Vaughters confirms past doping by Danielson, others at Garmin

[ElChingon]

Do you know what the fun part of your post is? Last week we had a nice little topic called 'How dodgy is Inigo San Millan?'. You can go and look it up. The fun part of it was when JV showed up with a serious anger management problem rant - now deleted, helais - concerning the guilty by association we - in his eyes - made of the carreerpath of ISM.

Now whe 'learn' by the same JV1973 the guilty by association on the riders he named - Danielson et all - was the truth. So, we can make a guilty by association with riders but not with Team Docs?

Funny stuff that pro cycling omerta.

Funny stuff is at this point everyone is naming names and that's it! No bans? Nothing? WT...?

 

[COMO CYCO]

Tilford on Danielson: The Highlights

I am not able to catch what is on Steve's site at my office. For some unknown reason "Personal Sites" are blocked.

What does he say?

"I’m going to rip Tom Danielson. Here’s my personal observations and history of Tom Danielson, with a few jabs at Jonathan during the rant, probably.

Ever since I heard the guys name, Tom Danielson, it has been associated with doping. From square one. The first time I heard anything about the guy, without hearing his name even, was when I received an email from Ned from something like 12 years ago. (I’ve been looking for the email, but it must be on a different computer or hard drive somewhere.)

...when I saw that he won the 12 mile TT in the Estes Park Stage race by over 5 minutes over 2nd, I put him on the, for sure, cheater, cheater pumpkin eater team.

At the time, I was surprised that Tom Schuler hired him to ride for Saturn. Danielson proceeded to **** up race after race I competed in...I remember being in a elevator after the time trial in Nature Valley with Bill Stolte and Danielson gets in. I ask him how it went for him and he says something like he rode 9:10 and won. The race was 6.25 miles I think. I said something back like, “Tom, it was 10km, that would be over a 40 mph average.” He said “Yeh, I rode 9:10.” Bill and I just looked at each other and didn’t say another word. The guy was a tool.

I was watching the big screen at the Pro Challenge in Aspen a couple weeks ago, when Danielson was dropping everyone up over Independence Pass and I was depressed. I obviously have never had any respect for the guy. I’ve always “known” he took drugs to race bikes.

....Tom wants to move back to Durango from Boulder. Evidently, he has a love for Maui too. I’m hoping most of the people in Durango that support cycling, think much of the same way I do. Maybe the Durango Herald reporter will feel as strongly as I do, and rip Tom a new *******. Maybe Tom will realize that he has done enough damage to the sport, the reputation of Fort Lewis College, and decide to move to his little place in Maui instead."

 

[spetsa]

At least half of the guys on that list were juiced to the gills. Olson got railroaded out of the sport for complaining about doped teammates and Sebel just walked away. I think Bergman was the only guy on there to actually serve a ban, but I could be wrong on that one.

As far as Danielson, he got really fast when he hired a coach who thought buying blood spinners was a good idea. Plus, he road on Saturn and was teammates with Horner, Klasna and Nathan O'Neil, so he certainly didn't have to go to Disco to learn how to dope.

I think Tilford's analysis is right on.

Yeah, when he hired Crawford is when he got fast. BTW, Crawford now hates LA. He went on a drunken twitter rant, which he deleted but I was lucky enough to see. It was pretty awesome. But it's time for him to step up himself, because he's not innocent in all of this mess.

If you look at team Saturn's roster over the years it's comical how many dope-fueled riders have gone through there; Levi, Sbeih, Klasna, Horner, O'Neil, Danielson...the list goes on..and on...and on.....

So, maybe Tyler had to go to Bruyneel to learn how to dope, but many of the guys were well-versed in doping when they got there. Rene Wenzel was running the team for chrissakes.. So the one question I have for Tilford is why does he think it's surprising they'd take on a doped Danielson?

+1
People who were not involved in US domestic racing 10 years ago, have no clue how many shady characters there were in management, let alone racing. Too many non-believable performances in those days. Remember the 2004 Joe Martin SR uphill TT, when Bergman crushed it so fast, even the officials thought there must have been a timing error?

