a hillclimb the next morning so I've done it).

BUT there's a lot of people on here seriously underestimating what can be done clean in a standalone effort. I'm happy that guy that's 6'4" and high 70s can belt out high 400s for half an hour if he's sat in the wheels all week and he's a natural talent like the kids that won cross-country in the regional schools races and left me for dead every week. A guy who has had to be in the front in the mountains every day and has to go full bore in the TTs puts out high 400s for 40 minutes from low 70s kgs on the last Wednesday in the Tour? No, not having that, sorry.

Hi Keen, welcome.

I believe Obree could have been clean for his TT records due to him being extremely aero. (home made positions). Also he was kicked off his top Euro dog Road race team for talking back about doping. I like Obree and I also liked his movie.

486 watts for 30 minutes is absolute death even if you are very very lean at 200 pounds.... Keen how long can you hold 490 watts for? You should really try it like I did yesterday.

Keen.... Read my 2nd post on this thread. Saxo Bank riders have their blood taken and Plasma spun off in a centrifuge (pure red cells.) Then their blood is frozen and in nitrogen at -80 degrees C and placed in even spaces on racks... Lasts for 10 blood years on the shelf... Only takes 20 minutes for a quick 3 unit transfusion after morning controls. Keen, You truly rode with Obree!? ask him what he thinks. I think he was extremely talented but DUMPED because he was clean Keen. Clean riders are either fired because they cant be trusted in a team full of dopers or they dont win anything at the top in Europe because their slower. Thats the sad reality. Obree once said:

"In my opinion, 99 per cent of riders at élite level take EPO or a similar drug, not particularly to dope themselves but to be at the same level as the others. And I find that rather sad."

 

[keen_but_slow]

486 watts for 30 minutes is absolute death even if you are very very lean at 200 pounds.... Keen how long can you hold 490 watts for? You should really try it like I did yesterday.

I wasn't very clear. I know there's doping at the top level and I know it's pretty much endemic, but I'm writing from the UK and I'm super-careful about what I write in public - our libel laws mean that the publisher (the website) can be taken to the cleaners if I type anything I can't substantiate in court and I don't have photographs of lancelot receiving a transfusion for an operation he hasn't had.

I was deliberately trying to blur it so I said high 400s instead of 490. My best short TT had a 360 average at 70kg and I'm not great .... so is 425 is definitiely possible for a pro at 80kg. 450 is possible too. 475? 500? I don't know but for a one-off effort I wouldn't be too quick to judge. If it's true that 80 is a pro VO2max then yeah 490 isn't real. I've also owned an SRM for long enough to know that some days it flatters me and some days it does the opposite!

 

[BigBoat]

Hey Keen... This is for you:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6q38Gyjv4EE&feature=channel_page

Watch this vid... (Crank the soundtrack LOL ) This is the power of Dr. Ferrari. In order to finish a Grand Tour You have to get within 15% of this guy's time... Within 38 minutes. Peanuts? Ha!

 

[craig1985]

The other thing is, I doubt Obree would of been able to afford to buy EPO etc. anyway. He could barely feed his family let alone do that.

 

[BigBoat]

The other thing is, I doubt Obree would of been able to afford to buy EPO etc. anyway. He could barely feed his family let alone do that.

Crag... He was DUMPED by his Euro Pro Dog team who were all jacked to the other side of the moon on epo, hGH or eGH, slin, cortisone "candy," test, etc, etc....

They didnt fire him because he didnt show up to that team meeting. They DUMPED his a$$ because he wouldnt dope and he didnt like doing drugs.

But I doubt he had more than 420 watts for his FTP power. You cant really get better than that clean. Indurain had 510 watts for FTP completely doped to Mars! But he probably started with 420 or so clean.

 

[davidg]

But I doubt he had more than 420 watts for his FTP power. You cant really get better than that clean.

Obree was clearly an phenomenal athlete.

Assuming he was clean (and I think he was), he bettered Merckx's hour record using a vastly superior bike and position, which was then bettered by Boardman among others.

When tasked with the Merckx hour record, Boardman broke it by a very small margin. Given that Merckx was pre EPO and Obree probably didnt use it, this puts him on a level close to Merckx. At least that is one theory.

I would like to think that Boardman was also clean ........

 

[BigBoat]

Hi stephens. It was 5.9 liters per min for his highest clean. Or an 81.2 for Lances weight at the time. He adjusted it to 83.7 later on because he is lighter for Tours.

This was Ed Coyle's V02 max tests on Lance in 1993 and 1999. He hit his highest ever clean number twice. Once at 22 and again at 28. It really is F- all in the realm of talented riders (an 81). Obree for example probably has more talent in his little pinky than lance has at all.

