Vaughters confirms past doping by Danielson, others at Garmin

[luckyboy]

Why does Fat Pat suddenly trust the word of an admitted doper who had kept quiet/lied for years enough to comment about taking action against the riders he talked about?
Poor Floyd/Tyler/Jorg/Berhard/Jesus eh

 

[Mrs John Murphy]

Agreed on all accounts. Although that makes you wonder - JV stated a confession to WADA was a requisite for an ex-doper to join his team. Was that already in place when Slipstream started? If so, why weren't these fellows suspended in 2007-2008, long before the federal investigation?

We never did get an answer to that question.

 

[Zinoviev Letter]

I expect that to happen - but only after the cases against Bruyneel etc are resolved. They will probably get a reduced sanction of a year, (not 6 months) as per the code.

Is there not a distinct probability that the statute of limitations will stop most of these dudes from copping bans, reduced or otherwise?

 

[zigmeister]

Is there not a distinct probability that the statute of limitations will stop most of these dudes from copping bans, reduced or otherwise?

Did I read incorrectly by JV that he made a reference to 2005 and previous years for TD and doping? Definitely before Garmin.

What did he win that year? Nothing? And previous doping I also thought was referred to before those years for the other guys as well.

So yes, statute of limitations might apply here and not mean much. This applies for Hincapie, if it comes out he had done it also, Levi and the likes.

Seems like it is part of the "cleansing process" and attempt at getting the sport cleaner by bringing this stuff out.

Convenient how everybody does it after the time has run out by the governing body to do anything about it typically (limitations), or they are out of the sport and don't rely on the direct performance income any longer. They might be involved in other ways, but not so high profile sometimes.

I think this is what is unique about JV. He is trying to bring this out and deal with it to hopefully bring a positive example about while still actively involved in the sport. As long as he has team ownership/financial backing. Could be a good thing. That is obviously playing out as we type.

 

[goggalor]

And by the way, those Garmin riders should definitely serve some sort of suspension, as per the rules.

Agree. Reduced bans, sure, but it should still be at least a season.

 

[Don't be late Pedro]

The Union Cycliste Internationale appears to have pulled an about-face regarding its interest in American riders Christian Vande Velde, Dave Zabriskie and Tom Danielson after their manager, Jonathan Vaughters, outed them as having used performance-enhancing drugs years ago.

More...

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Agreed on all accounts. Although that makes you wonder - JV stated a confession to WADA was a requisite for an ex-doper to join his team. Was that already in place when Slipstream started? If so, why weren't these fellows suspended in 2007-2008, long before the federal investigation?

Not sure if it was a requirement to talk back when they started.
But - remember WADA do not sanction people - they would have been interested in the how's and how to make testing better, rather than the who's and when's.

Is there not a distinct probability that the statute of limitations will stop most of these dudes from copping bans, reduced or otherwise?

SOL is 8 years - as the investigation started in 2010 then most would still fall within that timeframe.
So, I expect a sanction for all when they finish with Bruyneel et al. But many will probably just retire.

 

[the big ring]

4th hand now...

http://stevetilford.com/?p=21510#comment-9785

Disclaimer, this story is third hand but it rung true at the time because it was told to me by people on the inside without motivation to fabricate. In 2008, I was having lunch with another domestic rider. At that time Slipstream was a mostly domestic team and my old training partner had several friends on the team (I had recently quit racing).

The story goes like this. My training partner’s friend gives him the play by play of Slipstream’s training camp. The highlight that stood out was Tommy D. He was was just flying at camp, beating guys by minutes up the climbs. He stood out like a sore thumb. The story goes that one night at dinner, JV says that someone on the team has tested positive (on an internal control). That positive rider knows who he is, that everyone knows who he is. That rider has two options, clean up right now or quit. Nobody knew whether or not Tommy D had actually tested positive or if JV was just scaring him into sobriety.

2008 was not exactly a repeat of 2006 when Tommy D proclaimed that he rode 7.0 watts/kg up the climbs at the Vuelta and was stronger than Vino. But then again 2007 wasn’t a standout year either, and that was a year before he got to Slipstream.

If the training camp story is true, it doesn’t seem like JV identified a diamond in the rough. He took on a doper that continued to dope when he was at Slipstream until he was scared into riding clean. Good for Slipstream and JV for running a clean team but it is a different story than JV is telling about how Danielson joined Slipstream as a clean rider.

2008 is when JV implemented his internal ABP, so it's plausible.

This at the end of a story by Steve Tilford who turned on the TV to see Danielson dropping everyone... in 2012

I was watching the big screen at the Pro Challenge in Aspen a couple weeks ago, when Danielson was dropping everyone up over Independence Pass and I was depressed.

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

I have never had any confidence in the cleanliness of ANY Garmin rider.

This is all bullsh!t anyway. So many former dopers as directeurs sportifs and now we're suddenly supposed to believe that they're running "clean" teams. Whatever.

None of these guys have broken omerta. Ultimately, none care about the sport more than they care about saving their own hides. Not that I blame them, but f*ck them when they say they're interested in cycling's future.

