Vaughters on Astana, Armstrong in 2009 TdF (not good)

[BroDeal]

Of course he did, B. Rass. quoted you.

Maybe we should all start doing that. Don't even quote Carboncrank. Just use an empty quote or put a "@carboncrank" at the top of a post.

 

[the big ring]

Vaughter's little jab was perfect - perfect segue, perfect timing, perfectly subtle.

 

[Ninety5rpm]

“The 2009 Tour route was suited to Brad, but 2010 is less so,” he said. “In 2009, the tactics worked in his favour and Astana were soft-pedalling a bit to not embarrass Lance [Armstrong]."
Source: Jilted manager Jonathan Vaughters still a fan of Bradley Wiggins

Lance is fuming: "I won't be forgetting this comment anytime soon."
http://twitter.com/lancearmstrong

I came here with the intent to start a thread on these very two comments. Obviously cineteq got the scoop, but I didn't see anyone make the point I was going to make.

What about LA bringing attention to this comment to the twitterarti? I mean here is a professional colleague contending that Lance's team soft-pedaled for him. The anger I get, but why publicize it?

I think this clearly shows that LA really believes that JV's contention is false. So either JV is wrong, or LA is delusional. Which is it? I really have no idea.

 

[Race Radio]

I came here with the intent to start a thread on these very two comments. Obviously cineteq got the scoop, but I didn't see anyone make the point I was going to make.

What about LA bringing attention to this comment to the twitterarti? I mean here is a professional colleague contending that Lance's team soft-pedaled for him. The anger I get, but why publicize it?

I think this clearly shows that LA really believes that JV's contention is false. So either JV is wrong, or LA is delusional. Which is it? I really have no idea.

I think we can all agree that LA is delusional

 

[richwagmn]

Yes, LA benefited from a strong team, but my recollection of the TTT is that LA was at least as much of a workhorse who guided the team through some of the more difficult sections of the course.

Guided the team through the TTT? Huh???

Is this Bob Roll?

 

[BroDeal]

Guided the team through the TTT? Huh???

Is this Bob Roll?

Okay, that's funny.

 

[Publicus]

I came here with the intent to start a thread on these very two comments. Obviously cineteq got the scoop, but I didn't see anyone make the point I was going to make.

What about LA bringing attention to this comment to the twitterarti? I mean here is a professional colleague contending that Lance's team soft-pedaled for him. The anger I get, but why publicize it?

I think this clearly shows that LA really believes that JV's contention is false. So either JV is wrong, or LA is delusional. Which is it? I really have no idea.

I disagree. If he clearly thought it was false, he would have said so. Plus, as I noted earlier in the thread, AC said something similar (that there were a couple of instances where he wanted the team to ride faster so he could get a bigger advantage).

I think he was embarrassed and used bravado to mask it. So what if he won't forget it, what's he going to do about it? Make Bruyneel push the pace on Arcalis? Too late for that. Push the tempo on Verbier? Definitely too late for that. He should have just laughed it off or said something snarky. Water off a duck's back, or something like that.

 

[Galic Ho]

I have one issue when people talk about the TTT advantage. They always assume that whatever stage replaced the TTT would have no impact on the race.

What if it had been another regular TT? Only 2 GC guys finished ahead of Lance on the Annecy TT that weren't on his team... Evans (who was WAY back in the standings after Grand Bornand) and Wiggins.

Forget LLS? Come on Lance was a minute behind these guys.

Frank Schleck would have lost MORE on an ITT then a TTT. Wiggins wouldn't have gained enough time to get ahead of Lance. Lance still would have been 3rd.

Wiggins would have put a minute into Lance and so would have Kloden. Lance drops two positions then. The other side effect of no TTT would have been the Schleck's going faster in the hills and this means Ventoux would have been a show. They lost less time in the TTT than they would have in a ITT. Necessity is the mother of all inventiveness. They'd have gone faster in the hills. Frank goes ahead of Lance as I see it. Lance drops to 6th.

Even if you assume there wasn't another TT in that place, none of that was enough to put Lance out of 3rd (though Frank would have been very close). If you add another TT with the Annecy results in it's place... Lance stays in 3rd comfortably... right?