Upper range clean is about 93. Lance is a complete jerk, but you see its about "smarts" and "hookups" and Lance had this. Along with being a very good responder to drug therapy. A guy like Obree was how should I say... a loner, and not popular or known in Euro cycling, but incredibly talented. And DUMPED when they realized he wouldnt do drugs.

Boardman? He used epo for sure but he struggled with recovery which indicated he needed "growth" (HGH). And some testosterone. He rode on the Tour as a top pro... and he might not have had "help" recovering.

 

[franciep10]

Hey Keen... This is for you:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6q38Gyjv4EE&feature=channel_page

Watch this vid... (Crank the soundtrack LOL ) This is the power of Dr. Ferrari. In order to finish a Grand Tour You have to get within 15% of this guy's time... Within 38 minutes. Peanuts? Ha!

When I watched that I said there is no way the armstrong that I used to race against could do that, that's when I knew something was wrong, him giving pantani the win, I knew he wasn't clean before but that was different.

 

[franciep10]

I would like to think that Boardman was also clean ........

HA, that's rich.

 

[karlboss]

Vo2 isn't everything. It is an indicator. I know I tt at 190+/-2 my max heart rate is 215. My Vo2 max is oviously at 215. I've read Lance tts at the same heart rate as i do, but his max is 10 beats lower. What does this suggest to anyone who has noted the linear relationship between heartrate and O2 consumption? This was lance's advantage his LT is so damn high.
Be careful what you call impossible.
All increases since merckx in the hour record seem to have been from technology...until boardman came back to have another stab...so boardman is as doped as merckx. Remembering these guys are racing decades apart and boardmans position was great. Why not? I suppose you may point out that Lance etc would kill boardman...maybe.
Yes i think lance doped.

 

[keen_but_slow]

The other thing is, I doubt Obree would of been able to afford to buy EPO etc. anyway. He could barely feed his family let alone do that.

To be clear - I rode with him when he was in London to give a talk at the Sandown Park bike show thing. He'd long since retired and was talking about his just released book. He came out with the local ride in some walking boots with SPD cleats on the bottom and some 1980s clothing. Old bike with mudguards. When he turned up, all the young lads on their GBP5,000 bikes were looking down their noses at him. I'm thinking "I recognise this guy". I get chatting to him and realise who he is. On Box Hill (which is really pretty minor) he rode away. No attack, just rode at his own pace and was gone, and believe me I was trying to follow. I had to ride on the front with him all the way back - someone had to do it because he didn't know the way and nobody else could cope. He was chatting to me like he was at 120bpm and I was on the redline. No SRM that day which is a real shame, but I was at what felt like 300-320W. He was clean as a whistle that day, not training for anything and a cut above the rest of us.

If Boardman used EPO when he was at GAN, he was using it as an amateur when he rode for the mighty (!) Manchester Wheelers because there was no massive change in performance level from then.

 

[Ibanez]

Box Hill is a great climb. Its my own personal Alpe. Accelerating away from your group as you turn out of the second hairpin on the way up and then sprint out from underneath the tree cover into the sun is an awesome feeling when you are on a good day. I know every single imperfection in the tarmac. And the price of a cup of tea and a flapjack from the cafe at the top

 

[Bala Verde]

When I watched that I said there is no way the armstrong that I used to race against could do that, that's when I knew something was wrong, him giving pantani the win, I knew he wasn't clean before but that was different.

It's like watching Cavendish and Hushovd (or does anyone know of a 120lbs little baldheaded sprinter?) battling it out on a climb!

 

[BigBoat]

To be clear - I rode with him when he was in London to give a talk at the Sandown Park bike show thing. He'd long since retired and was talking about his just released book. He came out with the local ride in some walking boots with SPD cleats on the bottom and some 1980s clothing. Old bike with mudguards. When he turned up, all the young lads on their GBP5,000 bikes were looking down their noses at him. I'm thinking "I recognise this guy". I get chatting to him and realise who he is. On Box Hill (which is really pretty minor) he rode away. No attack, just rode at his own pace and was gone, and believe me I was trying to follow. I had to ride on the front with him all the way back - someone had to do it because he didn't know the way and nobody else could cope. He was chatting to me like he was at 120bpm and I was on the redline. No SRM that day which is a real shame, but I was at what felt like 300-320W. He was clean as a whistle that day, not training for anything and a cut above the rest of us.

If Boardman used EPO when he was at GAN, he was using it as an amateur when he rode for the mighty (!) Manchester Wheelers because there was no massive change in performance level from then.

I believe Obree is clean and is a freak.

Boardman could have sandbagged when he rode with you after joining GAN. Or with a low crit offseason and undoped. It only takes 6 weeks or so to jack all the way to 59% on epo.

He also could have been jacked as an amateur too.. He certainly was not clean for his Tour rides. LOL, those F-ers were so high to the sky no clean rider would have been top 50 in one of those Tour de France TTs. LOL No stretch either... Thats being gentle.

