Vaughter's Spine

[Susan Westemeyer]

EDIT: I am now re-opening this thread. The topic is Jonathan Vaughters and his anti-doping stance. STICK TO THIS TOPIC.

Anyone going off-topic will be sanctioned. Anyone who inserts politics in this thread in any way, shape or form will be automatically given a one-week suspension with no further warning.

We have a thread in the Cafe for politics. Discuss it there, and only there.

Thanks.





I am temporarily closing this thread so that I can read through it and decide what, if any, permanent actionis necessary.

Susan

 

[buckwheat]

EDIT: I am now re-opening this thread. The topic is Jonathan Vaughters and his anti-doping stance. STICK TO THIS TOPIC.

Anyone going off-topic will be sanctioned. Anyone who inserts politics in this thread in any way, shape or form will be automatically given a one-week suspension with no further warning.

We have a thread in the Cafe for politics. Discuss it there, and only there.

Thanks.





I am temporarily closing this thread so that I can read through it and decide what, if any, permanent actionis necessary.

Susan

He appears to be against doping.

It's hard to be sure of that though.

 

[flicker]

He appears to be against doping.

It's hard to be sure of that though.

Jonathon has a knowledge of cycling I will never have and I trust him. He is respected in the community of sport. Good enough for me.

 

[buckwheat]

Jonathon has a knowledge of cycling I will never have and I trust him. He is respected in the community of sport. Good enough for me.

I would assume most pro's and DS' do. Do you trust them?

It seems to me by the snarky title of the thread, is Vaughters trustworthy?

 

[fatandfast]

It's called, upping the ante.

Hint, when you have a widely held truth, and you have info which can destroy the opponent, you ALWAYS up the ante.

WTF is the point of winning a bike race, or living for that matter, if you aren't going to proceed under those circumstances.

In this way I have a lot of respect for Pharmstrong. At least he has a ball.

This is the same exact reason why LeMond was kicking himself for backing down.

He knows if he upped the ante in 2001 he would have destroyed Lance, and/or been able to live with himself.

Not sure if my comment about Lemond/Vaughters made you blow a gasket..if so it was not intended. Lemond is a great champion..period. He sees something wrong in the sport that has made him who he is..he has opinions and methods to correct the problem that people like Vaughters disagree with..even if very slightly. JV was also a good racer and has made a huge impact on modern cycling. Most modern cyclists can identify with Vaughters and the brands/racers he represents. Garmin has a multilevel marketing penetration that includes outdoor sports/activities as well as products for auto/truck and marine markets. Vaughter's interest in cycling will be severely damaged by adopting a Lemond style of speech in pursuit of a cleaner sport. Vaughters and people like him understand that some of the lure of bike racing has to do with it's history. Lemond also knows a bit about cycling history..he made lots of it. Taking down bike racing idols previously/currently popular should be done under enormous caution..I personally respect JV's slow approach..it's a rifle and shotgun difference..1 hits a very small precise target the other injures lots of innocent people with a shattered shot pattern. No matter what is said about his backbone..he is a decent guy to wait for the verdict(facts) to come out before spouting a bunch of BS

 

[flicker]

I would assume most pro's and DS' do. Do you trust them?

It seems to me by the snarky title of the thread, is Vaughters trustworthy?

Some DS I do not trust at all. Some people I do not trust at all. Pro athletes to be honest I trust not at all(as far as doping)

Most here know more than me. But to really stop doping as I guess most in the clinic do, I believe guys like Vaughters who have seen doping from the inside out know the players and who to avoid are able to do more to clean up doping in cycling.

An analogy would be who would you expect could do more to help an addict in recovery? I would say a recovered addict. Like 12 step programs not everyone is going to make it. You cannot blame the program for that as we are adults we all make choices and are responsible for our own actions.

 

[Siriuscat]

....I'd been typing a great response but......

Anyway, JV has the balls to come on here with a bunch of faceless keyboard warriors and put his case, I can respect that so thanks (Think the shirts need more Argyle though, JV ;-) ).

Does JV know more about doping than he's will to spout on here, damn right he does. He is at the sharp end of the sport not sitting behind a keyboard like the rest of us and as such the pressures on him and every DS are hugely different to what we might try to assume. If his stance was not anti-doping and pushing the "Clean Team" then along with our texan "friend" it's another of those lies that appear mainstream in Pro Cycling, whether we as cycling fans like it or not.

Personally I'm willing to respect what he says and the message that the team puts across, I can accept others views but don't disrespect the guy for coming on here to argue in person. The sport can only change from within, the teams, most definately the UCI and the organisers it won't happen overnight.

 

[Benotti69]

He appears to be against doping.

It's hard to be sure of that though.

I think JV play his cards very close to his chest. He is anti doping but is very guarded how he presents it. He appears to be trying to do the right thing, but it is not an absolute and we probably won't be sure till he is finished with cycling.