As above. No. I think you're wrong. But it doesn't matter. I think Lance would have dropped easily to 5th and possibly 6th. Wiggins would have put a minute into Lance in the ITT and there goes 3rd. Kloden, too, so he'd be very close. Actually he'd have been ahead of Lance on GC at that stage. Debatable if he'd have then performed the role he actually did in the Alps. Add in the faster Schleck attacks and it is a whole different top 5. Lance benefited beyond a shadow of a doubt from the stage 3 breakaway, the TTT and a sacrificial lamb (Kloden).

 

[Galic Ho]

I disagree about Kloden. Helping lance on Verbier cost Kloden what... 30 seconds maybe? Contador's attack on Grand Bornand that dropped Kloden may have cost him a lot more. If Contador hadn't attacked and Kloden had stayed on with the break... he gains 2 and a half minutes.

Kloden has a right to be annoyed with both of them... but if he were going to be more ****ed at one over the other, I'd think he'd direct more angst toward Contador for asking if he could attack... then when he said no attacking anyway.

Time to put on the thinking cap. Kloden was dropped for one reason on stage 17. He was done and didn't realise. He dropped back behind Lance, who was over 2 mintues in arrears when Contador went. AC even asked Kloden, who was fine with the move. Kloden only had to hold the Schleck's wheel, which he couldn't. He was spent. Contador slowed and waited for him but there was no point. Kloden was gone. Not Contadors fault.

Is it plausible that he was told to sit up and wait for Lance? Yes it is. Either way, Kloden was going to be dropped by Contador and the Schleck brothers before the summit. He was at the back and struggling. I don't think he realised how badly until Contador went. Kloden was going to lose time on that mountain, I just don't think it was meant to be more than Lance. I think he slowed more than needed to deliberately give Lance a time boost on himself. We all know the coup de etat now known as the Shack, was already in full swing. Andreas needs a job people. He's gotta eat, sleep and $h!t somewhere!

 

[Ferminal]

Guided the team through the TTT? Huh???

Is this Bob Roll?

Be nice, B1 and B2 said he was working hard in the TTT, so he must have been.

 

[cotterpin]

rtms

I think it was Bikesnob NYC who said that Kloden is just one Freiburg phone call away from the lip-and-anus station at the Vienna Schnitzel factory--he's happy just to have a job in the sport. He's not the guy to complain about any role he's paid to play.

3 cheers 4 bsny and his canny insights!

I can't wait 4 some Garmin v RadioShack v Astana racing!
Let the fun begin! O wait it already has(eg schnitzel & soft pedal-yes)

 

[Cerberus]

As above. No. I think you're wrong. But it doesn't matter. I think Lance would have dropped easily to 5th and possibly 6th. Wiggins would have put a minute into Lance in the ITT and there goes 3rd. Kloden, too, so he'd be very close. Actually he'd have been ahead of Lance on GC at that stage. Debatable if he'd have then performed the role he actually did in the Alps. Add in the faster Schleck attacks and it is a whole different top 5. Lance benefited beyond a shadow of a doubt from the stage 3 breakaway, the TTT and a sacrificial lamb (Kloden).

Listen, I already went through this, ITT puts Wiggins past LA, but not Klöden. Yes it is possible that The race would have unfolded differently, but again there's no guaranties that it would or that it would be bad for Armstrong if it did. Also there's no way in hell losing more time to LA magically puts Frank Schleck ahead of LA. That's just crazy talk, no amount of wishful thinking will turn a time loss into an advantage. An ITT most likely places LA somewhere between 3rd and 5th.

ETA: If anyone pushes past LA for 5th because of an ITT it's Nibali, because unlike Frank Schleck he can actually TT somewhat. Still less likely than LA hanging on, but at least it's possible.

 

[Galic Ho]

Let's not forget anything made by an American company. Their tax money goes to fund the current--not seventy years ago--genocide of the Palestinians.

Thought this would be less offensive.

 

[Cerberus]

Don't make me laugh dude. The Palestinians were offered a nation by the UN back in the 1940s. ...

Can you and Brodeal please keep politics in the Cafe?

