Vaughters on Astana, Armstrong in 2009 TdF (not good)

Jul 2, 2009
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there is nothing wrong with punching back. I quite liked the quote " ! "


Vaughters does not have a thumb pressing on his forehead. keep it coming


let the shyt storm fly from all corners of the protour clubhouse
 
Dec 28, 2009
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yes, vaughters is right there, but nice response by Lance.

Ok lance wasn't happy with it for sure, but he didn't say stupid things as always.
 
Jun 12, 2009
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Vaughters is the biggest @%$ clown out there. If Astana were really soft pedaling so Lance would not look bad, then why didn't Wiggo get better then 4th place? The rest of the field must have really sucked then.
 
Jul 2, 2009
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**Uru** said:
Vaughters is the biggest @%$ clown out there. If Astana were really soft pedaling so Lance would not look bad, then why didn't Wiggo get better then 4th place? The rest of the field must have really sucked then.

gee, why don't you tell us how you feel

It really is ok for these guys to go knocking eachother around.

Vaughters did live in those circles:
http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=features/2005/vaughters_1999


let's go by punch buggy' rules


Standard Game

Now that we have established what a Punch Buggy is - what do you do when you see one?

You say "Punch Buggy" while simultaneously belting the person you're with on the shoulder. Not hard. Just enough to make contact felt. It is not necessary to add "no punch back" when calling a Punch Buggy. Punch-backs are verboten (not allowed) and will cost you one point for each punch thrown - not to mention show you up as a spoilsport and may get you grounded.


Scoring

One point is awarded to the first person who calls it for each Punch Buggy seen. If you wrongly identify a car as a Punch Buggy and call it, one point is deducted from you score. If you have already hit the person with whom you're playing and then the misidentification is confirmed the person wrongly Punch Buggied may at his discretion double punch the offender immediately or he may save the mis-punch until the next time you have a legitimate Punch Buggy and he can 'take the hit away from you.' To do that the victim of the misidentification and hit says "Save it for later." The next time you spot a legitimate Punch Buggy you can still call it however you are banned from following through with a hit. If you forget and hit anyway you forfeit the game and the other guy wins.

Time Outs

You have the option of being a party pooper and calling a time out. This will suspend a game in progress, which may be resumed at a later time. However you may NOT call "Time in - Punch Buggy - Time out!" all in one sentence just as you see a punch buggy. This will result in a fine of twenty-five (25) points for the first infraction and your parents get to choose how much the fine goes up for each additional infraction. You may also be risking great bodily harm depending on with whom you're playing...

Any and all Volkswagen Dealerships are automatically on time out as are all of the cars on the lot. When a Punch Buggy drives off the lot, as they all must sooner or later, it has exited the 'zone of disallowance' and is fair game. Punch Buggies on non-Volkswagen car lots are not under this restriction. So if there's a used car lot down the street with three used New Beetles on the lot - go for it! This is called the Punch Buggy Prime Directive. Violating this rule will get you in deep do-do.

Note: Punch Buggies being moved from a car-carrier parked in the street in front of a Volkswagen dealership to the lot or vice-versa may or may not be fair game. This remains tied up in the rules comity. A decision is expected any day now...


The "NON-CONTACT" version of Punch Buggy

It is possible to play a non-contact version of Punch Buggy. The rules are exactly the same as for the conventional game with the exception that you don't get to hit the person you're playing with. This can be advisable if there are only two of you playing and the other person is driving. Getting hit while you're driving could be bad. Another time when you may choose to play the non-contact version would be on a school field trip where the authorities (teachers, bus monitors, or whatever) may not be Punch Buggy friendly. Use your best judgment here. I will not be held liable for you getting grounded on the bus instead of seeing the National Air and Space Museum or where ever else you may be going because the bus monitor thought you were getting too rowdy. OK?


The Punch Buggy in the Family

The ‘owner’ of a Punch Buggy and members of the owner’s household may not be punched for a Punch Buggy that is a member of their family.* Likewise, others cannot be punched by the ‘owner’ or any member of the owner’s household for the family Punch Buggy. However, anyone who is not a member of the Punch Buggies immediate family are allowed to punch each other, provided all of the other rules of the game are being adhered to. So your annoying cousins from back east are allowed to punch each other for your Punch Buggy, but they can’t punch you and you can’t punch them (no matter how much you may want to…) if the Punch Buggy in question is a member of your household.

* You don’t really “own” a Punch Buggy. You adopt them and they become members of the family. If you have a Punch Buggy in the family you will understand what I mean…


A Note of Caution

Have fun, don't hit anyone harder than you want to be hit, and don't make too much noise. Dad doesn't like too much noise from the back seat while he's driving! ;-)
 
I think Vaughters was referring to Astana's overall strategy of protecting Armstrong as well as Contador and not letting Contador fly as often as he would have otherwise.