If you were interested in cycling's future, you wouldn't have sh!t on its past.

 

[webvan]

That story sounds plausible and in keeping with JV's tactics. That TD dude certainly doesn't look like he's the brightest bulb in the room...

 

[zigmeister]

I have never had any confidence in the cleanliness of ANY Garmin rider.

This is all bullsh!t anyway. So many former dopers as directeurs sportifs and now we're suddenly supposed to believe that they're running "clean" teams. Whatever.

None of these guys have broken omerta. Ultimately, none care about the sport more than they care about saving their own hides. Not that I blame them, but f*ck them when they say they're interested in cycling's future.

If you were interested in cycling's future, you wouldn't have sh!t on its past.

Yes, surely Farrar is doping his way to 120th place in every race and 2 victories all year.

Even the passport program the past few years have had his numbers at the bottom of suspicion.

 

[ElChingon]

Yes, surely Farrar is doping his way to 120th place in every race and one single victory all year.

Even the passport program the past few years have had his numbers at the bottom of suspicion.

You mean like when Hamilton was killing it then had a bad transfusion and then didn't perform well? After all of Farrar's 2nd placings now he's nowhere near that level, either he stopped or is on the wrong program.

 

[Roland Rat]

You mean like when Hamilton was killing it then had a bad transfusion and then didn't perform well? After all of Farrar's 2nd placings now he's nowhere near that level, either he stopped or is on the wrong program.

You obviously didn't see Vaughters' recent comment about Farrar having a tough time after his best mate died last year.

Or I suppose the evil genius that is Vaughters was using the death as an excuse for Farrar getting his "program" incorrect this year?

 

[hrotha]

You obviously didn't see Vaughters' recent comment about Farrar having a tough time after his best mate died last year.

Or I suppose the evil genius that is Vaughters was using the death as an excuse for Farrar getting his "program" incorrect this year?

On top of that, Farrar didn't train his sprint much this year. He wanted to give the classics a go, but it didn't work, so it's no surprise his results have been poor all season.

 

[roundabout]

Well, I for one was a bit surprised at the difference between the Cofidis Farrar and the (initial) Garmin Farrar.

But I am easily surprised.

 

[131313]

I have never had any confidence in the cleanliness of ANY Garmin rider.

This is all bullsh!t anyway. So many former dopers as directeurs sportifs and now we're suddenly supposed to believe that they're running "clean" teams. Whatever.

None of these guys have broken omerta. Ultimately, none care about the sport more than they care about saving their own hides. Not that I blame them, but f*ck them when they say they're interested in cycling's future.

If you were interested in cycling's future, you wouldn't have sh!t on its past.

I think in Vaughters' case you're off-base. I don't you can take every single rider who took drugs and put them in some monolithic group where they all think and act the same. People just aren't like that. I'm hardly a JV apologist but take a look at his career path vs. someone like Riis: he quit the sport and left a big contract behind to go ride for 20K a year doing domestic races on a tiny team. After that, he started was was basically a devo team with teenage Cat 1's, a team with a budget less than many amateur teams. Meanwhile, Riis doped himself to a TDF win and immediately started a high-profile team, doping riders up to win Grand Tours.

Maybe this was all part of some grand marketing scheme to plant the seeds of a "clean team", but that just seems unlikely to me. The question is "what happened?" It seems as the pressure to perform increased, things changed on the team. I don't think that means that a big institutional doping program started (because firmly believe that's not the case), but they took on high-profile guys with checkered pasts in an attempt to "offer them opportunity to ride clean", but who knows if they're living up to that promise?

The dinner story r.e. TD sounds totally believable, because it's the sort of "let me handle this" way JV has about him. Bottom line, I think the dude's intentions really are good, but he's way too impressed with his own judgement.

 

[Elagabalus]

I think in Vaughters' case you're off-base. I don't you can take every single rider who took drugs and put them in some monolithic group where they all think and act the same. People just aren't like that. I'm hardly a JV apologist but take a look at his career path vs. someone like Riis: he quit the sport and left a big contract behind to go ride for 20K a year doing domestic races on a tiny team. After that, he started was was basically a devo team with teenage Cat 1's, a team with a budget less than many amateur teams. Meanwhile, Riis doped himself to a TDF win and immediately started a high-profile team, doping riders up to win Grand Tours.

Maybe this was all part of some grand marketing scheme to plant the seeds of a "clean team", but that just seems unlikely to me. The question is "what happened?" It seems as the pressure to perform increased, things changed on the team. I don't think that means that a big institutional doping program started (because firmly believe that's not the case), but they took on high-profile guys with checkered pasts in an attempt to "offer them opportunity to ride clean", but who knows if they're living up to that promise?

The dinner story r.e. TD sounds totally believable, because it's the sort of "let me handle this" way JV has about him. Bottom line, I think the dude's intentions really are good, but he's way too impressed with his own judgement.

My view as well.