 

[Digger]

Ok well for the record I edited my posts in page two and three for information I clearly got wrong about him actually testifying at the SCA trial and for that I want to apologise.
I admire JV for coming on here. However in a way I also admire Buckwheat for being honest, because it would be very easy to change his tune and start licking a** because he knew for a fact that JV was on here.


Jonathon, I think this interview was exasperating for me to read two and a half years ago. Here is an excerpt which surmises why.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/more_sport/cycling/article4232249.ece

“Jonathan, I don’t understand what your problem is here,” I reply, exasperated. “It’s a valid question. I’m not going to walk away from it.”

“I’m not asking you to walk away from it,” he says. “I can see that you are trying to establish a background and that’s fine but what I’m saying is that I’m just not going to talk about it and that’s it. You can take that however you want.”

I take it badly. He doesn’t flinch. Later that evening, I’m venting my frustrations to his wife, Alisa, at dinner when she suddenly makes sense of him. “The thing you have to remember about Jonathan,” she smiles, “is that he’s the son of an attorney.”



In relation to the IM, I guess it's quotes like the following which were a little disappointing:
"It was a gossipy conversation between two people."
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/and...ped-about-us-postals-alleged-doping-practices

Jonathon, i think you know full well that the IM was more that a 'gosspiy conversation'.


And then this finally about AC last year:
"We'd be interested," Vaughters said.
"I like Alberto a lot," Vaughters said. "He wants to win the Tour de France. He'd rather take a winning team over a big paycheck. Our team is capable of propelling him to win the Tour de France."
http://www.denverpost.com/sports/ci_12919159


Jonathon for me you were interested in AC, when someone like David said the following:

It’s sad to see Vinokourov and Ramussen win races and get taken down the next day.

DW: Why is it sad? They’re cheating. It’s sad that they cheat, but it’s good news when they get caught. What is sad is that the guy who’s wearing the yellow jersey now, Alberto Contador, is definitely cheating.

M: How can you tell he’s cheating?

DW: Michael Rasmussen went up the Gourette-Col d'Aubisque faster than Lance Armstrong ever went up it. Alberto Contador was alongside him the whole way. I’ve been at that race since the early 80s and I know what speeds they go up that mountain. The speeds the leaders go up at today are just illogical.
http://www.macleans.ca/canada/features/article.jsp?content=20070727_150415_8508

 

[SirLes]

Personally I think what JV has done is the best thing to promote clean cycling.

With regards him whistle blowing IMO he's clearly intelligent and knows that it would be pointless. It's hard enough to get a conviction when someone is caught red handed or fails a drug test anyway so unless he could provide sufficient evidence for a water tight case that would yield an conviction it would be a waste of time. It would also provide yet more negative publicity.

The future is more important than the past. JV's best way to have a positive impact is to build a team with the correct ethics and provide a platform for riders who feel the same way he does. There may always be dopers who get away with it and win races but there should also be the opportunity for people to race clean: something that appears not always to have been the case.

My biggest complaint about Greg Lemond is that he hasn't done something similar.

Finally, if you haven't totally given up on this thread JV1973, can you please let the Cervelo design team produce the new jerseys. The CTT Jersey was fantastic whereas the Garmin one was perhaps less successful from a visual perspective

 

[python]

I would assume most pro's and DS' do. Do you trust them?

It seems to me by the snarky title of the thread, is Vaughters trustworthy?

bucky, unlike you (considering you own about half the posts in this thread) i dont understand WHY vaughters is not trustworthy ?

could you oblige in a bullet form (but not necessarily) ? thanks.

 

[Digger]

Personally I think what JV has done is the best thing to promote clean cycling.

With regards him whistle blowing IMO he's clearly intelligent and knows that it would be pointless. It's hard enough to get a conviction when someone is caught red handed or fails a drug test anyway so unless he could provide sufficient evidence for a water tight case that would yield an conviction it would be a waste of time. It would also provide yet more negative publicity.

The future is more important than the past. JV's best way to have a positive impact is to build a team with the correct ethics and provide a platform for riders who feel the same way he does. There may always be dopers who get away with it and win races but there should also be the opportunity for people to race clean: something that appears not always to have been the case.

My biggest complaint about Greg Lemond is that he hasn't done something similar.

Finally, if you haven't totally given up on this thread JV1973, can you please let the Cervelo design team produce the new jerseys. The CTT Jersey was fantastic whereas the Garmin one was perhaps less successful from a visual perspective

Those Who Consciously Ignore the Past Condemn Us to Repeat It

 

[flicker]

I agree with what Sir Les says, it is time to move forward. I think that is what Team Slipstream is all about. I learn this from women and kids, put your best foot forward and keep going towards the future. Time to leave the baggage behind. Also the Cervelo Jerseys looked like bike jerseys should.