 

[pmcg76]

I believe Obree is clean and is a freak.

Boardman could have sandbagged when he rode with you after joining GAN. Or with a low crit offseason and undoped. It only takes 6 weeks or so to jack all the way to 59% on epo.

He also could have been jacked as an amateur too.. He certainly was not clean for his Tour rides. LOL, those F-ers were so high to the sky no clean rider would have been top 50 in one of those Tour de France TTs. LOL No stretch either... Thats being gentle.

Have you ever read A Rough Ride by Paul Kimmage, there is a piece in it about a French rider Nicolas Aubier quitting the sport in the late 90s because he didnt take EPO and was tired of the crap i.e. doping.

In the interivew, he is asked about how many riders dope, Aubier replies that he doesnt delieve it possible to make Top 50 on UCI ranking without resorting to doping, then suddenly correcting himself, well actually Boardman is the exception, I never seen him take anything. Aubier had been a team-mate of Boardman at GAN. Not 100% proof but then you do not have anything to the contrary.

Boardman never done anything in major GTs, top 50 overall once I think so you are contradicting your own beliefs here. He focused on prologues and TTs and he was usually beaten in the longer TTs, thats it. I believe Boardman was a freak and suffered because he didnt dope, he set a world record hour before he even turned pro and could have been a Tour contender if it wasnt for EPO, he never came close.

 

[slcbiker]

Boardman did have a reputation for being squeaky clean and anti-drug.
And certainly his success was largely limited to relatively shorter TTs. So maybe I could believe he was clean even if many others weren't.

 

[BigBoat]

Well I can respect that opinion... But I do not agree. I think Boardman used epo.

Obree IMO was booted out of Euro pro racing because of not doing epo. His home made bikes helped him a lot though with aero.

 

[BigBoat]

They can use Ringers Lactate IV's and plasma after the stages if there is no forced champerone.... If they have over 50% at the post stage control they can say that they are extremely dehyrated. This happens all the time. If your "natural crit" on the opening 2 days from the prologue was 47% its easy to be over 50% with "dehyration." Some of Lances crits posted on his website have been 46 or higher. Their true natural crits might be 39-42%...
The UCI likes to take their blood samples in the morning and factor that but not post stage... And if a rider is "sick" and "dehyrated" the UCI cant do a damn thing about it except let them go I believe...

Go to the UCI website and look at the passport... They dont even take passport crit values at all post stage for a minimum of 2 hours. What a joke! LOL

Can you say IV saline refill and "draining" off into a pop can... LOL

 

[Anonymous]

Well I can respect that opinion... But I do not agree. I think Boardman used epo.

Obree IMO was booted out of Euro pro racing because of not doing epo. His home made bikes helped him a lot though with aero.

to be fair bb you would accuse you own mother of being on epo if she made it to the shops and back in less than ten minutes.. :/ im starting to think the only one in the world not on the stuff is you..

 

[hfer07]

discuss...

http://www.velonews.com/article/93542/uci-doping-chief-says-passport-program-shows-vast-majority

vast majority eh.. That'll upset some of 'em round 'ere

yes, they are!!!!
(from the top 60 down you bet they are):d

 

[BigBoat]

All top 60. Coke bottles, dump off some. LOL

Last place (2007) tests positive Jimmy Casper.

 

[tifosa]

to be fair bb you would accuse you own mother of being on epo if she made it to the shops and back in less than ten minutes..

Too fukking funny! Quote of the year material. Thanks for that!!!!!!!

 

[Juan Pelota]

Questions,

What kind of difference does bike technology make on power watt readings? Any? If Larson is using a modern TT bike versus someone from the 80's is that going to reflect in watts different?


Where are the stats on Greg Lemond's Power watt readings from the 80's?
And over a 30 minute ride? Do you actually have them or you just making stuff up?

 

[BigBoat]

What kind of difference does bike technology make on power watt readings? Any? If Larson is using a modern TT bike versus someone from the 80's is that going to reflect in watts different?

In power? Zilch, their bikes bro, Now in weight some perhaps 3 pounds lighter now. Most guys can put down MORE watts on the road bike (yes 80s road bike too LOL) than in the TT position. So if he could press 486 watts in teh TT position for 31 mins then probably more like 500 watts on the road bike on a climb. The first gen SRMs in the early 90s (late 80s experimental) read accurate.

Where are the stats on Greg Lemond's Power watt readings from the 80's?
And over a 30 minute ride? Do you actually have them or you just making stuff up?

Lemond has said in several interviews he could hold about 400 watts for 30 mins... Or a little under. He said his FTP was 390. (all out 1-hour power). He used first gens SRMs from 88-94. Also, just look at his Alp D;Huez times, about 42:08 was his best ever time... ... Yes in 1991 the first epo Tour Indurain rode like 39...bla ha ha and he weighed by the way 175 pounds.