 

[Galic Ho]

Listen, I already went through this, ITT puts Wiggins past LA, but not Klöden. Yes it is possible that The race would have unfolded differently, but again there's no guaranties that it would or that it would be bad for Armstrong if it did. Also there's no way in hell losing more time to LA magically puts Frank Schleck ahead of LA. That's just crazy talk, no amount of wishful thinking will turn a time loss into an advantage. An ITT most likely places LA somewhere between 3rd and 5th.

ETA: If anyone pushes past LA for 5th because of an ITT it's Nibali, because unlike Frank Schleck he can actually TT somewhat. Still less likely than LA hanging on, but at least it's possible.

You misread my quote. I was saying both Kloden and Wiggins put a minute into Lance if they switch the TTT for a ITT. Did you read my reasoning? This change meant the Schelcks lost more time than the 40 seconds they did in the ITT and have to go faster in the mountains. Lance was not as effective as everyone believes in the mountains. Hence, with Kloden ahead of him and the Schlecks pulling no strings the racing would have been harder in the Alps. Lose, lose scenario for Lance. Who cares anyway, this thread is about JV and Lance.

As for the Vaughters quote and LA's tweet. Boo-hoo. LA has said much worse. The reaction was for the mindless acolytes following his worship. Get them fired up. Keep it up JV. Come in spinner.

 

[Galic Ho]

Can you and Brodeal please keep politics in the Cafe?

Yeah I can do that. Can you keep the 2009 Tour talk in the appropriate thread? Not to be nit picking but when someone mentions an off topic idea, like you did earlier in the thread, they open the door to a reply. To keep it fair everyone needs to abide by the philosophy. Doesn't happen often. But I'll try in future.

 

[Ripper]

OK ... annnnd back to the OP ...

JV and LA have a history, and it ain't full of love. LA has been a douche to JV and Vaughters will chip away at LA and irritate the sh*t out of the insecure douche.

 

[blackcat]

Don't make me laugh dude. The Palestinians were offered a nation by the UN back in the 1940s. They refused because they were offered less land. Two more offers, both rejected. Palestinians are mentally bankrupt. Morally pretty close as well. Take this as an example of their fine character. After the Australians, Kiwis and British liberated, what is now known as Isreal, Jordan, Syria, Iraq and Lebanaon from the Turkish in 1918, they left the area. The Australian Light Horsemen could not bring back their horses. Their options, leave them to the people who now call themselves Palestinians (they are mostly from Jordan and Syria) or shoot them. Being of such low calibre character, the Palestinians were not an option. They shot their own horses who had carried them through the worlds most devastating war. Revealing? Hell yeah!

As for genocide. Studied it extensively in high school. Palestinians are not on the list. Strapping bombs to your chest, screaming some arabic obscenity and dreaming of Allah whilst running at Israeli soldiers makes you a murderer. Same goes for hijacking schools to shoot rockets across the border. That's asking to get whacked. For crying out loud, the PLO and the current psuedo Palestinian govt Hamas, are terrorist organisations. They are classified as such by both the Australian and American govt's. Palestinians as a people are collective morons of the finest order.

Galic, can you do me a favour and edit this, it is about the most racist screed I have seen here on CN. Otherwise, I gotta report it.

 

[BroDeal]

Palestinians as a people are collective morons of the finest order.

Yeah, let's take their land, put them under unending occupation, kill any who oppose living as cockroaches, and hope they disappear so we can take even more of their land. After all they are morons, barely even human. It serves them right.

 

[Cerberus]

You misread my quote. I was saying both Kloden and Wiggins put a minute into Lance if they switch the TTT for a ITT. Did you read my reasoning? This change meant the Schelcks lost more time than the 40 seconds they did in the ITT and have to go faster in the mountains. Lance was not as effective as everyone believes in the mountains. Hence, with Kloden ahead of him and the Schlecks pulling no strings the racing would have been harder in the Alps

Andy Schleck wouldn't lose much more than 40 seconds, less to some contenders. He'd still be ahead after the second TT. As for Frank he tried to take 40 second of time on Ventoux and failed. There is no reason to think he could have taken 1,5-2 minutes. Where would this have happened? Saxo Bank already worked hard on Stage 17, and if Andy could have riden harder without dropping Frank he probably would have. Frank failed to take time on Ventoux. So yes I did read your reasoning and it doesn't hold water. an ITT might have pushed Wiggins and Klöden past LA, but it would have hurt Frank.