 

[Benotti69]

I agree with what Sir Les says, it is time to move forward. I think that is what Team Slipstream is all about. I learn this from women and kids, put your best foot forward and keep going towards the future. Time to leave the baggage behind. Also the Cervelo Jerseys looked like bike jerseys should.

Does that mean in 'Flicky speak', let armstrong off the hook

 

[flicker]

Does that mean in 'Flicky speak', let armstrong off the hook

the answer is of course yes. also contador won the tour, he cheated most likely but he still won it. time to move on.

This is about Vaughters. He shows that he does everything in his powers to do the right thing. It may not be the way LeMond does it but there is only one LeMond.

Now is now, lets move to the future, forget Contador and Lance, their hayday is over. I will call that from the minaret .

 

[Benotti69]

the answer is of course yes. also contador won the tour, he cheated most likely but he still won it. time to move on.

This is about Vaughters. He shows that he does everything in his powers to do the right thing. It may not be the way LeMond does it but there is only one LeMond.

Now is now, lets move to the future, forget Contador and Lance, their hayday is over. I will call that from the minaret .

That is pathetic and I imagine JV would dimiss it as the pish it is..

 

[Roland Rat]

What a thread. Someone needs to visit the Moonlite BunnyRanch.

 

[flicker]

That is pathetic and I imagine JV would dimiss it as the pish it is..

Don't get to hung up on those guys. Remember their trainers, handlers sponsors etc. You need to watch those guys. Remember the horse races those horses get old but the trainers and sponsors are still in there.

 

[buckwheat]

bucky, unlike you (considering you own about half the posts in this thread) i dont understand WHY vaughters is not trustworthy ?

could you oblige in a bullet form (but not necessarily) ? thanks.

Yeah, no problem.

The title of the thread is Vaughters' spine.

What does that imply?

If we were just having an academic discussion, would JV come out on the correct side of the doping issue? I believe he would.

So the question becomes, why do some not believe that JV is in fact coming out on the right side of the doping issue?

Why would some question his intestinal fortitude on this issue? They believe he's backed down on speaking the truth to power?

What is he afraid of?

What are the consequences of speaking freely about an issue that constitutes sporting fraud?

Who are the powers?

How powerful are they?

Why aren't the reigning powers truthful or are they being truthful?

Does anyone know what will happen if there is total transparency, or what happens if the current trends whatever they are continue?

What does it mean to say that someone has a spine?

What is the classification of this kind of question? By that I mean, what realm does the implied question of the thread fall into, sports, culture, morality, or some area which has been deemed off limits by the guardians of these threads?

Does having a spine regarding the issue we are talking about here, have anything to do with a ideally pure sporting competition of riding a bike?

Getting back to your question. I understand why Vaughters may not be trustworthy in the real world.

I believe it comes down to the answer to the question of what it means to have a spine.

What a thread. Someone needs to visit the Moonlite BunnyRanch.

I have a good sense of humor but it does really bother me for posts like this to be allowed and other more relevant posts to be disallowed.

I assure you I can give and take with anyone on here, but passive aggressive behavior disturbs me a great deal.

I'd be more than happy with a free for all, free flowing discussion, but the powers that be have dictated certain parameters which I believe seriously hinder getting to the root of things.

 

[Anonymous]

What a thread. Someone needs to visit the Moonlite BunnyRanch.

Why do you think i opted out at about page 3.

 

[eleven]

Hang on. I draw the line at Vaughters. He’s a great man. None of you have any idea what’s done for the anti-doping movement. We should remember he’s anti-doping not anti-Lance. His involvement at the SCA trial was very small. All that he was questioned on was if he saw doping during Armstrong’s 5th win. Which of course he didn’t. He also provided an avadavat that the IM with Frankie was more “social gossip” than fact which is also true. JV has spoken many times to ASO, the UCI and WADA about doping. He’s provided more than enough information to them to combat doping. Just because he doesn’t speak to the press about doesn’t mean he not doing something. How many times do we complain when someone spills there guts to the press. JV’s a good man. We can thank him for a lot. Take your mind back to 2006. The sport was truly FU. At the time to set up a clean Pro-Tour team was madness. But he did it and look at them now.

Did you type all that with a straight face?

 

[ferryman]

Why do you think i opted out at about page 3.

He does seem quite a guy though. Phoning up the main man at an 'iconic' organisation. His name on letter heads etc. And then been sacked for having a bad back!

 

[miloman]

First time pop-in to the thread. This is the best thread I've read in months! Keep it up. I too think JV sits on the fence too much. He's talking, but is he really saying anything . . . no!

 

[ferryman]

First time pop-in to the thread. This is the best thread I've read in months! Keep it up. I too think JV sits on the fence too much. He's talking, but is he really saying anything . . . no!

Did you really read what JV posted, really?

 

[flicker]

Why do you think i opted out at about page 3.

Busy thinking ways to antaganize Johann. Note to myself do I have enough frequent flyer miles added up for a round trip ticket to Zambia or will it only be one way......