 

[zigmeister]

"I’m going to rip Tom Danielson. Here’s my personal observations and history of Tom Danielson, with a few jabs at Jonathan during the rant, probably.

Ever since I heard the guys name, Tom Danielson, it has been associated with doping. From square one. The first time I heard anything about the guy, without hearing his name even, was when I received an email from Ned from something like 12 years ago. (I’ve been looking for the email, but it must be on a different computer or hard drive somewhere.)

...when I saw that he won the 12 mile TT in the Estes Park Stage race by over 5 minutes over 2nd, I put him on the, for sure, cheater, cheater pumpkin eater team.

At the time, I was surprised that Tom Schuler hired him to ride for Saturn. Danielson proceeded to **** up race after race I competed in...I remember being in a elevator after the time trial in Nature Valley with Bill Stolte and Danielson gets in. I ask him how it went for him and he says something like he rode 9:10 and won. The race was 6.25 miles I think. I said something back like, “Tom, it was 10km, that would be over a 40 mph average.” He said “Yeh, I rode 9:10.” Bill and I just looked at each other and didn’t say another word. The guy was a tool.

I was watching the big screen at the Pro Challenge in Aspen a couple weeks ago, when Danielson was dropping everyone up over Independence Pass and I was depressed. I obviously have never had any respect for the guy. I’ve always “known” he took drugs to race bikes.

....Tom wants to move back to Durango from Boulder. Evidently, he has a love for Maui too. I’m hoping most of the people in Durango that support cycling, think much of the same way I do. Maybe the Durango Herald reporter will feel as strongly as I do, and rip Tom a new *******. Maybe Tom will realize that he has done enough damage to the sport, the reputation of Fort Lewis College, and decide to move to his little place in Maui instead."

Do we have a profile of the course he is referring to? A great deal of that has 8% grade I believe, which you could go 55mph+ in downhill sections. But maybe he is referring to another Nature Valley TT?

 

[mwbyrd]

And whilst Danielson averaged 40MPH for the timetrial, he was only 10-30 seconds in front of 2nd to 10th.

Hang on. 40mph.

But still, that's not that much better than the other guys. 5% more power for 2nd place up to 17% more power for 10th place to do the same time as Danielson.

38% more power for the author, Steve Tilford, to do the same time as Danielson. Ouch.

http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/road.php?id=road/2003/jun03/naturevalley03/naturevalley032

1 Tom Danielson (USA) Saturn Cycling Team 9.08?
2 Viktor Rapinski (Blr) Saturn Cycling Team 0.10
3 John Lieswyn (USA) 7-Up/Maxxis 0.13
4 Adam Bergman (USA) Jelly Belly 0.20
5 Mark Mcmormack (USA) Saturn Cycling Team 0.21
6 Trent Klasna (USA) Saturn Cycling Team
7 Peter Knudsen (USA) Schroeder Iron 0.27
8 Aaron Olson (USA) Schroeder Iron
9 Dylan Sebel (USA) Broadmark Capital 0.29
10 Henk Vogels (Aus) Navigators 0.30

And Check out this comment at the bottom of the article:

Dylan // Sep 6, 2012 at 1:14 pm

Mr. Tilford writes in today’s post: “Tom Danielson, not smart enough to know how to tone it down and not draw attention to himself, winning the Estes Park Stage Race TT, which was 12 miles, by over 5 minutes over 2nd.”

Mr. Tilford writes in yesterday’s post: “I’d won the Nationals in ’83 and ’84 and did not race them again for 7 more years. The reason was I wasn’t getting enough feeling of personal accomplishment anymore…. And I was winning the races by huge margins.”

Check. Winning by huge margins = doping. Everyone got that? It’s just that simple….


Things that make you go hhhmmm.......

 

[MacRoadie]

And yet the comments section is filled with people saying Tommy D. was killing them at MTB races when he was sixteen. That does not quite match up with Tilford's timeline of Danielson's improvement.