It's not as though everyone who watched the 2009 Tour didn't know this already. By "embarrass", he likely means seeing Lance finish outside of the Top 10.
 
Aug 13, 2009
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JV is correct. Kloden softpeddled for Armstrong in the first 10 days, killing his podium chances.

Clearly others in the sport are not scared of Wonderboy anymore, that must burn him up.
 
May 10, 2009
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Race Radio said:
JV is correct. Kloden softpeddled for Armstrong in the first 10 days, killing his podium chances.

Clearly others in the sport are not scared of Wonderboy anymore, that must burn him up.
It must have drove Kloden mad to have to pace a guy who wasn't going to win, when he himself could have got on the podium. Verbier for me is the biggest example.
 
Aug 6, 2009
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Moose McKnuckles said:
I think Vaughters was referring to Astana's overall strategy of protecting Armstrong as well as Contador and not letting Contador fly as often as he would have otherwise.

It's not as though everyone who watched the 2009 Tour didn't know this already. By "embarrass", he likely means seeing Lance finish outside of the Top 10.
Outside the top 5 perhaps, but not outside the top 10. There was a clear quality difference between Armstrong and Christian Vande Velde who came in number 8. I don't see how why that would have changed just because the pace was harder. I'm not sure that Nibali and Wiggins would have benefited from a harder pace either, though Frank Schleck definitely would have.
 
Mar 18, 2009
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Digger said:
It must have drove Kloden mad to have to pace a guy who wasn't going to win, when he himself could have got on the podium. Verbier for me is the biggest example.
I think it was Bikesnob NYC who said that Kloden is just one Freiburg phone call away from the lip-and-anus station at the Vienna Schnitzel factory--he's happy just to have a job in the sport. He's not the guy to complain about any role he's paid to play.
 
I love it!

JV and LA are not pals, not in the least. I love it that someone is taking stabs at LA in the press, as too often no one ever does. But we all know that LA snipes and b*tches.
 
Feb 1, 2010
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Digger said:
It must have drove Kloden mad to have to pace a guy who wasn't going to win, when he himself could have got on the podium. Verbier for me is the biggest example.
So mad he signed for Shack so he could do it all again :D
 
dougzz99 said:
So mad he signed for Shack so he could do it all again :D
As Wallace pointed out, he's probably just happy to have a job.

And he needs an alpha male, I think. After years of hauling Jan's sweaty *** around, he was finally given leadership at T-Mobile in 2006, but he immediately jumped ship to ride for Vino at Astana.

Now, post Freiburg, he went for the guaranteed salary at Radioshack to (probably) ride for Armstrong and Leipheimer, despite the fact that he has shown such excellent results. After the TTs at last year's Tour, does anyone really think either of these guys is stronger than Kloden anymore?

But whatever the case, Kloden really is the "perfect team mate"--and has been his entire career. Always puts his assigned charge first, even if it holds him back. Ullrich, Vino, and Armstrong have all been weight on his wheel at one point or another.
 
May 10, 2009
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dougzz99 said:
So mad he signed for Shack so he could do it all again :D
Money and a job. Not many teams outside of Shack would sign a rider with such strong links to doping. But JB thinks he is beyond the law. Basso being another example.
 
Jan 25, 2010
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**Uru** said:
Vaughters is the biggest @%$ clown out there. If Astana were really soft pedaling so Lance would not look bad, then why didn't Wiggo get better then 4th place? The rest of the field must have really sucked then.
Because of two things:

1. On the 3rd stage, Lance went against Contador by having his two Astana teammates contribute to the escapade. Plus the Columbia team pals made LA the favor to push the pace hard. Too bad LA couldn't repay Columbia when lord Pharmastrong didn't allow George Hincapie get the yellow jersey a few stages later. LA got 40 seconds from this.

2. The Team Time Trial. Having Contador (Spain TT champion), Leipheimer and Kloden in your TTT was a the advantage. They were the real workhorses. LA got 2.5 minutes from this. After this stage, LA was the closest he'll ever get to the maillot jaune again.

The total time advantage: 3 minutes 10 seconds. Without this, LA would would have finished at most 6th.

By the way, if anyone cut short the chances of Kloden being on the podium, that was Pharmastrong. When Kloden had to tow LA's punk *** up Verbier. That's when Kloden lost. but Pharmastrong et al pointed fingers to Contador.

:D
 
Aug 6, 2009
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Iker_Baqueiro said:
Because of two things:

1. On the 3rd stage, Lance went against Contador by having his two Astana teammates contribute to the escapade. Plus the Columbia team pals made LA the favor to push the pace hard. Too bad LA couldn't repay Columbia when lord Pharmastrong didn't allow George Hincapie get the yellow jersey a few stages later. LA got 40 seconds from this.