Yeah I can do that. Can you keep the 2009 Tour talk in the appropriate thread? Not to be nit picking but when someone mentions an off topic idea, like you did earlier in the thread, they open the door to a reply. To keep it fair everyone needs to abide by the philosophy. Doesn't happen often. But I'll try in future.

I am keeping the 2009 Tour talk in the appropriate thread. We're discussing a quote from Vaughters about LA's 2009 Tour Performance and I'm discussing LA's 2009 Tour Performance. I suppose you could say that talking about the what effect variations of the route would have had on LA's 2009 Tour performance is thread drift, but it's very minor thread drift and I wasn't the one who mentioned it first.

 

[BroDeal]

Andy Schleck wouldn't lose much more than 40 seconds, less to some contenders. He'd still be ahead after the second TT. As for Frank he tried to take 40 second of time on Ventoux and failed. There is no reason to think he could have taken 1,5-2 minutes. Where would this have happened? Saxo Bank already worked hard on Stage 17, and if Andy could have riden harder without dropping Frank he probably would have. Frank failed to take time on Ventoux. So yes I did read your reasoning and it doesn't hold water. an ITT might have pushed Wiggins and Klöden past LA, but it would have hurt Frank.

Frank had a bad day on Ventoux. I don't think he was trying to put time into anyone. He was just trying not to lose any.

 

[Cerberus]

Frank had a bad day on Ventoux. I don't think he was trying to put time into anyone. He was just trying not to lose any.

He might have had a bad day, but he was very clearly trying to get into the podium. He attacked several times. If you don't want to take my word for it you can re-watch the climb. There really is no doubt what happened.

 

[progressor]

Don't make me laugh dude. The Palestinians were offered a nation by the UN back in the 1940s. They refused because they were offered less land. Two more offers, both rejected. Palestinians are mentally bankrupt. Morally pretty close as well. Take this as an example of their fine character. After the Australians, Kiwis and British liberated, what is now known as Isreal, Jordan, Syria, Iraq and Lebanaon from the Turkish in 1918, they left the area. The Australian Light Horsemen could not bring back their horses. Their options, leave them to the people who now call themselves Palestinians (they are mostly from Jordan and Syria) or shoot them. Being of such low calibre character, the Palestinians were not an option. They shot their own horses who had carried them through the worlds most devastating war. Revealing? Hell yeah!

As for genocide. Studied it extensively in high school. Palestinians are not on the list. Strapping bombs to your chest, screaming some arabic obscenity and dreaming of Allah whilst running at Israeli soldiers makes you a murderer. Same goes for hijacking schools to shoot rockets across the border. That's asking to get whacked. For crying out loud, the PLO and the current psuedo Palestinian govt Hamas, are terrorist organisations. They are classified as such by both the Australian and American govt's. Palestinians as a people are collective morons of the finest order.

Nasty little spiel there. You wouldn't be jewish by some chance would you?

 

[Cerberus]

Nasty little spiel there. You wouldn't be jewish by some chance would you?

The Cafe is this way.

 

[Galic Ho]

Nasty little spiel there. You wouldn't be jewish by some chance would you?

Not a chance dude. My lineage is Anglo Saxon. Mothers side are basically Irish and my dads side immigrated from England in the 1860s after leaving Ireland a century before. Other parts are Scottish, with maybe a touch of German (though I can't prove that bit). Not a chance I share any dna within 5 centuries of anyone from the middle east, let alone Jewish ancestry. No pun or offense intended there.

I realise that might have peeved some people off so I apologise. Was trying to even the plate for argument sake, balance it out a bit. I see certain parts of the US and European media tarring opinion pieces without giving both sides of the story. What I wrote was meant in a matter of fact manner, the tone was not meant in a F%&K you manner. So apologies to those upset.

Back to the OP. Who is going to support Vandevelde this year? Zabriskie and Millar? Will we see some of the young aussies? Anyone heard anything? Will Tommy D make a Tour appearance. That would be a nice addition, cause that boy is a solid climber, despite his dietary woes due to his genetics. No pun intended at those with Inuit ancestry.