Well, first off I'll trust Steve's palmares over the majority of unknown posters in the comments section.

Second, he relates the story of the kid who couldn't hang with the group that he heard about from Ned Overend. I'll also put a little stock in Ned's perspective over the comments section too:

Anyway, the email said something like what I thought about some kid from Fort Lewis, that the previous fall couldn’t even come close to riding with the group up the passes, on the local weekly training rides and then comes back the next spring, from training in Arizona, (I think) and he’s dropping everyone. I said maybe it didn’t have to be doping and some guys are natural climbers, since I had never personally witnessed or seen the guy. I didn’t realize the extent of the change.

Paul from the comments section? Not so much...

 

[Kender]

Has Vaughter's confirmed anything in regards to Weltz?

just this from twitter

Jonathan Vaughters @Vaughters 21h
Jeezus... Now it seems I need to have a talk with Johnny Weltz about just letting this crap end and to stop BSing people.. #thedaygetslonger
View details ·

Rasmus Staghøj @Staghoj 21h
@Vaughters hi Jonathan. I did the interview with weltz today. What do you mean with this tweet about talking to weltz?

Jonathan Vaughters
@Vaughters
@Staghoj While I don't know for certain, my instinct is that he is not being very transparent with you.

 

[MacRoadie]

Check. Winning by huge margins = doping. Everyone got that? It’s just that simple….


Things that make you go hhhmmm.......

They make you go hhhmmm and seem simple...if you're a simpleton.

Exactly what type of doping do you suggest was available in that 1983-1984 time frame?

The whole quote from Steve's blog:

The reason was, I wasn’t getting enough feeling of personal accomplishment anymore for training for an extra couple months for one race. And I was winning the races by huge margins. I was racing Professionally on the road and when the Tour of the Americas and bigger events started occurring early in February-March, cross just didn’t seem as important.

If you'e going to quote a post from a blog comment section, at least try to pick one that wasn't written by an idiot.

 

[BroDeal]

Well, first off I'll trust Steve's palmares over the majority of unknown posters in the comments section.

Second, he relates the story of the kid who couldn't hang with the group that he heard bout from Ned Overend. I'll alo put a little stock in Ned's perspective over the comments section too:

Paul from the comments section? Not so much...

There are multiple posts that say that TD was killing it as a teenage MTBer. It does not match Tilford's zero talent and Vaughters must be lying about TD's natural aerobic capacity. He also seems to think a 3rd in collegiate nationals means that TD is a donkey.

The bottom line is this. TD was able to top ten the Vuelta while on Disco's program. He is able to top ten the Tour now. Unless you think that TD is currently doping then he probably has a fair bit of talent, like a lot.

While he probably hopped on the dope express early, he does not really have a huge number of wins. The amount of bread he stole from people's tables is pretty small compared to a rider like Leipheimer. How many riders in the top ten of his races were also jacked?

 

[the big ring]

I'm a bit confused about where benson is coming from on that one - is he referring to Laura or to JV? Meh - both could be righteously accused of being verbally overenthusiastic. Laura's tweets definitely look like "intent to cause bodily harm".

It's Weislo, not benson. Twitter is stupid and confusing when taken out of context, but when it says

@dnlbenson - it indicates the recipient, ie Weislo is the sender.

Speaking of throwing stuff out there, tho. Can we speculate on the identity of another forum poster? Certain names and behaviors seem very coincidental.

A brilliant theory. I am jealous. Particularly given Weislo's "stinging" article and the similarity in name with Mr Lyn and Mr Lyn's apparent lack of emotion in any post, until RR copied some of her links and then she went off the deep end for lack of "Source" attribution - a journalist's bread & butter. Also explains how they managed to be so confident and relatively well-written from the get go. No introduction, just BANG writing with authority.

I wonder if Weislo is doing a Tan under a pseudonym, in an attempt to generate more polemic?