2. The Team Time Trial. Having Contador (Spain TT champion), Leipheimer and Kloden in your TTT was a the advantage. They were the real workhorses. LA got 2.5 minutes from this. After this stage, LA was the closest he'll ever get to the maillot jaune again.

The total time advantage: 3 minutes 10 seconds. Without this, LA would would have finished at most 6th.
No, he would have finished 5th, I don't know who you're counting a 2,5 minute advantage to in the TTT, but he got only 58 seconds on Nibali, and less to Wiggins and the Schelcks. He might even have finished better than 5th since he was clearly stronger than Wiggins and possibly stronger than Frank Schleck on Ventoux and might have been able to take time on them if he needed it. There's really no way to tell.
 
Nov 17, 2009
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Iker_Baqueiro said:
Because of two things:

1. On the 3rd stage, Lance went against Contador by having his two Astana teammates contribute to the escapade. Plus the Columbia team pals made LA the favor to push the pace hard. Too bad LA couldn't repay Columbia when lord Pharmastrong didn't allow George Hincapie get the yellow jersey a few stages later. LA got 40 seconds from this.

2. The Team Time Trial. Having Contador (Spain TT champion), Leipheimer and Kloden in your TTT was a the advantage. They were the real workhorses. LA got 2.5 minutes from this. After this stage, LA was the closest he'll ever get to the maillot jaune again.

The total time advantage: 3 minutes 10 seconds. Without this, LA would would have finished at most 6th.

By the way, if anyone cut short the chances of Kloden being on the podium, that was Pharmastrong. When Kloden had to tow LA's punk *** up Verbier. That's when Kloden lost. but Pharmastrong et al pointed fingers to Contador.

:D
I have one issue when people talk about the TTT advantage. They always assume that whatever stage replaced the TTT would have no impact on the race.

What if it had been another regular TT? Only 2 GC guys finished ahead of Lance on the Annecy TT that weren't on his team... Evans (who was WAY back in the standings after Grand Bornand) and Wiggins.

Frank Schleck would have lost MORE on an ITT then a TTT. Wiggins wouldn't have gained enough time to get ahead of Lance. Lance still would have been 3rd.

I'm not sure where you came up with 2 and a half minutes. Astana beat Garmin by 18 seconds, Saxo by 40, and Liquigas by 58.

Even if you assume there wasn't another TT in that place, none of that was enough to put Lance out of 3rd (though Frank would have been very close). If you add another TT with the Annecy results in it's place... Lance stays in 3rd comfortably... right?
 
Aug 6, 2009
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kurtinsc said:
I have one issue when people talk about the TTT advantage. They always assume that whatever stage replaced the TTT would have no impact on the race.

What if it had been another regular TT? Only 2 GC guys finished ahead of Lance on the Annecy TT that weren't on his team... Evans (who was WAY back in the standings after Grand Bornand) and Wiggins.

Frank Schleck would have lost MORE on an ITT then a TTT. Wiggins wouldn't have gained enough time to get ahead of Lance. Lance still would have been 3rd.

I'm not sure where you came up with 2 and a half minutes. Astana beat Garmin by 18 seconds, Saxo by 40, and Liquigas by 58.

Even if you assume there wasn't another TT in that place, none of that was enough to put Lance out of 3rd (though Frank would have been very close). If you add another TT with the Annecy results in it's place... Lance stays in 3rd comfortably... right?
Not quite true. Assuming the hypothetical ITT goes like Annecy Wiggins is ahead of LA by 27 seconds. Assuming the TTT is replaced with a flat state he goes dead even with Frank Schleck. As I said it's possible that LA could have taken more time on Ventoux, but we just can't know that.
 
Nov 17, 2009
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Iker_Baqueiro said:
Because of two things:

1. On the 3rd stage, Lance went against Contador by having his two Astana teammates contribute to the escapade. Plus the Columbia team pals made LA the favor to push the pace hard. Too bad LA couldn't repay Columbia when lord Pharmastrong didn't allow George Hincapie get the yellow jersey a few stages later. LA got 40 seconds from this.

2. The Team Time Trial. Having Contador (Spain TT champion), Leipheimer and Kloden in your TTT was a the advantage. They were the real workhorses. LA got 2.5 minutes from this. After this stage, LA was the closest he'll ever get to the maillot jaune again.

The total time advantage: 3 minutes 10 seconds. Without this, LA would would have finished at most 6th.

By the way, if anyone cut short the chances of Kloden being on the podium, that was Pharmastrong. When Kloden had to tow LA's punk *** up Verbier. That's when Kloden lost. but Pharmastrong et al pointed fingers to Contador.