 

[mastersracer]

Vaughters hired Allen Lim after Lim helped Landis with his doping program in 2006. Is Vaughters in the business of not only reforming past doped riders but also sports physiologists? Lim moved on to Radio Shack and worked closely with LA, and we know how that turned out.

At best, hiring Lim was a terrible lapse of judgment. At worst, it suggests Vaughters is like Riis - using the banner of clean cycling as a cover. Is Lim really in demand because he's handy with a masticating juicer or because he knows some good recipes with the real juice?

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Vaughters hired Allen Lim after Lim helped Landis with his doping program in 2006. Is Vaughters in the business of not only reforming past doped riders but also sports physiologists? Lim moved on to Radio Shack and worked closely with LA, and we know how that turned out.

At best, hiring Lim was a terrible lapse of judgment. At worst, it suggests Vaughters is like Riis - using the banner of clean cycling as a cover. Is Lim really in demand because he's handy with a masticating juicer or because he knows some good recipes with the real juice?

When you say "helped Landis with his doping program...", the answer of Lims role is within Landis statements. Lim was a courier - not a doping Doc in the Ferrari/LdM way.

 

[mastersracer]

When you say "helped Landis with his doping program...", the answer of Lims role is within Landis statements. Lim was a courier - not a doping Doc in the Ferrari/LdM way.

he was willing to engage in a secret doping program, he lied publicly about his knowledge of Landis' doping, he helped Landis and Levi with their transfusions, etc. Public statements at Garmin included Lim helping develop and run their internally-funded blood-monitoring program. No appearance of impropriety in that?

 

[Dr. Maserati]

he was willing to engage in a secret doping program, he lied publicly about his knowledge of Landis' doping, he helped Landis and Levi with their transfusions, etc. Public statements at Garmin included Lim helping develop and run their internally-funded blood-monitoring program. No appearance of impropriety in that?

Hold on.
I never said or even suggested there is no "impropriety in that".
But again you say he "helped" Levi & Landis with their transfusions - he delivered them, that's exactly what Landis said.

 

[Granville57]

...the answer of Lims role is within Landis statements.

Just to clarify the above:

Lim, a Ph.D. in exercise physiology who joined Team RadioShack for the 2010 season, has consistently denied the allegations by Landis, who also accused seven-time Tour winner Armstrong of doping.

"Floyd's admission speaks for itself," he told Ford last May. "The only thing I know with certainty is that I could not work with an athlete whom I knew to be using performance-enhancing drugs. I've worked very hard to make this a better sport."

Landis told Ford a different account last spring, saying that he paid Lim $80,000 during the 2005 season, chiefly for helping with the logistics of transporting bags of Landis' own blood to be transfused. The method, known as blood doping, increases an endurance athlete's ability to process oxygen.

Lim vehemently denied the arrangement and said Landis paid him a fraction of that amount for training advice only.

"The thing is, he really didn't know anything about the doping, and by that time, I had learned it all," Landis told Ford during a lengthy interview last May, his first public admission that he had lied for the previous four years about doping during his career.

"I just needed somebody around that was smart and educated and I could trust, with dealing with logistics. I originally hired him to be an assistant and be around when I was training and drive a car behind me. ... Eventually he did help me with the other stuff. But it was more my own knowledge that I used to do that, it wasn't any advice I got from him. He just happened to help because it was there."

http://sports.espn.go.com/los-angeles/news/story?id=5627457

 

[the big ring]

I think in Vaughters' case you're off-base. I don't you can take every single rider who took drugs and put them in some monolithic group where they all think and act the same. People just aren't like that. I'm hardly a JV apologist but take a look at his career path vs. someone like Riis: he quit the sport and left a big contract behind to go ride for 20K a year doing domestic races on a tiny team. After that, he started was was basically a devo team with teenage Cat 1's, a team with a budget less than many amateur teams. Meanwhile, Riis doped himself to a TDF win and immediately started a high-profile team, doping riders up to win Grand Tours.

Can you guesstimate at all how much money JV would have tucked away as a pro when he retired? Riding for $20k sounds like your mortgage would be in trouble, not to mention eating and paying the utilities.

Is Riis personally making any money with his team?

I am wondering how much these team owners actually make, and how much of the desire to continue is driven from wanting to continue winning / being in the "scene" vs making money.

Particularly if they are already established, houses here and there, nice car and no real need to earn a buck.

 

[Benotti69]

Can you guesstimate at all how much money JV would have tucked away as a pro when he retired? Riding for $20k sounds like your mortgage would be in trouble, not to mention eating and paying the utilities.

Is Riis personally making any money with his team?

I am wondering how much these team owners actually make, and how much of the desire to continue is driven from wanting to continue winning / being in the "scene" vs making money.

Particularly if they are already established, houses here and there, nice car and no real need to earn a buck.

JV's father is a lawyer, so i doubt JV would've been stuck for a loan at that time should he have needed it.

But the team owners dont race for the fun, they race for money.

I guess Riis pays himself pretty damn well.

JV I guess again might not be the highest paid but it aint peanuts.