The Vaughters outing of Tommy D was attributed to "Cyclingnews"; very curious.

Some people get off on creating chaos and damage tho. I am reminded of one poster here that I sent a pm to, questioning some things the poster said. I thought they were quite, hmmm, strange. He admitted he often posted outrageous stuff just to watch the **** fly. I can't live like that, but some folks do.

I cannot find the news article released in Aus that discussed this, but it was interesting to consider people deliberately post thing to bait others for a reaction. I guess it gives them a sense of power.

 

[MacRoadie]

There are multiple posts that say that TD was killing it as a teenage MTBer. It does not match Tilford's zero talent and Vaughters must be lying about TD's natural aerobic capacity. He also seems to think a 3rd in collegiate nationals means that TD is a donkey.

Read it again. He said the collegiate nationals success occurred AFTER the time spent in Arizona, and a year after Overend said TD couldn't hang with the group.

 

[the big ring]

I think Tilford's analysis is right on.

I agree. I wrote the post and thought the time gaps were not that large, but then when I looked at the speed gaps, and the requisite power improvements those guys would have needed to match TD, it became very clear he was a little more than a cut above everyone else in that particular stage.

I didn't go back and change my words, so it may come across as dismissive of Tilford's claims, but that's unintentional.

 

[the big ring]

JV's assertion that he looks for talented riders that can perform as the sport gets cleaner makes a lot more sense, especially when it is applied to a mentally weak but talented rider who could make big improvements if he got his head in the right place.

I am not sure if I will be able to find the article online. But I do remember reading JV saying in a magazine many years ago that TD's problem was in races > 150km, that he didn't pace himself properly or something.

It would be interesting to find that article and compare to what he is saying now. See how well the 2 theories on fixing the flat tyre fit.

 

[BroDeal]

Read it again. He said the collegiate nationals success occurred AFTER the time spent in Arizona, and a year after Overend said TD couldn't hang with the group.

The way I read it is that he is dissing TD for _only_ placing third at collegiate MTB nationals then winning it the next two years when on the "program." The relevant sentence is:

"So here’s a guy that has so/so results. He can’t win the Collegiate MTB Nationals, but then wins it twice after getting on the program."

He then goes on to use TD inability to make Disco's Tour team as evidence that even on the juice he sucked.

A lot of this can be explained by a juiced rider who has crappy racing skills and poor recovery or susceptibility to getting sick. I find JV's explanation more rational than Tilford's rant.

 

[the big ring]

If you'e going to quote a post from a blog comment section, at least try to pick one that wasn't written by an idiot.

- BOOM -

Headshot.

Nicely done.

 

[montel]

There are multiple posts that say that TD was killing it as a teenage MTBer. It does not match Tilford's zero talent and Vaughters must be lying about TD's natural aerobic capacity. He also seems to think a 3rd in collegiate nationals means that TD is a donkey.

The bottom line is this. TD was able to top ten the Vuelta while on Disco's program. He is able to top ten the Tour now. Unless you think that TD is currently doping then he probably has a fair bit of talent, like a lot.

While he probably hopped on the dope express early, he does not really have a huge number of wins. The amount of bread he stole from people's tables is pretty small compared to a rider like Leipheimer. How many riders in the top ten of his races were also jacked?

IF a rider was doping as early as his junior years, collegiate years, or even as a "domestic" pro - and is now riding clean many years later - what permanent benefit(s) did that early doping provide him with? Some of it while we has developing and growing? I am sure that someone who doped for years doesn't gain huge benefits that would never go away - especially compared to someone who never doped but had similar physical traits.

 

[Epicycle]

Danielson wasn't nearly as good when he rode for Feretti, which makes me wonder if that was a T-Mobile type deal...the newcomers, especially foreigners, didn't get access to the same doping program, if any, as the established team members.

 

[roundabout]

I am not sure if I will be able to find the article online. But I do remember reading JV saying in a magazine many years ago that TD's problem was in races > 150km, that he didn't pace himself properly or something.