:D
I disagree about Kloden. Helping lance on Verbier cost Kloden what... 30 seconds maybe? Contador's attack on Grand Bornand that dropped Kloden may have cost him a lot more. If Contador hadn't attacked and Kloden had stayed on with the break... he gains 2 and a half minutes.

Kloden has a right to be annoyed with both of them... but if he were going to be more ****ed at one over the other, I'd think he'd direct more angst toward Contador for asking if he could attack... then when he said no attacking anyway.
 
Feb 7, 2010
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Iker_Baqueiro said:
Because of two things:

1. On the 3rd stage, Lance went against Contador by having his two Astana teammates contribute to the escapade. Plus the Columbia team pals made LA the favor to push the pace hard. Too bad LA couldn't repay Columbia when lord Pharmastrong didn't allow George Hincapie get the yellow jersey a few stages later. LA got 40 seconds from this.

2. The Team Time Trial. Having Contador (Spain TT champion), Leipheimer and Kloden in your TTT was a the advantage. They were the real workhorses. LA got 2.5 minutes from this. After this stage, LA was the closest he'll ever get to the maillot jaune again.

The total time advantage: 3 minutes 10 seconds. Without this, LA would would have finished at most 6th.

By the way, if anyone cut short the chances of Kloden being on the podium, that was Pharmastrong. When Kloden had to tow LA's punk *** up Verbier. That's when Kloden lost. but Pharmastrong et al pointed fingers to Contador.

:D
Yes, LA benefited from a strong team, but my recollection of the TTT is that LA was at least as much of a workhorse who guided the team through some of the more difficult sections of the course.
 
Nov 17, 2009
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Cerberus said:
Not quite true. Assuming the hypothetical ITT goes like Annecy Wiggins is ahead of LA by 27 seconds. Assuming the TTT is replaced with a flat state he goes dead even with Frank Schleck. As I said it's possible that LA could have taken more time on Ventoux, but we just can't know that.
True, I stand corrected.

30 seconds down in 4th with a repeat of Annecy, even with Frank with a flat stage.

Still looking at 4th going into Ventoux either way with a shot at the podium... would have actually made it a lot more entertaining climb. It did look like Lance could have done something.

Big difference then saying he wouldn't have been in contention for a podium spot like some claim.
 
Jun 12, 2009
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I do not buy the Kloden angle some of you are selling. If he was that much stronger than Armstong, he would have simply rode past him (just as Contador did). It makes no sense that an entire team is going to drag a has-been through the tour. Not to mention, most of that team has signed on to do the same thing this year.

You people are blinded by your dislike for Armstrong. Most of you simply hate him. I am indifferent to the guy, but the fact is, he came in 3rd. All the other guys besides Contador and A Schleck came in behind him. If they could not beat a has-been that was being propped up by his stronger teammates, then so much the worse for them.
 
kurtinsc said:
I disagree about Kloden. Helping lance on Verbier cost Kloden what... 30 seconds maybe? Contador's attack on Grand Bornand that dropped Kloden may have cost him a lot more. If Contador hadn't attacked and Kloden had stayed on with the break... he gains 2 and a half minutes.

Kloden has a right to be annoyed with both of them... but if he were going to be more ****ed at one over the other, I'd think he'd direct more angst toward Contador for asking if he could attack... then when he said no attacking anyway.
Simply not accurate. From AC's blog post the same day:

Stage 17
Hi, everybody – Today would’ve been a day to be happy about the situation in the general, but I feel like **** since my teammate Klöden slipped off the back of the leading group after pulling. I talked to him earlier about attacking, and he gave me the OK. I did, the Schleck brothers responded, but Andreas couldn’t. When I saw it, I stopped, but he wasn’t able to get back. Apart from that, we improved the situation in the general with this stage, and physically, I’m feeling good. One less day!!
 
Aug 13, 2009
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kurtinsc said:
I have one issue when people talk about the TTT advantage. They always assume that whatever stage replaced the TTT would have no impact on the race.

What if it had been another regular TT? Only 2 GC guys finished ahead of Lance on the Annecy TT that weren't on his team... Evans (who was WAY back in the standings after Grand Bornand) and Wiggins.

Frank Schleck would have lost MORE on an ITT then a TTT. Wiggins wouldn't have gained enough time to get ahead of Lance. Lance still would have been 3rd.

I'm not sure where you came up with 2 and a half minutes. Astana beat Garmin by 18 seconds, Saxo by 40, and Liquigas by 58.

Even if you assume there wasn't another TT in that place, none of that was enough to put Lance out of 3rd (though Frank would have been very close). If you add another TT with the Annecy results in it's place... Lance stays in 3rd comfortably... right?

This has been reviewed many times. Armstrong would have been 5th if the TTT had been replaced by a 45km TT.
 

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