It would be interesting to find that article and compare to what he is saying now. See how well the 2 theories on fixing the flat tyre fit.

No, his problem was that he is one quarter eskimo.

 

[Raul Ramaya]

IF a rider was doping as early as his junior years, collegiate years, or even as a "domestic" pro - and is now riding clean many years later - what permanent benefit(s) did that early doping provide him with? Some of it while we has developing and growing? ts.

This. Anyone have an answer? Has this ever been studied?

 

[Benotti69]

This. Anyone have an answer? Has this ever been studied?

I am not sure this can be proven true. Lots dope as Juniors, Filipo Simoni, Lances friend was doping as a Junior, but after he stopped doping he dropped away from cycling.

It didn't work for Armstrong who was doping win triathlons as a teenager. He finished miserably in 25th after all those years doping.

It might benefit someone if they doped to train to a high level, but if that is artificial then it cant be achieved again without the same.

I think our bodies react like batteries. They dont last. You can help them but ultimately they run down.

 

[Raul Ramaya]

There are multiple posts that say that TD was killing it as a teenage MTBer. It does not match Tilford's zero talent and Vaughters must be lying about TD's natural aerobic capacity. He also seems to think a 3rd in collegiate nationals means that TD is a donkey.

The bottom line is this. TD was able to top ten the Vuelta while on Disco's program. He is able to top ten the Tour now. Unless you think that TD is currently doping then he probably has a fair bit of talent, like a lot.

While he probably hopped on the dope express early, he does not really have a huge number of wins. The amount of bread he stole from people's tables is pretty small compared to a rider like Leipheimer. How many riders in the top ten of his races were also jacked?

Yeah but keep in mind that most of the anger from Tilford is directed to TD's doping PRIOR to heading overseas. Tilford has always been ambivelent (understanding) of the pressure to dope once you were in Europe. But by then presumably you've proved you have the chops. In TD's case the accusation is he doped thereby skipping paying his dues on the conti circuit.

 

[Deagol]

Danielson wasn't nearly as good when he rode for Feretti, which makes me wonder if that was a T-Mobile type deal...the newcomers, especially foreigners, didn't get access to the same doping program, if any, as the established team members.

TD broke the record on Mt Evans Hillclimb when he rode for Fassa Bortolo. He has raced it a few times since then, once, I believe while on Discovery and maybe twice since with Garmin (or somthing like that). His Fassa Bortolo time is still the record. That at least gives some indication that he was good at extreame altitude hillclimbing in his early years and has slowed down a tad since then. Of course, the times are reasonably close together, but...

 

[MacRoadie]

The way I read it is that he is dissing TD for _only_ placing third at collegiate MTB nationals then winning it the next two years when on the "program." The relevant sentence is:

"So here’s a guy that has so/so results. He can’t win the Collegiate MTB Nationals, but then wins it twice after getting on the program."

He then goes on to use TD inability to make Disco's Tour team as evidence that even on the juice he sucked.

A lot of this can be explained by a juiced rider who has crappy racing skills and poor recovery or susceptibility to getting sick. I find JV's explanation more rational than Tilford's rant.

He bounces around a lot in those two paragraphs. When you read it more than once, you end up with several different timelines. I went back and am a little confused myself now.

 

[MacRoadie]

No, his problem was that he is one quarter eskimo.

Flat sled runner?

 

[BroDeal]

Yeah but keep in mind that most of the anger from Tilford is directed to TD's doping PRIOR to heading overseas. Tilford has always been ambivelent (understanding) of the pressure to dope once you were in Europe. But by then presumably you've proved you have the chops. In TD's case the accusation is he doped thereby skipping paying his dues on the conti circuit.

It is unrealistic. Riders in the early 90s could race five years domestically, paying their "dues," then make the move to Europe and take up doping. By the time Tommy D. got in the game, the drugs were all over the U.S. scene.

On the other hand, TD probably paid a price for not paying his dues. He would have been a much better racer if he had had to duke it out in close competition for several years.